Lit Lateral to NY/California

[easttowest]

I bet nobody here has done this but on the off chance: 

Has anyone lateraled to NY/Cal into a litigation group or know someone who has? I’m not planning on leaving Toronto but I’d be an idiot not to look into it a bit in this climate. 

[Zarathustra]

Also interested.

[HammurabiTime]

I've noticed some people in my network doing this in the last 3-4 months but I don't have much to offer with respect to the mechanics of making it happen.

[PzabbytheLawyer]

I've tried. Litigation lateralling wasn't happening when I tried. Lit departments weren't that busy unfortunately.

[BlockedQuebecois]

I had two offers from the NY offices of V20 firms back in the spring, all of which were initiated through my network. I also had one California interview lined up before I pulled out.

The market is definitely slower for litigation though, in that they’re not desperate for bodies the way they are for corporate lawyers. 

Edited November 25, 2021 by BlockedQuebecois

[easttowest]

2 hours ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

I had two offers from the NY offices of V20 firms back in the spring, all of which were initiated through my network. I also had one California interview lined up before I pulled out.

The market is definitely slower for litigation though, in that they’re not desperate for bodies the way they are for corporate lawyers. 

Did you end up staying in Canada? The other barrier is that I imagine just fucking hating American litigation.

[BlockedQuebecois]

My current practice (to the extent someone so junior can have a "practice") is primarily international arbitration, so there's no difference on either side of the border for me, besides quantum. 

Edited November 25, 2021 by BlockedQuebecois

[easttowest]

Well la ti da.

[Zarathustra]

I only know a few M&A lawyers and one IP lawyer that made the move. Is it even possible for a litigator to move across the border?

[Pendragon]

5 minutes ago, Zarathustra said:

I only know a few M&A lawyers and one IP lawyer that made the move. Is it even possible for a litigator to move across the border?

What skills does a Canadian litigator bring to a US corporate environment? Litigation is very jurisdictionally-based. If US litigation firms and government employers want litigators, they would just hire US lawyers that know the litigation process there. 

[OnlyResident]

Not sure if this is helpful, but I do know of several Canadian litigators that lateralled from the States. Does this speak to the possibility that the reverse is possible? 

[easttowest]

It’s definitely possible, just not as plug and play like it would be for an M&A lawyer. I was just curious if anyone here had done it.

[BlockedQuebecois]

4 hours ago, Pendragon said:

What skills does a Canadian litigator bring to a US corporate environment? Litigation is very jurisdictionally-based. If US litigation firms and government employers want litigators, they would just hire US lawyers that know the litigation process there. 

This is a very weird comment. I know plenty of litigators who went south of the border, including in the last year. Fewer than M&A, for sure, but you seem to be suggesting a US firm would never hire a Canadian litigator, and that’s just wrong. 

[Pendragon]

23 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

This is a very weird comment. I know plenty of litigators who went south of the border, including in the last year. Fewer than M&A, for sure, but you seem to be suggesting a US firm would never hire a Canadian litigator, and that’s just wrong. 

Can you link their bios or DM me the profiles? Because many people have asked this question and no one seems to know a single person that has done it. I have not seen anyone do it either. I talked to a US big law lawyer recently, who told me that they weren't looking for litigators from Canada. If you do know people who've done it, then I think that would be welcome news for many people here. 

I've seen people do it out of SCC and appellate-court clerkships but that is about it. 

Edited December 10, 2021 by Pendragon

[BlockedQuebecois]

44 minutes ago, Pendragon said:

Can you link their bios or DM me the profiles?

Sure, here's one. Andrew spent two years at Osler—as an articling student then associate—before joining the litigation group at Kirkland & Ellis in their NY office. I know others, but it starts to get identifying when you link too many people in your actual network. 

You also don't need an SCC or appellate clerkship to make the jump, right now. I know someone who clerked at the div court and is south of the border now. 

[Pendragon]

5 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

Sure, here's one. Andrew spent two years at Osler—as an articling student then associate—before joining the litigation group at Kirkland & Ellis in their NY office. I know others, but it starts to get identifying when you link too many people in your actual network. 

You also don't need an SCC or appellate clerkship to make the jump, right now. I know someone who clerked at the div court and is south of the border now. 

It seems like for litigation your academic standing matters a lot more than it does for the corporate transactional groups. 

[Conge]

2 hours ago, Pendragon said:

It seems like for litigation your academic standing matters a lot more than it does for the corporate transactional groups. 

What is your basis for that statement? I've never heard anything of the sort. 

[BlockedQuebecois]

Well litigators are clearly smarter than corporate transactional types, so it makes sense that the standards would be higher 😉 

More seriously, I think that statement is correct right now. The litigators I've seen go south are all top students who would have been competitive for NY jobs during the summer associate recruits. Andrew was in the top 10% of his class at U of T, for instance. 

In contrast, the corporate types I've seen go south are still good students who landed at top Canadian firms, but they're often (not always) the type of person who would have been a borderline interview candidate back in the summer recruits four or five years ago. I know corporate types who got roundly refused NY interviews during the summer recruit who have gone to NY or California this year, for example.

It's possible I'm out of touch with the litigation market, but in my experience the academic standards are still higher. That's really a function of the fact that firms are undeniably more interested in corporate lawyers than litigations right now. 

Edited December 10, 2021 by BlockedQuebecois

[Conge]

1 hour ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

Well litigators are clearly smarter than corporate transactional types, so it makes sense that the standards would be higher 😉 

More seriously, I think that statement is correct right now. The litigators I've seen go south are all top students who would have been competitive for NY jobs during the summer associate recruits. Andrew was in the top 10% of his class at U of T, for instance. 

In contrast, the corporate types I've seen go south are still good students who landed at top Canadian firms, but they're often (not always) the type of person who would have been a borderline interview candidate back in the summer recruits four or five years ago. I know corporate types who got roundly refused NY interviews during the summer recruit who have gone to NY or California this year, for example.

It's possible I'm out of touch with the litigation market, but in my experience the academic standards are still higher. That's really a function of the fact that firms are undeniably more interested in corporate lawyers than litigations right now. 

Maybe. I always thought it was because transactional experience is more transferable, so there are more positions available, so the competition is less for corporate jobs. But as I write this out, I realize that translates to "when applying for a litigation job, your academic standing will matter more" Clearly, I'm just a dumb corporate lawyer.

 

Edited December 10, 2021 by Conge

[Rashabon]

The US is desperate. A bunch of the people that left my group this year to go south were the bottom tier of talent in my group.

[PzabbytheLawyer]

I got asked by a firm in So Cal if I wanted to work down south in their transactional group, and got asked if I had even an articling rotation of corporate experience.

I said no to both. But that's how desperate they are for transactional right now. The closest thing I have to transactional is my undergrad, which is very far from me right now.

If they said tax I might have jumped though.

[easttowest]

I bet I could say I was trained in closing folders and have a shot somewhere. 

[Rashabon]

You could probably just say you're willing to learn on the job and they'll find a way to take you. As I alluded to above, there were associates that were bringing with them very little skills when they lift.

[easttowest]

7 minutes ago, Rashabon said:

You could probably just say you're willing to learn on the job and they'll find a way to take you. As I alluded to above, there were associates that were bringing with them very little skills when they lift.

If I thought I wanted to eventually leave law or didn’t care about my career I’d definitely have done this in August. 

[PzabbytheLawyer]

My problem is I like to think on my job. And everyone I've ever talked to has told me transactional isn't the place to be if that's the priority. But I haven't spoken to as many transactional lawyers.

@Rashabonhow did you decide between litigation and transactional?