Thoughts On Dual JD?

[BlockedQuebecois]

6 minutes ago, kilgoretrout said:

Osgoode and U of T are of course better schools, but that doesn't make Windsor "bad." It was my understanding that proximity to Bay Street plays the largest factor in which schools see their students get hired the most. There are some really good law schools across Canada that don't place a lot of students on Bay Street.

UBC doesn't place a lot of students on Bay Street because UBC students generally want to stay in BC. Windsor isn't UBC. Windsor doesn't place students on Bay Street because their student class is significantly less competitive than the student class at Osgoode or U of T. 

Something like 80% of Windsor's class is from the GTA, and most of those folks want to go back to the GTA. 

The idea that if Windsor's campus was magically moved to 1 Bay Street and its class stayed the exact same it would start killing it at OCIs is clearly wrong. 

[lawess]

7 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

UBC doesn't place a lot of students on Bay Street because UBC students generally want to stay in BC. Windsor isn't UBC. Windsor doesn't place students on Bay Street because their student class is significantly less competitive than the student class at Osgoode or U of T. 

Something like 80% of Windsor's class is from the GTA, and most of those folks want to go back to the GTA. 

The idea that if Windsor's campus was magically moved to 1 Bay Street and its class stayed the exact same it would start killing it at OCIs is clearly wrong. 

I'm not sure I agree with you. I've spent a lot of time browsing the student hires of different Bay Street firms and it looks like a healthy mix of all GTA schools, plus some Windsor students. Again, not denying there are more U of T or Osgoode students. But from what I've seen, Windsor students are doing better than I personally expected to see. 

[devgru]

20 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

UBC doesn't place a lot of students on Bay Street because UBC students generally want to stay in BC. Windsor isn't UBC. Windsor doesn't place students on Bay Street because their student class is significantly less competitive than the student class at Osgoode or U of T. 

Something like 80% of Windsor's class is from the GTA, and most of those folks want to go back to the GTA. 

The idea that if Windsor's campus was magically moved to 1 Bay Street and its class stayed the exact same it would start killing it at OCIs is clearly wrong. 

One of my law profs went to Windsor for her law degree, she articled on Bay street and did her LLM at Cambridge. 

I agree with kilgoretroutt that you shouldn't be speaking in absolutes and saying none of Windsor's students can make it to Bay Street (as a disclaimer, I didn't go to Windsor).  

[BlockedQuebecois]

4 minutes ago, devgru said:

One of my law profs went to Windsor for her law degree, she articled on Bay street and did her LLM at Cambridge. 

I agree with kilgoretroutt that you shouldn't be speaking in absolutes and saying none of Windsor's students can make it to Bay Street (as a disclaimer, I didn't go to Windsor).  

I think it's clear from the context of my posts that I wasn't saying "none of Windsor's students can make it to Bay Street". 

My posts are saying that Windsor does much worse with regards to Bay Street hiring than U of T and Osgoode, and thus the suggestion that there are "probably" more U of T and Oz students on Bay than Windsor students is laughable, as is the idea that Windsor's failure to place 35%+ of its students on Bay is due principally to its campus being geographically far away from Bay Street. 

[devgru]

Just now, BlockedQuebecois said:

I think it's clear from the context of my posts that I wasn't saying "none of Windsor's students can make it to Bay Street". 

My posts are saying that Windsor does much worse with regards to Bay Street hiring than U of T and Osgoode, and thus the suggestion that there are "probably" more U of T and Oz students on Bay than Windsor students is laughable, as is the idea that Windsor's failure to place 35%+ of its students on Bay is due principally to its campus being geographically far away from Bay Street. 

Then you should change your wording from "Windsor doesn't place its student on Bay Street" to "Windsor doesn't place most of its students on Bay Street", for the sake of clarity. 

[lawess]

11 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

I think it's clear from the context of my posts that I wasn't saying "none of Windsor's students can make it to Bay Street". 

My posts are saying that Windsor does much worse with regards to Bay Street hiring than U of T and Osgoode, and thus the suggestion that there are "probably" more U of T and Oz students on Bay than Windsor students is laughable, as is the idea that Windsor's failure to place 35%+ of its students on Bay is due principally to its campus being geographically far away from Bay Street. 

Bob Jones and I have consistently agreed and said that there are more U of T and Osgoode students on Bay Street than Windsor students. No one has really said anything to the contrary.. I'm not sure what your issue was. Was it really because the word "probably" was used? 

[123]

1 hour ago, Hegdis said:

A number of years out no one will care and your work will speak for you. If the dual program gets you a degree, go for it.

When I was interviewing potential articled students the only thing that stood out to me about the Dual program was the transcripts were really hard to decipher. The Canadian/American divide wasn't really described in any way so I had no idea how much time the student had spent on the topics I was actually interested in (these were not the American courses).

Some excellent defence lawyers went to Windsor. I can't speak to the OCI / corporate side. But I'm assuming that Windsor grads, dual or single, are hireable and skilled enough to become competent counsel. Otherwise, I don't know how to account for the capable Windsor grads I know. 

But I don't understand how dual JDs survive financially, as junior defence counsel. Repaying that $42,000.00 per year (or whatever it is) in fees on a new defence lawyer's earnings seems borderline impossible. I had substantially less debt than that, and I still struggled. I assume they must have had help. Either that, or they would have had some really nightmarish years. 

Given that Windsor grads sometimes initially land in retail law, where the pay isn't great, I would really think carefully about taking on this level of debt. It might pay off, especially long-term. But I would urge anyone who is debt-financing the degree to honestly weigh the risks that arise in the first few years. You're paying more than U of T students for a much less marketable degree. It's entirely foreseeable that you'll struggle to make payments. And speaking from experience, being hounded by creditors can take you to a dark place, financially and psychologically.

I know people want to be lawyers, and this is the only option for some. But genuinely consider whether the cost and associated risk is worthwhile. Because I suspect for some, it isn't. 

[LMP]

18 minutes ago, realpseudonym said:

Some excellent defence lawyers went to Windsor. I can't speak to the OCI / corporate side. But I'm assuming that Windsor grads, dual or single, are hireable and skilled enough to become competent counsel. Otherwise, I don't know how to account for the capable Windsor grads I know. 

But I don't understand how dual JDs survive financially, as junior defence counsel. Repaying that $42,000.00 per year (or whatever it is) in fees on a new defence lawyer's earnings seems borderline impossible. I had substantially less debt than that, and I still struggled. I assume they must have had help. Either that, or they would have had some really nightmarish years. 

Given that Windsor grads sometimes initially land in retail law, where the pay isn't great, I would really think carefully about taking on this level of debt. It might pay off, especially long-term. But I would urge anyone who is debt-financing the degree to honestly weigh the risks that arise in the first few years. You're paying more than U of T students for a much less marketable degree. It's entirely foreseeable that you'll struggle to make payments. And speaking from experience, being hounded by creditors can take you to a dark place, financially and psychologically.

I know people want to be lawyers, and this is the only option for some. But genuinely consider whether the cost and associated risk is worthwhile. Because I suspect for some, it isn't. 

People tend to think defense attorneys make huge salaries. They refuse to hear arguments to the contrary. I've had this discussion with my peers at Osgoode and have been told in no uncertain terms that they expect to make around 150k as a defense lawyer. 

So I believe that people take on the debt they do, while maintaining their career goals, because they believe paying them off will be a simple feat.

[BlockedQuebecois]

35 minutes ago, devgru said:

Then you should change your wording from "Windsor doesn't place its student on Bay Street" to "Windsor doesn't place most of its students on Bay Street", for the sake of clarity. 

I prefer to live dangerously and assume my readers have the barest of critical thinking and reading comprehension skills. 

Anyways, here is the point: Windsor produces plenty of fine lawyers, but it doesn't do anybody any favours to pretend a school offers better opportunities than it actually does.

Windsor places less than a fifth of its class through the Toronto 2L recruit every year. There is absolutely no question that Osgoode and U of T do better in that respect, and needlessly saying there are "probably" more Osgoode and U of T grads in those roles than Windsor grads suggests a level of uncertainty that is entirely unwarranted and serves only to protect the egos of students at Windsor at the expense of misleading folks seeking genuine advice on this topic. 

Similarly, the reason Windsor places less than a fifth of its class through the Toronto 2L recruit, compared to >35% and ~50% for Osgoode and U of T, respectively, is not that Windsor is far away from Bay Street. That again does nothing but protect the egos of students at Windsor at the expense of misleading folks seeing genuine advice on the topic. It places such a low number on Bay Street because firms on Bay Street think, rightly or wrongly, that the schools with higher admissions stats have stronger students, and thus they are willing to go deeper into the class at U of T than Windsor.

I will never understand why this is such a frequent topic of debate on this forum. It is obvious to everyone that does not have a vested interest in the reputation of their school that big law firms and plenty of other employers think the students at some schools are, on average, better than the students at other schools. And the fact that some schools are viewed that way is not a personal attack or indictment of the students at the lower ranked schools. 

But frankly, I think it is irresponsible for individuals who should know better to respond to an applicant in a manner that misleads them about the objective reality of the legal market.

Edited January 18, 2022 by BlockedQuebecois

[CleanHands]

3 minutes ago, LMP said:

People tend to think defense attorneys make huge salaries. They refuse to hear arguments to the contrary. I've had this discussion with my peers at Osgoode and have been told in no uncertain terms that they expect to make around 150k as a defense lawyer. 

So I believe that people take on the debt they do, while maintaining their career goals, because they believe paying them off will be a simple feat.

When I've talked about my career path with people outside the field, they seem to think defence is where the money is at and that Crowns are underpaid civil servants as a contrast to that.

I get the impression that it's a combination of them thinking most defence lawyers are like Johnnie Cochran due to the sort of cases that get media exposure (and not realizing or thinking through the fact that most criminally accused people are flat broke), and also not comprehending why people want to be criminal defence lawyers if not for money.

[Bob Jones]

5 hours ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

Cross-border transactional or other solicitor work isn't super niche; it's just super niche for Windsor dual grads because they aren't able to get jobs at the shops that advise on cross-border transactions. All of the major Bay Street firms will be involved in cross-border work. 

Also, there are "probably" more Osgoode and U of T grads on Bay than Dual? Really? 🙄 

“…And others” if you read my full sentence. It’s no secret U of T and Osgoode dominates Bay St and the national firms, but there are Windsor and duals there as well was my point. 
 

I’m in litigation so solicitor work is very foreign to me but it’s my understanding that of all the practices and specialties on Bay, US-Cnd transactions which specifically calls for Ont lawyers to be licensed in both jurisdictions is very rare and therefore, the Dual program isn’t all that useful. 

4 hours ago, kilgoretrout said:

 

Yeah, we literally had one UDM class and it cost us over $16K. And yeah, even with COVID, you still have to be physically present at UDM to be eligible for in person externships. It's been a nightmare with the testing and changing regulations. Just goes to show again how inconvenient and disorganized parts of the program are, but like you said, I don't really feel like I'm missing out on a lot of opportunities by being here and I do see our grads in interesting positions. I think it really just depends on the person, like with anything. 

OP, I urge you to really pay attention to what the people who have actually been in the program say (the good and the bad), and take the others with a grain of salt. A lot of people on here tend to make these sweeping, dramatic statements about things that just tend to not be accurate. I remember asking a question about the program on here before I started and just being told things that were flat out untrue, which freaked me out. If your endgame is corporate law, Windsor probably isn't the best school for that anyways, but I do see our grads in top positions on Bay Street. It really is just another Ontario JD -- if you do come here, just take advantage of the resources and study hard (like students at any other school should do) and you'll be fine.

 

Osgoode and U of T are of course better schools, but that doesn't make Windsor "bad." It was my understanding that proximity to Bay Street plays the largest factor in which schools see their students get hired the most. There are some really good law schools across Canada that don't place a lot of students on Bay Street.

Well said 

3 hours ago, kilgoretrout said:

Bob Jones and I have consistently agreed and said that there are more U of T and Osgoode students on Bay Street than Windsor students. No one has really said anything to the contrary.. I'm not sure what your issue was. Was it really because the word "probably" was used? 

I’m not sure whats laughable or unclear.I made it clear U of T and Osgoode places better on Bay Street than Duals and other grads. However, many duals go on to do well and many end up in Bay positions and other large and medium sized firms. 

[lawess]

3 hours ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

I prefer to live dangerously and assume my readers have the barest of critical thinking and reading comprehension skills. 

Anyways, here is the point: Windsor produces plenty of fine lawyers, but it doesn't do anybody any favours to pretend a school offers better opportunities than it actually does.

Windsor places less than a fifth of its class through the Toronto 2L recruit every year. There is absolutely no question that Osgoode and U of T do better in that respect, and needlessly saying there are "probably" more Osgoode and U of T grads in those roles than Windsor grads suggests a level of uncertainty that is entirely unwarranted and serves only to protect the egos of students at Windsor at the expense of misleading folks seeking genuine advice on this topic. 

Similarly, the reason Windsor places less than a fifth of its class through the Toronto 2L recruit, compared to >35% and ~50% for Osgoode and U of T, respectively, is not that Windsor is far away from Bay Street. That again does nothing but protect the egos of students at Windsor at the expense of misleading folks seeing genuine advice on the topic. It places such a low number on Bay Street because firms on Bay Street think, rightly or wrongly, that the schools with higher admissions stats have stronger students, and thus they are willing to go deeper into the class at U of T than Windsor.

I will never understand why this is such a frequent topic of debate on this forum. It is obvious to everyone that does not have a vested interest in the reputation of their school that big law firms and plenty of other employers think the students at some schools are, on average, better than the students at other schools. And the fact that some schools are viewed that way is not a personal attack or indictment of the students at the lower ranked schools. 

But frankly, I think it is irresponsible for individuals who should know better to respond to an applicant in a manner that misleads them about the objective reality of the legal market.

Your responses to a handful of Dual JD students who are just sharing their honest experiences of being in the program are... interesting. OP is a potential applicant and is asking about a law program on a law student forum - how is this conversation difficult to understand?

The few Dual JD students who did comment didn't even say they were happy with the program -- some of us literally just said we were pleasantly surprised, while most advised to only come if it's your only choice. I mean, come on... the words "not that bad" and "it's not a death sentence" were used. My apologies if this came across to you as ego-driven. It sounds like what you're looking for is a definite declaration that this program made us absolutely miserable and completely unemployable. Sorry, I can't make that happen for you. 

It's pretty obvious that no one is saying Windsor grads have a leg up on Bay Street, not even close. But I think you just really wanted to say what you had to say, regardless of what the other comments were. 😆

[Hegdis]

This thread is flirting with a lock. We have removed some posts. I think everyone has had their say, so let’s move on. 

[erin otoole]

  

9 hours ago, kilgoretrout said:

Yeah, we literally had one UDM class and it cost us over $16K.

Don't be short you had one full class (legal writing) at UDM. You have the US property module, US/CAN contacts is a UDM course and you are paying for the summer classes, US Constitution, Civ Pro and an elective. You have full access to the UDM resources, a private American university, you just chose not to take advantage of them.  

9 hours ago, kilgoretrout said:

even with COVID, you still have to be physically present at UDM to be eligible for in person externships. It's been a nightmare with the testing and changing regulations. Just goes to show again how inconvenient and disorganized parts of the program are

The program isn't disorganized because you're too stupid to figure out a student Visa and the ArriveCan app. You're a big boy/girl its not the schools responsibility to hand you everything on a silver plater. If you ask the Director she will help you with the visa, something that you have evidently not been able to figure out. I looked in my outlook and we received an email a couple weeks ago with step by step instructions of what to do and how to cross. Get a grip Jesus. 

4 hours ago, kilgoretrout said:

The few Dual JD students who did comment didn't even say they were happy with the program

I commented that I enjoy the program very much. There are many 1L and 2L duals that are very vocal about not liking the program, but these students are often those that have refused to move to Windsor or take any in person class in Detroit. Law school will suck regardless if you are choosing to do it in your parents Markham basement. If anyone has cold feet about the program DM me. I am a 3L that is very poor, but very happy with my Dual JD experience. 

[Bob Jones]

8 minutes ago, erin otoole said:

  

Don't be short you had one full class (legal writing) at UDM. You have the US property module, US/CAN contacts is a UDM course and you are paying for the summer classes, US Constitution, Civ Pro and an elective. You have full access to the UDM resources, a private American university, you just chose not to take advantage of them.  

The program isn't disorganized because you're too stupid to figure out a student Visa and the ArriveCan app. You're a big boy/girl its not the schools responsibility to hand you everything on a silver plater. If you ask the Director she will help you with the visa, something that you have evidently not been able to figure out. I looked in my outlook and we received an email a couple weeks ago with step by step instructions of what to do and how to cross. Get a grip Jesus. 

I commented that I enjoy the program very much. There are many 1L and 2L duals that are very vocal about not liking the program, but these students are often those that have refused to move to Windsor or take any in person class in Detroit. Law school will suck regardless if you are choosing to do it in your parents Markham basement. If anyone has cold feet about the program DM me. I am a 3L that is very poor, but very happy with my Dual JD experience. 

What's the procedure been like with crossing the border and COVID? Do you have to go for regular COVID testing? I wonder if someone refusing to get vaccinated/tested may be grounds for transferring out after 1L. You're comments above are correct it's not just 1 class you have a multitude of them (basically double the course load in 1L). Although are the very few modules you have on US contracts as an example helpful if you want to practise in Ontario? How about the US property modules? There's pros and cons to any program. Ultimately, my complaint about it (again, as a grad of the program) is that it was over priced, and you get virtually nothing for having UDM on your resume, or having two JDs. Contrary to popular belief, if a Canadian is interested in moving to the US, a number of states (NY, California, and FL for starters) will allow you to write their state bar exams (mind you after an extensive application process, but they do recognize our JDs). 

Perhaps if this was a Windsor JD/MBA UMich program, where over 4 years you get your JD and MBA and it's at a reputable school in the US that would be interesting. It seems to be the only reason why they teamed up with UDM is because geographically they're close, but it's a very poorly ranked school that doesn't do much except justify an exorbitant tuition price. I do miss the restaurants thought in Detroit. 

[BlockedQuebecois]

5 hours ago, erin otoole said:

The program isn't disorganized because you're too stupid to figure out a student Visa and the ArriveCan app. You're a big boy/girl its not the schools responsibility to hand you everything on a silver plater.

I had to check this wasn’t a new BQ satire account when I read this. 

[erin otoole]

14 hours ago, Bob Jones said:

What's the procedure been like with crossing the border and COVID? Do you have to go for regular COVID testing? I wonder if someone refusing to get vaccinated/tested may be grounds for transferring out after 1L.

F1 visa gets you into the US no problem. Both the bridge and the tunnel the border guards are pretty chill with the Duals driving across. On the Can side its a hassle, even more than before covid. They will frequently tell you the ArriveCan App was filled out wrong, you are not "essential travel" or if you stayed at school for too long after the end of class. Just nod, and say "yes sir" "no sir" to their stupid questions and you will avoid being told to quarantine. No need to test if you are "essential", but if you stay late to study or pick up a library book the Canadian boarder idiots will often threaten you with the fine for not having a test. No dual has actually gotten that fine to my knowledge.

No idea on the transfers, but as you are aware the 1L transfer out is a foolish proposition, few get to leave. 

9 hours ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

I had to check this wasn’t a new BQ satire account when I read this. 

No just salty that there is someone that allegedly will become a lawyer one day can't be bothered to even read regulations. This idiot just put his head in the sand and blamed the school, even after they sent us a step by step guide to crossing during covid.

But I support Quebec leaving Canada, screw them and their equalization payments. 

[Hegdis]

We expect a certain level of civility around here, so knock off the personal attacks. There is no call for them and they don’t reflect well on you.

That goes for everyone. If you need to step away from this thread do it - we are meant to be adults in a profession, not angsty teenagers showing off our superior knowledge. 

[Mountebank]

55 minutes ago, Hegdis said:

We expect a certain level of civility around here, so knock off the personal attacks. There is no call for them and they don’t reflect well on you.

That goes for everyone. If you need to step away from this thread do it - we are meant to be adults in a profession, not angsty teenagers showing off our superior knowledge. 

Ignore this man!

FIGHT!

FIGHT!

FIGHT!

[Mr. Deeds]

OP, I would suggest you take the advice of people practicing in the field and have seen the realistic side of choosing the Dual JD program when entering the legal field. If your interest is in Corporate law and Bay Street, then listen more to the statistics and facts and less about 1L’s who have been in the program for 4 months. 

If your goals are Bay Street then maybe the Dual JD isn’t the best choice. 

12 hours ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

I had to check this wasn’t a new BQ satire account when I read this. 

I just laughed out loud at this comment. Lol. 

Edited January 19, 2022 by Mustang

[KC P]

Unlike the current vibe here... I actually want to get into the DUAL JD program, it's my number one choice, and I would straight away pick this program over any other choice. Having worked with American firms my entire life, and potentially seeing my future in the USA, I definitely see the Dual JD as an asset!

That being said, what are my chances of getting in?

I have a B+ average from York University, undergrad was done in 2015 in Political Science.

Recently finished my MBA from Niagara University with a GPA of 3.76

Tons of professional experience in the insurance and finance industry, and volunteer experience, especially working downtown monthly doing homeless outreach.

I would appreciate your thoughts. Thank you!

[Rashabon]

Just now, KC P said:

Unlike the current vibe here... I actually want to get into the DUAL JD program, it's my number one choice, and I would straight away pick this program over any other choice. Having worked with American firms my entire life, and potentially seeing my future in the USA, I definitely see the Dual JD as an asset!

That being said, what are my chances of getting in?

I have a B+ average from York University, undergrad was done in 2015 in Political Science.

Recently finished my MBA from Niagara University with a GPA of 3.76

Tons of professional experience in the insurance and finance industry, and volunteer experience, especially working downtown monthly doing homeless outreach.

I would appreciate your thoughts. Thank you!

You can practice in many U.S. states without a JD from Detroit Mercy, and so it is only helpful insofar as you need an ABA approved degree in order to practice, and you should still check whether it satisfies the requirements for a state you might want to practice in. This U.S bar admissions guide is helpful: https://reports.ncbex.org/comp-guide/charts/chart-4/

It's an expensive proposition to target a degree from Detroit Mercy if you would only want to practice in say, New York, because your chances are worse than if you had just gone to U of T while being equally as expensive.

Without an LSAT nobody can confirm your chances of getting in, and you should calculate your GPA the way Windsor wants you to. If you scored decently on the LSAT I'm sure you'd be able to get in because Windsor Dual has weak admissions stats.

[VitalGiraffe]

5 minutes ago, KC P said:

I actually want to get into the DUAL JD program, it's my number one choice

You're a brave soul saying that here. Godspeed.

[KC P]

9 minutes ago, VitalGiraffe said:

You're a brave soul saying that here. Godspeed.

I think it's a great program, regardless of what others may think especially when they say that UDM has a bad rep. I know people who took the program and they are doing excellent!

[Rashabon]

15 minutes ago, VitalGiraffe said:

You're a brave soul saying that here. Godspeed.

In fairness, it's a degree of last resort for a reason. Its only utility over and above another school is if the U.S. JD ticks the 3-year ABA approved school requirements that certain states have for practicing (e.g. Florida) AND you aren't sure you want to practice in the U.S. right away (because if you know you want to be in the U.S., it is much better to just go to a U.S. school. Coming back to Canada from the U.S. is actually more flexible since you would just need the NCA).

5 minutes ago, KC P said:

I think it's a great program, regardless of what others may think especially when they say that UDM has a bad rep. I know people who took the program and they are doing excellent!

I get the enthusiasm, but it is objectively not a good program and UDM is a bottom tier school. Everyone knows someone that is succeeding despite having a millstone around their neck. There is an extremely limited set of factors in which going to Windsor Dual is superior than going to a better Canadian school or going to a U.S. school. There's no point being willfully blind to the reality of it. Be enthusiastic and whatever and ignore the advice of people who say otherwise, but don't put lipstick on the pig for the sake of it.

Edited March 9, 2022 by Rashabon