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Overperformed on the LSAT. Should I look at HYS? Am I competitive there? [175, 3.91 cGPA, 3.93 L2, 3.94 B3]


Marco

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A lot of good information and advice here, but I think the only advice you need at this 10 seconds is: apply to the schools you are interested in going to, including UofT, HYS, and any other law school on your radar because you will be competitive everywhere.

When you get all your admissions in hand, then you'll have a lot more to consider. 

Personally, I'd apply Harvard, Yale, Columbia, and maybe Chicago, because those are places I'd want to live and/or are dream schools that I think will have instant name recognition in Canada. 

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Marco
  • Law School Admit
22 minutes ago, Conge said:

A lot of good information and advice here, but I think the only advice you need at this 10 seconds is: apply to the schools you are interested in going to, including UofT, HYS, and any other law school on your radar because you will be competitive everywhere.

When you get all your admissions in hand, then you'll have a lot more to consider. 

Personally, I'd apply Harvard, Yale, Columbia, and maybe Chicago, because those are places I'd want to live and/or are dream schools that I think will have instant name recognition in Canada. 

Thanks, that's the plan. At the moment I'm looking at HYS, UofT, Osgoode and UBC for sure. Will look at which others I want to add later.

Another question for anyone: how essential is it when pursuing these top institutions that you have a clear goal in terms of what type of law you wish to practice? I only have a vague sense of pursuing some kind of corporate, transactional / non-lit role and was hoping it figure it out after 1L or something. Do these schools expect you to define your goals more concretely? I don't have any real exposure to the legal field besides what I've read online. No friends or family in it, never worked near a law office etc.

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erin otoole
  • Lawyer
2 minutes ago, Marco said:

Thanks, that's the plan. At the moment I'm looking at HYS, UofT, Osgoode and UBC for sure. Will look at which others I want to add later.

Please also consider University of Michigan law school, they place well in the LA, DC, Chicago, NY and clerkship recruits. Known for giving good scholarships too. I encourage you to make an account on top-law-schools.com to get some better tailored advice regardless. I had an acquaintance like you that had top stats a number of years ago, and getting the info straight from the horses mouth. Get your Canadian advice here, and American there. 

Congrats on the LSAT and GPA, you should be so proud of your accomplishment and I am sure you will move onto great things in the future 🙂 . 

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Pendragon
  • Lawyer
1 hour ago, Conge said:

A lot of good information and advice here, but I think the only advice you need at this 10 seconds is: apply to the schools you are interested in going to, including UofT, HYS, and any other law school on your radar because you will be competitive everywhere.

When you get all your admissions in hand, then you'll have a lot more to consider. 

Personally, I'd apply Harvard, Yale, Columbia, and maybe Chicago, because those are places I'd want to live and/or are dream schools that I think will have instant name recognition in Canada. 

If they have to go 300k+ debt to attend these schools just to return to Canada, the name recognition is not worth it. 

OP, this is only a feasible plan if you get a lot of funding or stay in the US for a number of years.  

You don't need to know what you want to practice, but if you're going into six figures in debt, then the decision has already been made for you. 

How serious are your responsibilities in Canada? Can you afford to spend a few years in US Big law?

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Rashabon
  • Lawyer

Yeah, to be clear, being a HYS graduate does not open a single door in Canada that isn't opened already (and possibly better) than being a graduate of U of T, UBC, etc., other than perhaps legal academia. Going to those schools to come straight back to Canada is a waste.

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Marco
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2 minutes ago, Pendragon said:

If they have to go 300k+ debt to attend these schools just to return to Canada, the name recognition is not worth it. 

OP, this is only a feasible plan if you get a lot of funding or stay in the US for a number of years.  

You don't need to know what you want to practice, but if you're going into six figures in debt, then the decision has already been made for you. 

How serious are your responsibilities in Canada? Can you afford to spend a few years in US Big law?

I think I can do a few years if I have to. But what if I decide against biglaw? Or fail to acquire a job there in it? Is the remuneration for other fields so much lower that the debt would be disastrous?

Also, do you know if Canadian schools offer any funding like American ones for high-stat applicants? For example, can I expect anything less than sticker at UofT/Osgoode/UBC provided I get accepted?

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Rashabon
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1 minute ago, Marco said:

I think I can do a few years if I have to. But what if I decide against biglaw? Or fail to acquire a job there in it? Is the remuneration for other fields so much lower that the debt would be disastrous?

Also, do you know if Canadian schools offer any funding like American ones for high-stat applicants? For example, can I expect anything less than sticker at UofT/Osgoode/UBC provided I get accepted?

If you decide against big law or against clerking for a federal court/Supreme Court position in the US and ending up in a coveted attorney role, I personally don't think it's worth it. When you got to HYS you're paying for the doors that name recognition opens. Those doors are generally only in the US (and maybe the UK or something, I don't know). Unless you're getting massive funding, yeah the debt could be disastrous. These schools are materially more expensive than Canadian schools, and the cost of living isn't that much better than say, Toronto.

Canadian schools are needs-based to my knowledge. I don't recall hearing stats based scholarships given out. The American schools give those out because they want to game their rankings. Canadian schools don't have the same pressure.

I was in a slightly similar boat to you although my grades were lower so while I applied to Harvard, Yale, Columbia and NYU (that I recall - it's been way too long), I only got into NYU and it made my decision very easy since I didn't want to be in the US long term. In retrospect had I known the career path I ended up on maybe things would be different, but not really. I could have gone to US big law very easily had I wanted to at multiple points of my career but I planted roots in Canada.

I know it's tough after many years of grinding to be the best to start shutting doors and thinking "what ifs" regarding the prestige of saying you went to Yale, but the reality is you're going to start adulting after law school and you need to think about the practical realities of what that means - that means what debt you're comfortable with and what career you want for yourself. There's no shame in staying in Canada and going to a top school here instead - that's what you do when you're happy with building a life here.

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Marco
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1 minute ago, Rashabon said:

If you decide against big law or against clerking for a federal court/Supreme Court position in the US and ending up in a coveted attorney role, I personally don't think it's worth it. When you got to HYS you're paying for the doors that name recognition opens. Those doors are generally only in the US (and maybe the UK or something, I don't know). Unless you're getting massive funding, yeah the debt could be disastrous. These schools are materially more expensive than Canadian schools, and the cost of living isn't that much better than say, Toronto.

Canadian schools are needs-based to my knowledge. I don't recall hearing stats based scholarships given out. The American schools give those out because they want to game their rankings. Canadian schools don't have the same pressure.

Oh okay. I'll have to look into needs-based funding. I'm an only child of a single parent and we're both low income. Perhaps some of these schools are generous to people in my situation?

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Rashabon
  • Lawyer
1 minute ago, Marco said:

Oh okay. I'll have to look into needs-based funding. I'm an only child of a single parent and we're both low income. Perhaps some of these schools are generous to people in my situation?

My understanding is U of T has a decent needs-based funding program:

https://www.law.utoronto.ca/financial-aid-calculator

You should plug in your details and check it out there. Anecdotally from years on the forum I've seen a number of people confirm their estimates were fairly accurate.

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Pendragon
  • Lawyer
14 minutes ago, Marco said:

Oh okay. I'll have to look into needs-based funding. I'm an only child of a single parent and we're both low income. Perhaps some of these schools are generous to people in my situation?

Lol...stellar stats, only child of a single parent, low-income...

Dude, your tuition is going to be majorly paid off in Canada through needs-based funding. 

Yes, outside of US Big law people report starting salaries of 60-80k in some fields. Some prestigious public sector jobs start you at 50k. The living costs coupled with student debt could very well be disastrous for you. You need to take off the rose coloured glasses and think about this rationally. Rashabon is a senior Associate on Bay Street and even he just told you that a HYS degree does not open a single door in Canada outside of legal academia. 

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Marco
  • Law School Admit
1 minute ago, Pendragon said:

Lol...stellar stats, only child of a single parent, low-income...

Dude, your tuition is going to be majorly paid off in Canada through needs-based funding. 

Yes, outside of US Big law people report starting salaries of 60-80k in some fields. Some prestigious public sector jobs start you at 50k. The living costs coupled with student debt could very well be disastrous for you. You need to take off the rose coloured glasses and think about this rationally. Rashabon is a senior Associate on Bay Street and even he just told you that a HYS degree does not open a single door in Canada outside of legal academia. 

Yeah, I'm by no means set on attending HYS. I probably won't even be accepted. But even if I do I won't attend unless the financial calculations pan out with funding/scholarships etc.

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BlockedQuebecois
  • Lawyer
20 minutes ago, Pendragon said:

You need to take off the rose coloured glasses and think about this rationally. Rashabon is a senior Associate on Bay Street and even he just told you that a HYS degree does not open a single door in Canada outside of legal academia. 

I don’t think this is warranted. 

First off, I don’t read OP as having “rose coloured glasses” on. They seem to be asking the right questions and considering their options in a relatively rational way, which they should do. 

Second, I don’t think Rashabon said a HYS degree does not open a single door in Canada outside legal academia. He said the doors are generally in the US. 

To the extent Rashabon did say that (which I don’t think he did), I would push back on that. A HYS degree is valuable in Canada and would keep plenty of doors open, including clerkships and jobs at top tier firms.

Is it worth the extra tuition (assuming sticker price) and the hurdle of the NCA? No, because those doors are also open to good students at good schools in Canada. But it’s not like a HYS degree doesn’t carry any weight in Canada. It’s just a lot less than it carries in the US, and mainly just puts you on a level playing field with good students from good Canadian schools. 

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Deadpool
  • Lawyer

I want to offer a slightly different take on this situation. Similar to you, I come from a low-income household. I am a public interest lawyer. I've contemplated pursuing jobs abroad in the public interest space, like working at the UN and that sort of thing. My decision-making process always came back to the same thing - my family. I did not feel that putting that kind of distance between my ageing parents and my younger siblings and myself was worth it. I suspect that you do not want to be separated for long periods of time from your single parent as well. I think this is an important factor to consider in your decision-making process. A lot of the people that wash out of Big law cite similar reasons like work-life balance, no time for family and friends, etc. Making a lot of money seems like a worthwhile pursuit, until you start losing out on quality time with loved ones along the way. 

Canada is one of the best countries to live in in the world. I don't see the quality of life being better in the US; in fact, it could be worse depending on where you live. If you are deciding to put in the years into US big law, then I would encourage you to also think about the other things that you may want in your life, like staying connected with your parent, starting a family, etc. Definitely look into all the funding you can get. Make the best decision you can for yourself, which will allow you to have the quality of life that you want with your loved ones, and not just prestige. Good luck in your decision.

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Marco
  • Law School Admit
25 minutes ago, Deadpool said:

I want to offer a slightly different take on this situation. Similar to you, I come from a low-income household. I am a public interest lawyer. I've contemplated pursuing jobs abroad in the public interest space, like working at the UN and that sort of thing. My decision-making process always came back to the same thing - my family. I did not feel that putting that kind of distance between my ageing parents and my younger siblings and myself was worth it. I suspect that you do not want to be separated for long periods of time from your single parent as well. I think this is an important factor to consider in your decision-making process. A lot of the people that wash out of Big law cite similar reasons like work-life balance, no time for family and friends, etc. Making a lot of money seems like a worthwhile pursuit, until you start losing out on quality time with loved ones along the way. 

Canada is one of the best countries to live in in the world. I don't see the quality of life being better in the US; in fact, it could be worse depending on where you live. If you are deciding to put in the years into US big law, then I would encourage you to also think about the other things that you may want in your life, like staying connected with your parent, starting a family, etc. Definitely look into all the funding you can get. Make the best decision you can for yourself, which will allow you to have the quality of life that you want with your loved ones, and not just prestige. Good luck in your decision.

Wow, you've really hit it on the nail about the parent situation. We've pretty much only had each other all our lives, esp with me being an only child. The prospect of moving away for a long period to study and to work some dreadful biglaw job just for the money isn't all that attractive. I'm almost certain I'll stay in Canada atm, but I'll still give those other schools a look to keep my options open / avoid any late-life regretful 'what-ifs'.

Appreciate the thoughtful reply!

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Rashabon
  • Lawyer
1 hour ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

I don’t think this is warranted. 

First off, I don’t read OP as having “rose coloured glasses” on. They seem to be asking the right questions and considering their options in a relatively rational way, which they should do. 

Second, I don’t think Rashabon said a HYS degree does not open a single door in Canada outside legal academia. He said the doors are generally in the US. 

To the extent Rashabon did say that (which I don’t think he did), I would push back on that. A HYS degree is valuable in Canada and would keep plenty of doors open, including clerkships and jobs at top tier firms.

Is it worth the extra tuition (assuming sticker price) and the hurdle of the NCA? No, because those doors are also open to good students at good schools in Canada. But it’s not like a HYS degree doesn’t carry any weight in Canada. It’s just a lot less than it carries in the US, and mainly just puts you on a level playing field with good students from good Canadian schools. 

Yes, I agree with this. It wasn't that they don't open doors at all, it's that they don't open additional doors in Canada that aren't opened by being a graduate from a top Canadian school. For example, SCC clerks are by and large Canadian law school graduates as are the vast majority of all big law candidates and prestigious public secotr positions, etc. Is this selection bias? Sure, of course. But the point is that you don't need a HYS degree to get those jobs. A HYS degree won't preclude you from getting some of them, but it isn't necessary and the cost of getting such a degree only to end up in the same spot as a U of T or Osgoode graduate immediately after graduating isn't worth it. I believe we're on the same page about it.

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easttowest
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4 hours ago, Marco said:

Thanks, that's the plan. At the moment I'm looking at HYS, UofT, Osgoode and UBC for sure. Will look at which others I want to add later.

Another question for anyone: how essential is it when pursuing these top institutions that you have a clear goal in terms of what type of law you wish to practice? I only have a vague sense of pursuing some kind of corporate, transactional / non-lit role and was hoping it figure it out after 1L or something. Do these schools expect you to define your goals more concretely? I don't have any real exposure to the legal field besides what I've read online. No friends or family in it, never worked near a law office etc.

To answer you last question, I highly doubt it. In fact, I don’t know that any school prides itself on turning out classes ready to take on transactional work (apart from, like, Western). 

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buoy
  • Law School Admit
4 hours ago, Marco said:

Oh okay. I'll have to look into needs-based funding. I'm an only child of a single parent and we're both low income. Perhaps some of these schools are generous to people in my situation?

Definitely check out the financial aid calculators on the HYS websites then. I was in a similar situation to you last year. Unexpectedly overperformed on the LSAT, suddenly had options available that I didn't think would be, and was definitely tempted by the allure of those US schools. I want to live in Canada, so I didn't end up applying. But it was an especially bitter decision because I'll end up paying tens of thousands of dollars more at U of T than I would to go to any of HYS (at least according to the schools' financial aid calculators). In general the top US schools seem to offer better need-based and merit-based aid. 

The calculation might work out differently for you depending on how much money you made during your 5 years' work experience. HYS start to phase out consideration of parental resources earlier than Canadian schools. I forget the exact age, but at some point in your late 20s they consider you completely independent and don't take parental resources into consideration at all. Whereas Canadian schools don't consider you independent until you're well into your 30s. I dunno if that'll help or hinder you, but you can check it out on their websites. Can't vouch for their accuracy, but my undergrad financial aid package from an American university ended up being pretty much exactly what the online simulator told me it would be

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Electricity
  • Law Student

Even if your goal is to pursue legal academia, the impression I've gotten looking at my law school's faculty is that a lot of professors do their lower level degrees (BA, JD, etc.) in Canada, and then move to top schools in the U.S. for their LLM or JSD. I assume this is also common at other Canadian law schools, but it'd be worth looking into in more detail. Obviously you don't need an American JSD to teach in Canada, but getting these more advanced degrees from prestigious U.S. schools is where I'd speculate it really helps. 

Congratulations on your score. I'm looking forward to hearing what you decide for this cycle so keep us posted. 

 

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Marco
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1 hour ago, buoy said:

Definitely check out the financial aid calculators on the HYS websites then. I was in a similar situation to you last year. Unexpectedly overperformed on the LSAT, suddenly had options available that I didn't think would be, and was definitely tempted by the allure of those US schools. I want to live in Canada, so I didn't end up applying. But it was an especially bitter decision because I'll end up paying tens of thousands of dollars more at U of T than I would to go to any of HYS (at least according to the schools' financial aid calculators). In general the top US schools seem to offer better need-based and merit-based aid. 

The calculation might work out differently for you depending on how much money you made during your 5 years' work experience. HYS start to phase out consideration of parental resources earlier than Canadian schools. I forget the exact age, but at some point in your late 20s they consider you completely independent and don't take parental resources into consideration at all. Whereas Canadian schools don't consider you independent until you're well into your 30s. I dunno if that'll help or hinder you, but you can check it out on their websites. Can't vouch for their accuracy, but my undergrad financial aid package from an American university ended up being pretty much exactly what the online simulator told me it would be

You're right, I just tinkered with the online calculators for Harvard / Yale and their need based grants appear far more extensive & charitable than I imagined. Doing a cursory look online, apparently HYS are unique in their largesse in needs-based grants (but they don't offer any merit based ones unlike other t-14s).

42 minutes ago, Electricity said:

Even if your goal is to pursue legal academia, the impression I've gotten looking at my law school's faculty is that a lot of professors do their lower level degrees (BA, JD, etc.) in Canada, and then move to top schools in the U.S. for their LLM or JSD. I assume this is also common at other Canadian law schools, but it'd be worth looking into in more detail. Obviously you don't need an American JSD to teach in Canada, but getting these more advanced degrees from prestigious U.S. schools is where I'd speculate it really helps. 

Congratulations on your score. I'm looking forward to hearing what you decide for this cycle so keep us posted. 

 

Ah, that's interesting. But legal academia is too lofty a goal for me to consider a meaningful benefit at this stage 😅
 
Thanks for the sentiment. I'll be applying for the next cycle actually. Hopefully nothing untoward happens to intensify its competitiveness like what I hear of 2020.

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CleanHands
  • Lawyer
1 minute ago, Marco said:

Ah, that's interesting. Legal academia is too lofty a goal for me to consider meaningful benefit at this stage 😅

Not to go off topic but I just wanted to say that despite some of the best stats of anyone to appear on this forum or its predecessor, your humility, level-headedness, realism and focus on practical outcomes over prestige is really refreshing. You should be able to go wherever you want and you deserve it. Good luck with whatever works out best for you and you choose to pursue.

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Marco
  • Law School Admit
10 minutes ago, CleanHands said:

Not to go off topic but I just wanted to say that despite some of the best stats of anyone to appear on this forum or its predecessor, your humility, level-headedness, realism and focus on practical outcomes over prestige is really refreshing. You should be able to go wherever you want and you deserve it. Good luck with whatever works out best for you and you choose to pursue.

Thank you, that's a really kind thing to say. Personally, I'd ascribe most of my 'modesty' to a deficiency in self-confidence as opposed to any real virtue. I've never been a self-driven, high achieving type. The only thing I've ever been good at is applying myself to study and doing well on various tests. In fact, one reason I avoided pursuing law school out of undergrad was because I saw myself as incapable or unsuitable for law, mostly due to the attributes I observed in aspiring lawyers (the debt was no small issue either). Spending time in the working world has allayed some of these insecurities but I trust them to flare up powerfully if I do get into a top school.

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CrimeAndPunishment
  • Applicant
On 12/1/2021 at 10:11 AM, Marco said:

Thanks.

I was aiming for Canadian biglaw in the first place and frankly hadn't looked at any American options until my LSAT score release. My understanding is that American biglaw involves a similar about of work for considerably greater salaries, so I was just rethinking my options. If I were to practice for some years in America, I could payoff that loan before returning to Canada, right?

How would the Canadian legal market perceive, for example, a Harvard lawyer with some years of experience returning to Canada? Would the "prestige" carryover?

I would apply to Columbia and NYU, you should get in and I heard that there is about a 70% chance of getting a big law job paying $140,000 or more. Now I’m not sure but this is what I heard, they are both in Manhattan so it would be easy to go to interviews there.

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On 12/2/2021 at 12:34 PM, Pendragon said:

If they have to go 300k+ debt to attend these schools just to return to Canada, the name recognition is not worth it. 

OP, this is only a feasible plan if you get a lot of funding or stay in the US for a number of years.  

You don't need to know what you want to practice, but if you're going into six figures in debt, then the decision has already been made for you. 

How serious are your responsibilities in Canada? Can you afford to spend a few years in US Big law?

Sure, but what if they get a scholarship that makes Columbia the same price as UofT, for example? Personally, I'd seriously consider going to Columbia and working in NY or another major Amercian market for a few years. Point being, until they know what offers are on the table there are no more decision to be made except to apply where they want to go to law school, and, with their stats, they might as well apply any where they might want to go. 

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Pendragon
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15 minutes ago, Conge said:

Sure, but what if they get a scholarship that makes Columbia the same price as UofT, for example? Personally, I'd seriously consider going to Columbia and working in NY or another major Amercian market for a few years. Point being, until they know what offers are on the table there are no more decision to be made except to apply where they want to go to law school, and, with their stats, they might as well apply any where they might want to go. 

I agree they should definitely apply and see where they get in and what scholarships and needs-based funding they can get. OP seems like they do not care too much about US Big law and also says they don't want to be separated from their family for long periods of time, so going to these schools at sticker price in their situation doesn't make sense. If they said they wanted to do US big law or spend a few years or more in the US, then I'd tell them to take a top US school even at sticker, but that doesn't seem to be the case right now. 

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Marco
  • Law School Admit
1 hour ago, Pendragon said:

I agree they should definitely apply and see where they get in and what scholarships and needs-based funding they can get. OP seems like they do not care too much about US Big law and also says they don't want to be separated from their family for long periods of time, so going to these schools at sticker price in their situation doesn't make sense. If they said they wanted to do US big law or spend a few years or more in the US, then I'd tell them to take a top US school even at sticker, but that doesn't seem to be the case right now. 

How many years does one have to work in biglaw (US or Canadian) before quality exit opportunities materialize (in-house? other work with better work life balance?)

I've been thinking about the separation aspect and it might not be as dire as I was fearing. By the time I finish uni, my parent will be nearing retirement age. They don't make much money in the first place and given what I've seen of US biglaw salaries, I could probably support a bit earlier of a retirement for them? It also shouldn't be too hard to bring them over to visit temporarily in phases either, since there aren't any VISA hurdles for Canadians. They don't have strong attachments in Canada that would pin them down here besides me.

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