BA, MA, LSAT combined

[oliviaspencer80]

Hello everyone 

My undergraduate GPA from U of T is a 2.9 (I did not do very well clearly). I did have some family and mental health issues in between that I discuss in my personal statements. My masters GPA is 3.8/4.0. I have not done the lsat yet but if I aim for 165, could I get into a top school? 

[CleanHands]

165 certainly isn't going to cut it for a "top school" with that cGPA and no upward trend (from the standpoint of admissions at nearly every Canadian law school, master's grades aren't considered and the degrees themselves are considered softs--IIRC UofA is the sole exception to this). That's actually slightly less than a median LSAT score for admits to the most competitive Canadian schools.

An anecdote that may give you some context and understanding for how these things work: my undergrad cGPA was around the same as yours but I had around a 3.7 B3/B2/L2, a 173 LSAT and an access claim and medical documentation explaining my initial poor grades and I was rejected from UofT. In general admission stats for access/discretionary categories are only slightly lower than for general admissions categories.

You need to reevaluate your goals because your realistic challenge at this point is securing admittance to literally any Canadian JD program. "Top schools" are out of the question for you at this point.

Edited October 22, 2021 by CleanHands

[oliviaspencer80]

Thank you so much for your quick reply! 
my last 2 years of my undergrad were a lot better than my first two years. My gpa for L2 was around 3.3– do you think I have a chance at Ryerson? I’m ruling queens, western, osgoode out and definitely U of T. 

[Darth Vader]

11 minutes ago, oliviaspencer80 said:

Thank you so much for your quick reply! 
my last 2 years of my undergrad were a lot better than my first two years. My gpa for L2 was around 3.3– do you think I have a chance at Ryerson? I’m ruling queens, western, osgoode out and definitely U of T. 

What is your work experience and extracurriculars like? Are you a mature student or indigenous?

3.3 in your last 2 years is quite low for law school admissions which sees 3.6+ GPA as being in the competitive range. Also, grades are easier to get in the upper years where many people have 3.7+ GPAs. Your stats alone are too low for most law schools in Canada barring exceptional circumstances. I think you need to go on the law school websites first and research the admissions requirements. 

https://www.oxfordseminars.ca/LSAT/lsat_profiles.php - this is a little outdated but should give you some idea of the stats you need.

You can try for the newer/lower ranked schools like Windsor, TRU, Ryerson, and Lakehead, but I would have good backup options available.

Edited October 22, 2021 by Darth Vader

[CleanHands]

I'm far from an expert about Ryerson's admissions specifically, as they are a new school with holistic admissions policies and they have kept their admission stats under wraps (plus it wasn't even a thing when I was applying). But I do think you at least have a shot at schools like that, Windsor, Lakehead, etc, if you are able to score very highly on the LSAT. Of course, nobody can say much until you actually write the LSAT. I do encourage you to apply access/discretionary based on what you've written, just know that doesn't render stats irrelevant but rather helps provide some context as part of a narrative about what kind of candidate you are and why you could succeed in law school. Although your master's grades wouldn't be considered in assessing your GPA you can point to them as part of an access claim to demonstrate that they are more reflective of your academic capabilities, if your family and health situation were better at that time of your life.

Good luck!

Edited October 22, 2021 by CleanHands

[oliviaspencer80]

Thanks CleanHands, my personal statements are framed in a way that showcases my masters degree as something that is reflective of my academic capabilities. 

would the alternative be to boost my gpa through another undergraduate program for a couple more years? 

I don’t have much relevant work experience. I was a part of one student committee during my graduate studies but that’s it. I guess I’ll try my best for the January LSATs and see what happens. 
 

anyone’s feedback is highly appreciated! 

[CleanHands]

1 minute ago, oliviaspencer80 said:

would the alternative be to boost my gpa through another undergraduate program for a couple more years?

This is viable, particularly for L2 or B2 schools (schools that place emphasis on your best two or last two years of undergrad) if you take an additional two years. However different schools have different rules around how they consider grades from a second degree or open studies, so be sure to inquire with your target schools directly before embarking on something so time-consuming and costly.

Before you do that you should also at least write a practice (if not official--they are good for 5 years) LSAT to see where you land there. You mentioned writing in Jan and I think that's a great idea. If you haven't done any practice tests yet, the June 2007 is available for free here: https://uploads-ssl.webflow.com/5ef204b88664bdb6230a8cdf/5f2f7cfc3b89f93b933577e9_SamplePTJune.pdf. Write it under timed conditions.

If you struggle to get a competitive LSAT score, I would not recommend the effort of additional undergrad studies just for law school admissions purposes. If you intuitively and effortlessly knock it out of the park, you may not need additional undergrad studies. If you're somewhere in between, it may make the difference between being admitted to a JD program or not. So this is must-have info for you to formulate a plan for the best course of action for your situation.

[oliviaspencer80]

I started studying for the LSATs a little more than a week ago. I’m using the khan academy LSAT prep, it seems like it’s a pretty thorough LSAT guide. I did the diagnostic test and got a 147. I’ve been studying everyday since for 5-6 hours and I’m slowly becoming comfortable with LR but I need a ton of practice in all 3 sections if I want to score high in the January LSAT. The more practice I do, the more confident I’ll become so I don’t want to be too discouraging with myself. If I don’t do well on this one then I may have to reconsider my options and possibly go into government. 

[Darth Vader]

If you can go into government, I would strongly consider this option as many lawyers want to work for the government and can't get in. Many lawyers take non-lawyer positions with the government as well. 

If you do more research on the career path of a lawyer, you will see that a significant number of lawyers regret going to law school. The grass is not greener on the other side.

[oliviaspencer80]

Is this also true for Bay Street lawyers? I know it’s a lot of work for them and the work culture can be toxic in terms of work life balance, but I thought the pay makes it worth it lol. Regardless, my main concern now is getting into a JD program and if not then government is my back up! 

[Darth Vader]

2 hours ago, oliviaspencer80 said:

Is this also true for Bay Street lawyers? I know it’s a lot of work for them and the work culture can be toxic in terms of work life balance, but I thought the pay makes it worth it lol. Regardless, my main concern now is getting into a JD program and if not then government is my back up! 

If the only meaning you derive from life is making money, then it may be worth it. Substance abuse, mental health issues, high divorce rates, and little time for family and friends are common issues among lawyers, especially Big law lawyers. Attrition rates are high in Big law because of the burnout and demanding lifestyle. If you're only in this for the money, then you should do some introspection on your long-term goals. if you're willing to sacrifice time and relationships in the quest to make a shitload of money, then this path may be worth it. From a societal perspective, there isn't a lot of intrinsic meaning to be derived from the work either.

This isn't to turn you away from this path, but to get you to think about this rationally. If you are in your 20s and single, then committing your life to a firm for a shit ton of money seems like a no-brainer. But start asking yourself if that will still be the case when you start having more responsibilities in life. If you are a woman, Big law is not kind to people that want to go on maternity leave. Statistics show that many female lawyers are leaving the practice of law. if you have mental health issues, then Big law is also not kind to accommodating that and the Big law lifestyle can also exacerbate existing mental health issues.

Big law for most lawyers is a starting point in their career for desirable exit options. One of these options is a government job. Other exit options include boutiques and mid-sized firms and in-house positions. If you want to work in the corporate field, you could just do an MBA and find a corporate job that suits your interests and lifestyle. I'd rather do this than pursue another undergraduate degree and go to law school just so you can get into Big law. 

[NowOrNever]

4 hours ago, oliviaspencer80 said:

Hello everyone 

My undergraduate GPA from U of T is a 2.9 (I did not do very well clearly). I did have some family and mental health issues in between that I discuss in my personal statements. My masters GPA is 3.8/4.0. I have not done the lsat yet but if I aim for 165, could I get into a top school? 

Concentrate on your LSAT studies at this point.

You will be good for the following law schools with a good LSAT score.

Alberta:

https://www.ualberta.ca/law/programs/jd/admissions/index.html

The Admission GPA is calculated using the applicant's most recent 60 units/credits (equivalent to 2 years of full time study) in a recognized university degree (undergraduate or graduate), provided those units of course weight are completed by February 1st in the year in which admission is sought. This is the minimum number of units/credits or courses that will be used in the assessment of an applicant's GPA.

Manitoba:

https://umanitoba.ca/student/admissions/media/law_bulletin.pdf

[oliviaspencer80]

If I apply to schools out of province and get in, will that affect my likelihood of finding a job in Ontario? Because ideally I’d like to come back to Ontario and practice here. And if I do well in law school and participate in formal recruit processes like OCIs, then will I have just as much of a chance finding a job here than someone who is already studying in Ontario? Will it be more difficult? Do firms look at that kind of stuff? Just trying to weigh out my prospects here. 

Edited October 23, 2021 by oliviaspencer80

[LMP]

2 hours ago, oliviaspencer80 said:

If I apply to schools out of province and get in, will that affect my likelihood of finding a job in Ontario? Because ideally I’d like to come back to Ontario and practice here. And if I do well in law school and participate in formal recruit processes like OCIs, then will I have just as much of a chance finding a job here than someone who is already studying in Ontario? Will it be more difficult? Do firms look at that kind of stuff? Just trying to weigh out my prospects here. 

You'd be better served in your goals by attending an Ontario school but it's entirely possible to go out of province and come back. It isn't even particularly rare or uncommon. 

As for OCIs, if the intent is to get OCIs with Toronto firms your best bet would be to stay in Ontario for school. Especially when you consider that even certian Ontario schools get almost overlooked during the OCI procees. 

[oliviaspencer80]

Hmm okay thanks for this. What I’m gathering is that if I go to school out of province I have a better chance of getting a government position in Ontario and if the only school I get into in Ontario is Ryerson, Windsor, or Lakehead, then I still may not have a good shot at getting OCIs with Toronto firms. 

[Pendragon]

25 minutes ago, oliviaspencer80 said:

Hmm okay thanks for this. What I’m gathering is that if I go to school out of province I have a better chance of getting a government position in Ontario and if the only school I get into in Ontario is Ryerson, Windsor, or Lakehead, then I still may not have a good shot at getting OCIs with Toronto firms. 

The OCI and articling recruit includes government employers and not just include Big law firms. There are fewer government employers and the interviews are substantive, so these positions tend to be more difficult to get.

Ryerson has done pretty well in the 1L Bay Street recruit so far. We have to see what the 2L hiring numbers are this year to make any conclusions on it. 

Your chances of landing an OCI or articling job in Toronto through the formal recruits by attending a lower-tier out of province school is slim. 

[oliviaspencer80]

Ah okay gotcha. Here’s to hoping I get into Ryerson at least! 🤞🏽 

[AllanC]

On 10/22/2021 at 6:53 PM, CleanHands said:

165 certainly isn't going to cut it for a "top school" with that cGPA and no upward trend (from the standpoint of admissions at nearly every Canadian law school, master's grades aren't considered and the degrees themselves are considered softs--IIRC UofA is the sole exception to this). That's actually slightly less than a median LSAT score for admits to the most competitive Canadian schools.

FYI it used to be that Dalhousie also took graduate courses into account. From this recent thread it appears that is still the case but for obvious reasons I am out of touch with applications so it may no longer be so. 

On 10/22/2021 at 7:57 PM, oliviaspencer80 said:

I started studying for the LSATs a little more than a week ago. I’m using the khan academy LSAT prep, it seems like it’s a pretty thorough LSAT guide. I did the diagnostic test and got a 147. I’ve been studying everyday since for 5-6 hours and I’m slowly becoming comfortable with LR but I need a ton of practice in all 3 sections if I want to score high in the January LSAT. The more practice I do, the more confident I’ll become so I don’t want to be too discouraging with myself. If I don’t do well on this one then I may have to reconsider my options and possibly go into government. 

The LSAT can be quite unlike anything you've ever done so while your diagnostic is important in terms of letting you know how much work you have to do, it's not always fully representative of your potential; so you are absolutely right not to be discouraged! If you need help with individual questions or overall strategies make sure you post another thread on the forum and we will do our best to help out. 

Also, while thinking about job prospects is certainly an intelligent thing to do before you embark on a legal career just make sure you don't get too wrapped up in it before you even have an LSAT score. For one, those prospects are rather dependent on your score and two, you don't want to mentally pigeonhole yourself into a particular route before you even have the opportunity to explore other avenues. You might find that less formalized (e.g. non-government, non-OCI jobs) are a better fit but that can only happen if you are open to it (and anchoring bias is a real bitch!).