Pretty sure I'm spiralling -- OCI grades

[moonfox19]

As the title suggests, I'm pretty sure I'm losing it. When I first got my 1L grades back, I was sure I was in a good place for the upcoming OCI cycle and was relatively happy about it. However, I just had an appointment with career services and was essentially told that I may not have a good shot at firms like Lenczner Slaght because my grades are not strong enough. Now I'm spiralling out. Grades are as follows: A-, A-. A-, B+, B+, B+, B. -- the A-'s are in con law, contracts, and property. I definitely realize I objectively will get interviews, but am I out of the running for more 'academic' firms? Any advice or words whipping me into perspective are appreciated. 

[Lawllapalooza]

I interviewed with Lenczner with a slightly lower average. Your grades are strong. Write a good cover letter and breathe.

[Dussy]

I am no expert, but those grades look solid. Should be fine

[pinball]

Which school's career department is giving out advice like this? You're likely to get an interview there, and then the rest is up to you.

[luckycharm]

50 minutes ago, moonfox19 said:

As the title suggests, I'm pretty sure I'm losing it. When I first got my 1L grades back, I was sure I was in a good place for the upcoming OCI cycle and was relatively happy about it. However, I just had an appointment with career services and was essentially told that I may not have a good shot at firms like Lenczner Slaght because my grades are not strong enough. Now I'm spiralling out. Grades are as follows: A-, A-. A-, B+, B+, B+, B. -- the A-'s are in con law, contracts, and property. I definitely realize I objectively will get interviews, but am I out of the running for more 'academic' firms? Any advice or words whipping me into perspective are appreciated. 

You have a better than B+ average and I think you will have more than 10 OCI.  

Firms don't hire just based on "grades" alone. 

[johnny.rahmbo]

4 minutes ago, pinball said:

Which school's career department is giving out advice like this? You're likely to get an interview there, and then the rest is up to you.

I would love to know this also - seems like they need to re-think their approach to helping students through a difficult process. 

[luckycharm]

Just now, boundless2.0 said:

I would love to know this also - seems like they need to re-think their approach to helping students through a difficult process. 

Not really encouraging. 

[johnny.rahmbo]

13 minutes ago, luckycharm said:

Not really encouraging. 

not at all.

[Ryn]

1 hour ago, pinball said:

Which school's career department is giving out advice like this? You're likely to get an interview there, and then the rest is up to you.

Seriously. Whoever said that to you either doesn't know how firms hire or was previously a student rep at Davies.

Those grades are good and will get you many interviews, even at Lenczner Slaght. You don't need to have an A average or be a medalist to get a bunch of OCIs.

[moonfox19]

Thanks everyone for the reassurance and letting me take a much needed breath of relief! That appointment really rocked my world lol -- the advisor literally told me that I had to be in the top 5%! Super glad to know that my grades are at least enough to get my foot in the door.

[Dussy]

16 minutes ago, Ryn said:

Seriously. Whoever said that to you either doesn't know how firms hire or was previously a student rep at Davies.

Those grades are good and will get you many interviews, even at Lenczner Slaght. You don't need to have an A average or be a medalist to get a bunch of OCIs.

As an aside, what is competitive for Davies? Top 10%?

[Ryn]

11 minutes ago, Dussy said:

As an aside, what is competitive for Davies? Top 10%?

I said that a bit tongue in cheek. I don't know what is required to get an interview at Davies, but I presume it's generally higher than the average Bay Street firm. But to give you an idea of how much they care about grades, when the strike was happening at Osgoode and students had the option of selecting pass/fail for their last term that year, Davies emailed everyone and said, liberally paraphrasing, our people don't do that. We're the best of the best and taking pass/fail will be a severe strike against you. Which is, of course, illustrative of not only how out of touch they were with what actually went down at Osgoode that final term for some people, but even if they had an inkling, which I'm sure they must have had, how much they don't care.

Edited June 9, 2021 by Ryn

[Kashi]

You don't absolutely need high grades to interview at Lenczner Slaght (although it definitely helps). I know a person that interviewed at LS with average/below-average grades. However, he/she had significant litigation experience and a very, very strong demonstrated interest in advocacy. So focus on getting that experience. 

Also: I typed up the above before actually examining your marks. Your marks are significantly above average. You're fine. Just show litigation interest if you want to go to LS. I'm leaving what I typed up above, though, in case there are students with average/below-average marks. 

[chaboywb]

When did LS become the gold standard? I didnt get an OCI from any of the seven sister firms (for whatever that's worth) but got an OCI with LS. With lower grades than OP and average experience.

[chicken]

Students with worse grades gets lenczner interviews. Students with better or equivalent grades also don’t.

You can’t predict if you fit the profile firms are looking for. Even if you have the grades, there is often reasons they may not interview you based on your extracurriculars, and their internal demands for future associates with a certain trait.

I had similar grades, and I interviewed with Lenczner. However, their were several other bay st firms that you may consider “better” or “worse” that didn’t interview me.

This goes to say, don’t be dead set on a firm, because you never know. Apply widely, and the interviews will come. If you have an excellent cover letter, you can expect 20 OCI’s (a full day). I know several people who got a full day of OCI’s with worse grades. Just don’t be too picky on what firm it is.

With that said, this forum/ls.ca across the board underestimates how much OCI’s people get. OCI’s are notably much easier to get than people make it seem. 

[Avatar Aang]

42 minutes ago, chaboywb said:

When did LS become the gold standard? I didnt get an OCI from any of the seven sister firms (for whatever that's worth) but got an OCI with LS. With lower grades than OP and average experience.

This is an apples to oranges comparison. Lenczner Slaght is one of the gold standard firms for a career in litigation. Litigation boutiques like this are better than any full-service firm if you want to do litigation. 

[QMT20]

3 hours ago, moonfox19 said:

As the title suggests, I'm pretty sure I'm losing it. When I first got my 1L grades back, I was sure I was in a good place for the upcoming OCI cycle and was relatively happy about it. However, I just had an appointment with career services and was essentially told that I may not have a good shot at firms like Lenczner Slaght because my grades are not strong enough. Now I'm spiralling out. Grades are as follows: A-, A-. A-, B+, B+, B+, B. -- the A-'s are in con law, contracts, and property. I definitely realize I objectively will get interviews, but am I out of the running for more 'academic' firms? Any advice or words whipping me into perspective are appreciated. 

People I knew who had 2 A- and the rest of their grades in the B-range got OCIs from Lenczner and Paliare. That person didn't get an in firm interview from them but they managed to secure an OCI so I don't think your grades make you uncompetitive for those firms. 

I also knew someone with 3 A's, 2 B+, 2 B's in my year at Queen's who received an OCI from Davies so I don't think you're out of the running for them either. Although, another student I knew who had 2 A's, 3+, and 2 B's did not receive an OCI from Davies. 

I honestly didn't know Davies was such a desirable firm until I started using this website. I actually didn't apply to Davies in the 2L recruit and I knew a couple people who were roughly in the top 10% of our class that turned down their offer for in firms for other firms. 

[chaboywb]

35 minutes ago, Avatar Aang said:

This is an apples to oranges comparison. Lenczner Slaght is one of the gold standard firms for a career in litigation. Litigation boutiques like this are better than any full-service firm if you want to do litigation. 

I know their reputation is as one of the best, I just meant in terms of getting interviews with them. 

[BlockedQuebecois]

4 hours ago, Avatar Aang said:

This is an apples to oranges comparison. Lenczner Slaght is one of the gold standard firms for a career in litigation. Litigation boutiques like this are better than any full-service firm if you want to do litigation. 

Lenczner is a great firm, but it’s not better than any full service firm if you want to do lit. 

Lit boutiques are great, and they definitely have advantages over full-service firms for litigators, but they also have disadvantages. Whether a strong lit boutique like Lenczner or NST is better or worse than a top tier lit group at a full service firm is going to depend on the individual’s career aspirations and areas of interest. 

[Ben]

28 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

Lenczner is a great firm, but it’s not better than any full service firm if you want to do lit. 

Lit boutiques are great, and they definitely have advantages over full-service firms for litigators, but they also have disadvantages. Whether a strong lit boutique like Lenczner or NST is better or worse than a top tier lit group at a full service firm is going to depend on the individual’s career aspirations and areas of interest. 

What disadvantages do you have in mind?

[Psychometronic]

11 hours ago, moonfox19 said:

As the title suggests, I'm pretty sure I'm losing it. When I first got my 1L grades back, I was sure I was in a good place for the upcoming OCI cycle and was relatively happy about it. However, I just had an appointment with career services and was essentially told that I may not have a good shot at firms like Lenczner Slaght because my grades are not strong enough. Now I'm spiralling out. Grades are as follows: A-, A-. A-, B+, B+, B+, B. -- the A-'s are in con law, contracts, and property. I definitely realize I objectively will get interviews, but am I out of the running for more 'academic' firms? Any advice or words whipping me into perspective are appreciated. 

You'll be fine. After the recruit, you may look at at this post and chuckle at your former self for being so worked up over this.

[moonfox19]

3 minutes ago, Psychometronic said:

You'll be fine. After the recruit, you may look at at this post and chuckle at your former self for being so worked up over this.

The logical part of my brain knows that you're correct

[BlockedQuebecois]

3 hours ago, Ben said:

What disadvantages do you have in mind?

They'll vary from firm-to-firm. The biggest one will generally be support. I know a fair number of associates who lateraled from big firms to boutiques after a few years, and the thing they always note as being the big negative change are the resources (secretarial, research, and otherwise) that big firms can throw at issues. But there are also issues around business development that a lot of associates deal with, and some practices are simply more common in big firms than at boutiques. 

Even the big promise of boutiques that everyone talks about—time on your feet—isn't necessarily true. I know associates at big firms who spend more time on their feet than associates at Lenczner. Meaningful time on your feet is more related to the partners you work for and the area of law than the name on the door.

The disadvantages of boutiques wasn't really the point of my post, though. The point was that full service firms can be just as good for litigators as boutiques. Students shouldn't go into the recruit thinking that their career is off to a suboptimal start because they landed at McCarthy's instead of Lenczner. Boutiques and full service firms can both be great. Boutiques and full service firms can also both suck. 

Edited June 10, 2021 by BlockedQuebecois

[DonCorleone]

Whoever told you your grades are not strong enough should be fired. For the record, I know someone who had basically the same grades and they got an OCI at LS. From what I heard, they want to see that you are passionate about advocacy (obviously) and interested in upper year moots. I'd be sure to express the latter in your interview, which I'm sure you have a great chance of getting. 

[Chief Keef]

Jesus Christ this isn’t a troll post?