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U of C versus Queen's


sjwmk

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sjwmk
  • Law School Admit

Looking for some insight here. Did my undergrad at UofC and that's where my family is. I received acceptance from Queen's today. I'd like to work in Immigration/Refugee Law and I have an interest in International Law . I will perhaps move back to Calgary (family and all). Just wondering in terms of reputation etc. which school is better and more catered towards my interests etc? Please provide your honest opinions! Thank you in advance 🙂

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Deadpool
  • Lawyer
1 hour ago, sjwmk said:

Looking for some insight here. Did my undergrad at UofC and that's where my family is. I received acceptance from Queen's today. I'd like to work in Immigration/Refugee Law and I have an interest in International Law . I will perhaps move back to Calgary (family and all). Just wondering in terms of reputation etc. which school is better and more catered towards my interests etc? Please provide your honest opinions! Thank you in advance 🙂

How certain are you that you want to practice immigration and refugee law and/or move back to Calgary. Because if that is the case, you should go to U of C for very obvious reasons. First, the immigration bar in Calgary is really small, so you want to attend a local school to network effectively. Second, refugee law would not pay as well as other areas of law, so you want to minimize your debt load as much as possible. Third, Queen's does not have any immigration clinics and is not "known" for immigration law, so it does not offer any advantages compared to U of C to justify the added costs. Finally, the practice of law is primarily jurisdictional so "international law" is not really a thing unless you are dealing with cross-border issues (i.e. international trade, international tax, etc).

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TheDevilIKnow
  • Articling Student

I would just add the tiniest little detail to Deadpool's comprehensive answer, which is that Calgary also has (occasional) sittings of the Federal Court. All Immigration work (judicial reviews and stays, in the main) is in the FC. This will be helpful for any learning opportunities to observe hearings or, if you're lucky, volunteer with some local immigration practice. Also, if you want to go to the dark side, the Calgary DOJ office has a small Immigration section that you could always aim for. Neither of these things are true in Kingston!

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Philosophy
  • Law Student
12 minutes ago, TheDevilIKnow said:

I would just add the tiniest little detail to Deadpool's comprehensive answer, which is that Calgary also has (occasional) sittings of the Federal Court. All Immigration work (judicial reviews and stays, in the main) is in the FC. This will be helpful for any learning opportunities to observe hearings or, if you're lucky, volunteer with some local immigration practice. Also, if you want to go to the dark side, the Calgary DOJ office has a small Immigration section that you could always aim for. Neither of these things are true in Kingston!

Apologies for being completely ignorant on the subject, but why is the DOJ considered the dark side? 

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MSK2021
  • Lawyer

One thing worth addressing is that Queen's is responsible for educating prospective immigration consultants and, as such, might develop a bit of a niche in immigration/refugee law over time.

At present though I'm not sure if Queen's has any advantage over U of C.

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Pendragon
  • Lawyer
18 minutes ago, Philosophy said:

Apologies for being completely ignorant on the subject, but why is the DOJ considered the dark side? 

I've been told that they do a lot of removal orders. So if you are a pro-refugee/immigration advocate, it may not be the best place for you to work. I have friends working in private practice and legal aid that absolutely despise DOJ lawyers. Some DOJ lawyers are also very aggressive in the courtroom.

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MSK2021
  • Lawyer
15 minutes ago, Philosophy said:

Apologies for being completely ignorant on the subject, but why is the DOJ considered the dark side? 

Most often folks that say they're interested in immigration and refugee law are people that would like to help immigrants/refugees.

You can do a bit of that at DOJ (for example, by helping ensure administrative decision makers understand their obligations and the state of the law) but you'll also spend a lot of time defending decisions that are detrimental to immigrants/refugees (either as individuals or as a class).

It's an interesting question though. When people say they're interested in criminal law it isn't a given whether they're interested in prosecution or defense work. However, when people say they're interested in immigration/refugee law, animal welfare law, environmental law, etc. I think a lot of us imagine that they're interested in a particular kind of legal advocacy.

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Philosophy
  • Law Student
1 minute ago, Pendragon said:

I've been told that they do a lot of removal orders. So if you are a pro-refugee/immigration advocate, it may not be the best place for you to work. I have friends working in private practice and legal aid that absolutely despise DOJ lawyers. Some DOJ lawyers are also very aggressive in the courtroom.

1 minute ago, MSK2021 said:

Most often folks that say they're interested in immigration and refugee law are people that would like to help immigrants/refugees.

You can do a bit of that at DOJ (for example, by helping ensure administrative decision makers understand their obligations and the state of the law) but you'll also spend a lot of time defending decisions that are detrimental to immigrants/refugees (either as individuals or as a class).

It's an interesting question though. When people say they're interested in criminal law it isn't a given whether they're interested in prosecution or defense work. However, when people say they're interested in immigration/refugee law, animal welfare law, environmental law, etc. I think a lot of us imagine that they're interested in a particular kind of legal advocacy.

Right right, I too am guilty of automatically assuming that someone interested in immigration/refugee law would be interested in advocating for them to stay in country X, rather than arguing for them to leave said country. 

 

Thank you both for your explanation!

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Pendragon
  • Lawyer
3 minutes ago, Philosophy said:

Right right, I too am guilty of automatically assuming that someone interested in immigration/refugee law would be interested in advocating for them to stay in country X, rather than arguing for them to leave said country. 

 

Thank you both for your explanation!

The decision is often made for you anyways, because most immigration lawyers work in small firms or as sole practitioners. Getting government jobs in general is difficult, and then if you want to be specific and look at niche practice areas like immigration or environmental, you won't find many organizations hiring lawyers to do this work. 

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TheDevilIKnow
  • Articling Student
2 hours ago, Pendragon said:

Some DOJ lawyers are also very aggressive in the courtroom.

In my experience this is not something that would hold true as a general trend at all; this of course does not mean it's not true of "some" DOJ lawyers.

 

2 hours ago, Philosophy said:

Right right, I too am guilty of automatically assuming that someone interested in immigration/refugee law would be interested in advocating for them to stay in country X, rather than arguing for them to leave said country. 

Just to be clear (and this is not contradicting Pendragon at all, just adding a bit of context): DOJ lawyers don't argue for people to leave the country, per se. What they argue is that the civil-servant decision makers/tribunals were reasonable in previously making that order. Most immigration law is really a subset of "administrative law"; the wrangling at the actual court level is not about the merits of a person's immigration situation, but rather whether those merits were "reasonably" adjudicated by the Administrative Decision Maker in question (the Immigration Division, etc.)

And to be clear, my "dark side" comment was just a reflection of the fact that, for most law students, the Government are the bad guys. Not an actual assessment of what government work is really like.

Edited by TheDevilIKnow
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sjwmk
  • Law School Admit
17 hours ago, Deadpool said:

How certain are you that you want to practice immigration and refugee law and/or move back to Calgary. Because if that is the case, you should go to U of C for very obvious reasons. First, the immigration bar in Calgary is really small, so you want to attend a local school to network effectively. Second, refugee law would not pay as well as other areas of law, so you want to minimize your debt load as much as possible. Third, Queen's does not have any immigration clinics and is not "known" for immigration law, so it does not offer any advantages compared to U of C to justify the added costs. Finally, the practice of law is primarily jurisdictional so "international law" is not really a thing unless you are dealing with cross-border issues (i.e. international trade, international tax, etc).

Thank you all for your insightful answers. I'm not absolutely sure which field i'd like to work in. Which university would you say offers the most broad range though? I know queen's has a lot of different clinics, is the same of UofC? 

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Deadpool
  • Lawyer
1 hour ago, sjwmk said:

Thank you all for your insightful answers. I'm not absolutely sure which field i'd like to work in. Which university would you say offers the most broad range though? I know queen's has a lot of different clinics, is the same of UofC? 

Osgoode has the most clinical programs out of all law schools. For immigration specifically, there is the Intensive Program in Immigration & Refugee Law, Community & Legal Aid Services Program (CLASP), and Intensive Program in Poverty Law at Parkdale Community Legal Services. 

https://www.osgoode.yorku.ca/programs/juris-doctor/jd-program/clinics-intensives/ 

https://law.queensu.ca/programs/jd/experiential-learning/clinics 

https://clg.ab.ca/programs-services/legal-clinics/ 

All law schools will have clinical programs, but some have fewer options and diversity in their selection than others. Calgary has a lot of partnership outreach clinics like the Immigrant Services Calgary (ISC). If you want to work in Calgary, then in addition to the points that has been mentioned above, participating in these clinical programs will help you build your experience, network, and credibility in the area.

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22 minutes ago, Deadpool said:

Osgoode has the most clinical programs out of all law schools. For immigration specifically, there is the Intensive Program in Immigration & Refugee Law, Community & Legal Aid Services Program (CLASP), and Intensive Program in Poverty Law at Parkdale Community Legal Services. 

https://www.osgoode.yorku.ca/programs/juris-doctor/jd-program/clinics-intensives/ 

https://law.queensu.ca/programs/jd/experiential-learning/clinics 

https://clg.ab.ca/programs-services/legal-clinics/ 

All law schools will have clinical programs, but some have fewer options and diversity in their selection than others. Calgary has a lot of partnership outreach clinics like the Immigrant Services Calgary (ISC). If you want to work in Calgary, then in addition to the points that has been mentioned above, participating in these clinical programs will help you build your experience, network, and credibility in the area.

I would reiterate @Deadpool's earlier point about debt load when considering Osgoode. If someone is paying sticker at Osgoode and is debt-funding a significant portion, you're going to be limited in the immigration and refugee law jobs you can afford to take afterwards while still making payments. The Parkdale immigration section can be a good way into immigration and refugee law. But the extra $20,000.00 or whatever you pay for three years at Osgoode is consequential if you might end working at small firms, as a sole, or at a clinic. 

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sjwmk
  • Law School Admit
46 minutes ago, Deadpool said:

Osgoode has the most clinical programs out of all law schools. For immigration specifically, there is the Intensive Program in Immigration & Refugee Law, Community & Legal Aid Services Program (CLASP), and Intensive Program in Poverty Law at Parkdale Community Legal Services. 

https://www.osgoode.yorku.ca/programs/juris-doctor/jd-program/clinics-intensives/ 

https://law.queensu.ca/programs/jd/experiential-learning/clinics 

https://clg.ab.ca/programs-services/legal-clinics/ 

All law schools will have clinical programs, but some have fewer options and diversity in their selection than others. Calgary has a lot of partnership outreach clinics like the Immigrant Services Calgary (ISC). If you want to work in Calgary, then in addition to the points that has been mentioned above, participating in these clinical programs will help you build your experience, network, and credibility in the area.

 

17 minutes ago, realpseudonym said:

I would reiterate @Deadpool's earlier point about debt load when considering Osgoode. If someone is paying sticker at Osgoode and is debt-funding a significant portion, you're going to be limited in the immigration and refugee law jobs you can afford to take afterwards while still making payments. The Parkdale immigration section can be a good way into immigration and refugee law. But the extra $20,000.00 or whatever you pay for three years at Osgoode is consequential if you might end working at small firms, as a sole, or at a clinic. 

Thank you so much for this! I didn't apply to Osgoode because I think the prestige isn't worth the price tag LOL. Sorry if i'm being confusing. I am confused myself. I haven't actually heard back from u of c yet but assuming that I do get an offer, would you say Queen's grads have more job prospects etc, and if we factor in the ability to live and work anywhere in Canada, which university would you say has more potential for all of this? 

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16 hours ago, TheDevilIKnow said:

DOJ lawyers don't argue for people to leave the country, per se. What they argue is that the civil-servant decision makers/tribunals were reasonable in previously making that order. Most immigration law is really a subset of "administrative law"; the wrangling at the actual court level is not about the merits of a person's immigration situation, but rather whether those merits were "reasonably" adjudicated by the Administrative Decision Maker in question (the Immigration Division, etc.)

On judicial reviews, you're right. But as noted by @Pendragon, they also argue against the granting of stay motions. Which often involves taking the position that the evidence doesn't give rise to irreparable harm upon removal. And insofar as new evidence not before the original decision-maker is often raised in support of irreparable harm, DOJ lawyers respond to that. I would characterize that as wrangling with the merits of a person's immigration situation. And when they oppose a stay of removal, they are de facto arguing for a person to leave the country. In my opinion. 

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Eatable Bran
  • Law Student
7 hours ago, sjwmk said:

 

Thank you so much for this! I didn't apply to Osgoode because I think the prestige isn't worth the price tag LOL. Sorry if i'm being confusing. I am confused myself. I haven't actually heard back from u of c yet but assuming that I do get an offer, would you say Queen's grads have more job prospects etc, and if we factor in the ability to live and work anywhere in Canada, which university would you say has more potential for all of this? 

I don't think you could go wrong with the either. Queen's would probably give you a slight edge if applying for work in Ontario, but U of C would probably give you a slight edge applying for work in Alberta. Since you've indicated an interest in working in Calgary, I would give U of C the upper hand. It is still a respectable school in Ontario, Queen's just has more graduates in the market and is a more known quantity to employers. This is to say, you won't be precluded from securing a job in Ontario out of U of C. 

I don't think the cost of moving and being far from your family (and thus booking flights home for holidays I assume) is worth it to be honest, coming from a Calgarian who is studying in Ontario currently. Not to mention, if you' get on with your family, that could be a very welcome support during law school.

PM me if you'd like to talk more about it, I'd be happy to. 

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Pantalaimon
  • Lawyer
On 12/10/2021 at 8:56 AM, sjwmk said:

Thank you all for your insightful answers. I'm not absolutely sure which field i'd like to work in. Which university would you say offers the most broad range though? I know queen's has a lot of different clinics, is the same of UofC? 

With the caveat that I love UofC and I'm very glad that I dodged Ontario levels of debt, UCalgary is very corporate focused. The class of 2020, for example, placed 2/3 in some form of corporate law. When you throw in clerks and the ride-or-die criminal types, that doesn't leave much for the fields that you've expressed interest in to date. That can be a good thing! For instance, my few classmates that were interested in family law had a very easy job hunt. But in terms of breadth I'd have to imagine Queen's course offerings are broader.

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