Jump to content

Burnt Out Articling Student


Ryders123

Recommended Posts

Ryders123
  • Articling Student

We're now almost 3 months into articling.

Does anyone else feel really burnt out? 

How many hours do most students on Bay St docket? I find that every person I talk to has a different amount, from 120 hours a month to over 300 hours a month. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pantalaimon
  • Lawyer
1 minute ago, Ryders123 said:

How many hours do most students on Bay St docket? I find that every person I talk to has a different amount, from 120 hours a month to over 300 hours a month. 

I think you answered your own question there. Maybe there's a bell curve if you get enough data points, but working off anecdotes it's all over the place.

I'm starting to feel it. August & September were fine, but this month has been non-stop. Hang in there! Hope we both get a nice boring 40-hour week soon 😉

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Among my cohort of articling students interested in lit the range was typically 140-215 depending on the month. If you are consistently working north of 200 I would talk to your mentor or student director to see if there is a way to rejig your responsibilities so that you can free up in the coming weeks without letting anyone down. If and when the down time comes, my advice is to really relish it and do not worry - see it as a deserved break after a tough set of weeks. 

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ryders123
  • Articling Student
30 minutes ago, Ghalm said:

Among my cohort of articling students interested in lit the range was typically 140-215 depending on the month. If you are consistently working north of 200 I would talk to your mentor or student director to see if there is a way to rejig your responsibilities so that you can free up in the coming weeks without letting anyone down. If and when the down time comes, my advice is to really relish it and do not worry - see it as a deserved break after a tough set of weeks. 

Thanks that's really helpful advice. I find myself burnt out when busy, and guilty that I'm not working when I have a few down days.

Will definitely shift my mentality away from feeling guilty on slow days.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

OzLaw16
  • Lawyer

Definitely agree that a big part of articling (at least for me) has been learning not to feel guilty about the slower times and enjoying them while I have them. Most law students seem to naturally be the types who are prone to feeling anxious about "not doing enough", and throwing in anxieties about hire back and wondering if you're leaving a good enough impression only amplify that. But every single lawyer I've spoken to about it at my firm has emphasized that it's a natural part of private practice and that it's important to take those rest periods when they pop up so that you'll feel recharged when things get busy again.

As a personal example, last month I docketed close to 250 hours, and this month I'll maybe hit 150. I haven't gotten any indication from anyone at the firm that I'm not working enough, and if anything, I've gotten a lot of active encouragement about it from people who knew about what I was working on last month.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Healthygarden
  • Lawyer

Im at legal aid and while the hours are "set" I've been cramming a shitton of stuff at between these hours and have gone beyond the set hours for the past few weeks. What is going on?!

 

Reeeeally looking forward to a more chill time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

C_Terror
  • Lawyer
On 10/21/2021 at 9:34 PM, OzLaw16 said:

Definitely agree that a big part of articling (at least for me) has been learning not to feel guilty about the slower times and enjoying them while I have them. Most law students seem to naturally be the types who are prone to feeling anxious about "not doing enough", and throwing in anxieties about hire back and wondering if you're leaving a good enough impression only amplify that. But every single lawyer I've spoken to about it at my firm has emphasized that it's a natural part of private practice and that it's important to take those rest periods when they pop up so that you'll feel recharged when things get busy again.

As a personal example, last month I docketed close to 250 hours, and this month I'll maybe hit 150. I haven't gotten any indication from anyone at the firm that I'm not working enough, and if anything, I've gotten a lot of active encouragement about it from people who knew about what I was working on last month.

Unless you're working at an infamous grinding shop, I wouldn't worry about only hitting shy of 150 at all.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

CleanHands
  • Lawyer

I'm in government so I work way less than most articling students and I still feel like a sack of shit. So yeah I don't envy you guys.

I probably should have taken a break between law school and articles rather than working as a legal researcher during that time. But I just couldn't help myself, of course.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

OzLaw16
  • Lawyer
11 hours ago, C_Terror said:

Unless you're working at an infamous grinding shop, I wouldn't worry about only hitting shy of 150 at all.

 

Yeah I wasn’t really stressing over it, but just to clarify, that’s hours docketed, not billed. The firm I’m at has a pretty generous definition of what articling students can/should docket as non-billable time, so a decent chunk of that ~150 is time I wouldn’t really characterize as proper work. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, OzLaw16 said:

Yeah I wasn’t really stressing over it, but just to clarify, that’s hours docketed, not billed. The firm I’m at has a pretty generous definition of what articling students can/should docket as non-billable time, so a decent chunk of that ~150 is time I wouldn’t really characterize as proper work. 

Out of curiosity, what kinds of things would you docket for that you wouldn't bill the client for?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

BlockedQuebecois
  • Lawyer

Most big firms I am familiar with don't really differentiate between billable/non-billable time for articling students (and certainly don't distinguish between billable/billed/collected). Students just don't have sufficient control over the work they're allocated for firms to hold this type of thing against them, unless its indicative of a lack of trust on the part of the assigning lawyers. 

@Ghalm most big firms have tons of side projects articling students will chip in on. You might be helping write blog posts for the firm's website, working with a lawyer to prepare a presentation for an upcoming CPD the lawyer is presenting at, helping out with preparations for internal CPD, etc. Depending on the firm, you also might docket attendance at CPD sessions or business development lunches as non-billable hours. Anything work for a client should generally be billed (and written off by the lawyer, if necessary), but big firms have a lot of initiatives that aren't billable to a client.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

OzLaw16
  • Lawyer
2 minutes ago, Ghalm said:

Out of curiosity, what kinds of things would you docket for that you wouldn't bill the client for?

Not sure how it works at other firms, but at my firm, articling students are told to docket things like meetings with our mentors, general practice group meetings, learning sessions, etc. We’re basically told to docket all the time we spend that’s directly linked to working at the firm. 

As an aside, articling students also do a fair bit of actual work that simply isn’t billable client work. Lawyers are often working on presentations, papers, broader research projects, etc. that they involve students in so that they can spend more time doing billable work, whereas (at least at my firm) articling students don’t have any sort of billable target. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/21/2021 at 4:52 PM, Ryders123 said:

Thanks that's really helpful advice. I find myself burnt out when busy, and guilty that I'm not working when I have a few down days.

Will definitely shift my mentality away from feeling guilty on slow days.

As unhelpful as this is… welcome to Big Law. Lol. This really never goes away even when you’re an associate. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lycidas
  • Law Student

Go to the US. Similar hours at this rate, 2.5x the pay. Absolutely no reason not to do it unless you've cemented your life in Canada. I encourage everyone to go down. The pay in Canada is literally not worth the stress and hours. 

  • Nom! 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

BlockedQuebecois
  • Lawyer
21 minutes ago, tails said:

As unhelpful as this is… welcome to Big Law. Lol. This really never goes away even when you’re an associate. 

This is definitely true for a lot of people, but I also think it's worth noting not everyone feels that way. I have never felt guilty or stressed about a lack of work—in this profession, the next busy period is always right around the corner. I also know a lot of more senior people who similarly are more than happy to enjoy the quiet periods without worrying.

I only mention this because it's important to normalize having a healthy relationship (and boundaries) with work, even if that's the minority of people in this profession. 

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

This is definitely true for a lot of people, but I also think it's worth noting not everyone feels that way. I have never felt guilty or stressed about a lack of work—in this profession, the next busy period is always right around the corner. I also know a lot of more senior people who similarly are more than happy to enjoy the quiet periods without worrying.

I only mention this because it's important to normalize having a healthy relationship (and boundaries) with work, even if that's the minority of people in this profession. 

I definitely agree with you, and commend you on your ability to create those boundaries. That’s something I’ve been trash at and work through with a professional. There truly is no better time than the present to work on those boundaries, especially for those more junior. Set them early and set them often. 
 

That said, the pressures of the job really do trigger this kind of reaction for those of us who aren’t so great at boundary setting/already have rocky mental health. I hope OP knows there is a lot of people who struggle with the same thing, and also are trying to work through that rather than having never felt that way, and therefore never struggle with the same issue. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

pepesilvia
  • Articling Student

Is 200-250 hr/month normal for an articling student? I don't feel burnt out but some people have expressed to me that this is a lot. I'm getting a full night of sleep every night, taking care of myself, happy and healthy, and I have a little bit of downtime too... so personally I feel like it is sustainable but I am not sure if it actually is. But it has been 3 months so far and I feel fine.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

BlockedQuebecois
  • Lawyer

Your question is answered by just reading the thread, particularly @Ghalm’s answer above. If you’re consistently over 200 hours a month, you’re probably working too much. 

I think you should know by now that billing 2400-3000 hours a year is excessive, but if you don’t here’s your notice. 

Edited by BlockedQuebecois
I’ll be nicer, articling is stressful, I know.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

pepesilvia
  • Articling Student
1 hour ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

Your question is answered by just reading the thread, particularly @Ghalm’s answer above. If you’re consistently over 200 hours a month, you’re probably working too much. 

I think you should know by now that billing 2400-3000 hours a year is excessive, but if you don’t here’s your notice. 

Well it isn't billing, since as you mentioned there isn't really a differentiation between billables/non-billables for articling students at most firms. It equals to working roughly 50 hrs/week which I never assumed going into this was on the "higher end" of hours worked, considering I've met a lot of articling students and associates who talk about working 70 hour weeks and 300 months etc - I always thought that was the extreme... But reading this thread made me confused because it seems like what I'm doing may also be excessive, which is why I asked.

Edited by pepesilvia
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Psychometronic
  • Lawyer
On 10/21/2021 at 3:06 PM, Ryders123 said:

We're now almost 3 months into articling.

Does anyone else feel really burnt out? 

I started to feel burnt out at the 3-month mark too (not including PLTC). I thought it was weird since 3 months wasn't very long but then things slowed down and I could take weekends and evenings off while still meeting deadlines. The dip helped me recharge and now I feel better about the workload. 

I think part of it is building up the stamina to deal with the nature of the work. After that, it seems to get better.

Edited by Psychometronic
Link to comment
Share on other sites

HammurabiTime
  • Lawyer
31 minutes ago, pepesilvia said:

Well it isn't billing, since as you mentioned there isn't really a differentiation between billables/non-billables for articling students at most firms. It equals to working roughly 50 hrs/week which I never assumed going into this was on the "higher end" of hours worked, considering I've met a lot of articling students and associates who talk about working 70 hour weeks and 300 months etc - I always thought that was the extreme... But reading this thread made me confused because it seems like what I'm doing may also be excessive, which is why I asked.

Are you docketing literally every minute you're in the office? If you are in the office 50 hours a week (or logged on for that amount of time or however we talk about work time in the pandemic) I would think you'd be docketing noticeably less than 50 hours. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

pepesilvia
  • Articling Student
29 minutes ago, HammurabiTime said:

Are you docketing literally every minute you're in the office? If you are in the office 50 hours a week (or logged on for that amount of time or however we talk about work time in the pandemic) I would think you'd be docketing noticeably less than 50 hours. 

No, I'm usually at my desk from around 8 AM to 7 PM every day except Saturdays, though sometimes earlier/sometimes later. So technically I am putting in more "time" than 50 hours, but I thought that was assumed. But I don't really see the spare time as "work". Maybe part of the reason is that I am mostly remote. 

However, like I said, I have the evenings to myself, I have a day off, I get a full night of sleep. So I really don't see what more I could want. I always imagined "long hours" to mean like, not being able to sleep 8 hours a night or take care of basic needs. Maybe I am stubborn but I don't see how working 2 hours less a day and 1 less day a week would really change anything for me in terms of how I feel, but maybe I will be singing a different tune in a couple months.

Edited by pepesilvia
Link to comment
Share on other sites

BlockedQuebecois
  • Lawyer

If you feel fine, I’m not sure why you’re seeking advice/validation on the internet, to be honest. 

People have told you it’s foolish to docket 200-250 hours per month and you should try to avoid it if possible. If you’re going to disregard that, fine, but what are you looking to get out of this thread? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

pepesilvia
  • Articling Student
24 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

If you feel fine, I’m not sure why you’re seeking advice/validation on the internet, to be honest. 

People have told you it’s foolish to docket 200-250 hours per month and you should try to avoid it if possible. If you’re going to disregard that, fine, but what are you looking to get out of this thread? 

Partially just trying to understand why it feels like the norm when you talk to other articling students. Like are all these articling students just doing stuff that is unsustainable? But also kind of need a reality check I think because there must be something realistic in what more seasoned lawyers are saying that I'm overlooking. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

BCLaw2021
  • Lawyer

it is possible that OP doesn't have the luxury to "decide" or adjuster a value that turns down the amount of hours worked - if that possibility is a fact, then your response is someone insensitive. It is possible that OP is being given certain assignments with certain deadlines, which need to be completed that results in those hours worked as a consequence. 

OP, I would speak to your articling principal and perhaps a junior at the firm that you're comfortable having conversations in confidence. Perhaps it is possible that you can speak to the lawyers who are assigning "new work" that you are at capacity this week to "clear up" some of your backlog. If it's the same lawyers giving you work, you may wish to consider pre-emptively initiating this conversation. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.


×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By accessing this website, you agree to abide by our Terms of Use. YOU EXPRESSLY ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT YOU WILL NOT CONSTRUE ANY POST ON THIS WEBSITE AS PROVIDING LEGAL ADVICE EVEN IF SUCH POST IS MADE BY A PERSON CLAIMING TO BE A LAWYER. We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.