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Vacation Time


TorontoLaw17

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TorontoLaw17
  • Law Student

Does anyone know whether all firms give vacation time during articling? Is it bad to take vacation time even if its offered?

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easttowest
  • Lawyer

I don’t know about all firms but every large firm I’m aware of does. Unless you get paid out for not taking it (which is common) I’d say take all of it. I took the money instead. 

My philosophy to articling (and seeking a hireback) was to establish exactly who I was in the workplace. You do not want to be known as the person who will drop everything for the firm and work obscene hours. Your peers will do this and many will burn out. If they expected me to not take what was offered and in fact judged me for it, then boy would I not want to work there anyway. 

People will disagree and say that getting the job is most important, but why treat yourself badly for a job you don’t want anyway?

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I think vacation is pretty standard, though I’m also pretty sure that there is no obligation on the part of the employer to offer it. 
 

Personally, I plan on taking mine at the end of my articling term to effectively shorten articling.  I don’t know if this is “bad”, but I don’t really care. I’m entitled to it, so I’m gonna take it. 

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OzLaw16
  • Lawyer
On 12/16/2021 at 9:19 PM, easttowest said:

My philosophy to articling (and seeking a hireback) was to establish exactly who I was in the workplace. You do not want to be known as the person who will drop everything for the firm and work obscene hours.

Just want to co-sign this and really stress how important I've found it to be for my articling experience. Your life feels way less stressful and way less exhausting when you make a commitment to yourself early on that (within reason, obviously) you won't let articling completely consume your entire life and that you'll allow yourself to meet personal commitments. And for what it's worth, every time I've had to tell a lawyer that I'll be out for an evening or that I'll be away on a vacation day, they've been very understanding. As long as you give the lawyers you're in the middle of working with advance notice and offer accommodation/a game plan, you'll very likely be fine (and as easttowest suggests, any firm where you're not fine if you do that is likely a place you won't want to work at).

To more directly answer the OP's question, I'm at a large Bay Street firm and we're very strongly encouraged to use all of our vacation days by the end of articling. A student who didn't use a majority of their vacation days would be perceived worse here than one who uses all of them.

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easttowest
  • Lawyer
10 hours ago, Snax said:

Personally, I plan on taking mine at the end of my articling term to effectively shorten articling.  I don’t know if this is “bad”, but I don’t really care. I’m entitled to it, so I’m gonna take it. 

That’s a fairly common move. People do it,

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Rashabon
  • Lawyer

If I got paid out I probably wouldn't have taken my full entitlement, but my firm told us it was use it or lose it and we were strongly encouraged to take it. I took a few days here and there and then shortened my articling term by a bit by taking the rest at the very end.

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PzabbytheLawyer
  • Lawyer

I got paid out. I took maybe half my entitlement during, and got paid out for the rest. There wasn't much I could do with it during the pandemic anyway. I took it whenever things were somewhat open, or if I had something in place that changed my scenery.

What I'd say, at least if you're like me, is if you are paid out, don't take it and just chill at home. You'll feel like you wasted it. Even if you plan a whole day outside, even in the same city, but doing something you normally can't do on top of work, then it's worth it in my mind.

Vacations help heal by separating you from your daily life and truly disconnecting. At least for me.

 

 

 

 

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Fiona Apple
  • Lawyer

Vacation time during articling is regulated by the LSO (and presumably other law societies). For Ontario, it's 10 days. I've seen pretty mixed things about whether firms will pay you out for that time (my firm did, but lots of comparable firms did not). I would take it, especially if you don't get paid out.

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In BC and Alberta, I think it is 10 days. I believe 10 is the max the LSBC allows. In Alberta, some firms offer up to 15 days but not sure what are the LSA's rules around that. Paid out or not depends on the firm.  

EDIT: this may not answer your question but might provide you with more context. 

Edited by Ramesses
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Rashabon
  • Lawyer
On 12/25/2021 at 5:01 PM, Fiona Apple said:

Vacation time during articling is regulated by the LSO (and presumably other law societies). For Ontario, it's 10 days. I've seen pretty mixed things about whether firms will pay you out for that time (my firm did, but lots of comparable firms did not). I would take it, especially if you don't get paid out.

This is not correct.

"Vacation time" or "vacation days" are a private matter between the principal and the articling student. You're only entitled to request 7 business days off to study for each licensing exam if you're taking it during your articling placement.

Under LSO rules, you're entitled to 8 business days (it was 10, when articling was 10 months) without having your articling extend, but your employer doesn't have to give you those.

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BCLaw2021
  • Lawyer
On 12/16/2021 at 5:26 PM, TorontoLaw17 said:

Does anyone know whether all firms give vacation time during articling? Is it bad to take vacation time even if its offered?

The fact that this question is still being asked reflects a bit poorly on the state of our profession. How are lawyers supposed to protect the legal interests of employees if they themselves feel "bad" about exercising their own contractual rights?

Edited by BCLaw2021
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BlockedQuebecois
  • Lawyer
3 hours ago, BCLaw2021 said:

The fact that this question is still being asked reflects a bit poorly on the state of our profession. How are lawyers supposed to protect the legal interests of employees if they themselves feel "bad" about exercising their own contractual rights?

Well as a starter, the vast majority of lawyers aren’t in the business of protecting the legal interests of employees. 

But even if you limit your question to labour and employment lawyers who represent employees, it’s a dumb question.

First off, there’s a huge difference between choosing to exercise your strict contractual rights and pushing back against illegal termination or other illegal practices as a result of an employee exercising their strict contractual rights. 

Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, one’s ability to advocate is relatively unmoored from one’s life experience. I’ve never (allegedly) participated in a 100 million plus USD fraudulent commodities arbitrage scheme, but I can represent someone who (allegedly) has just fine. 

A criminal lawyer may well acquiesce to an illegal search because they know telling the cops it is illegal is unlikely to be productive, but that doesn’t mean they can’t effectively represent an accused who has a valid section 8 claim. 

I think lawyers need to be much better at setting professional boundaries. And I think the failure to set professional boundaries can lead to subpar representation for clients. But that drop in quality is due to burnout and overwork, not because failing to exercise your strict legal rights somehow means you can’t effectively advocate for those who have had those legal rights violated. 

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napqueen
  • Law Student

@Fiona Apple I think what you were referring to was that the LSO has a rule that an articling student may have no more than 10 vacation days - but this does not mean that they are entitled to those 10 days

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BCLaw2021
  • Lawyer
5 hours ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

Well as a starter, the vast majority of lawyers aren’t in the business of protecting the legal interests of employees. 

But even if you limit your question to labour and employment lawyers who represent employees, it’s a dumb question.

First off, there’s a huge difference between choosing to exercise your strict contractual rights and pushing back against illegal termination or other illegal practices as a result of an employee exercising their strict contractual rights. 

Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, one’s ability to advocate is relatively unmoored from one’s life experience. I’ve never (allegedly) participated in a 100 million plus USD fraudulent commodities arbitrage scheme, but I can represent someone who (allegedly) has just fine. 

A criminal lawyer may well acquiesce to an illegal search because they know telling the cops it is illegal is unlikely to be productive, but that doesn’t mean they can’t effectively represent an accused who has a valid section 8 claim. 

I think lawyers need to be much better at setting professional boundaries. And I think the failure to set professional boundaries can lead to subpar representation for clients. But that drop in quality is due to burnout and overwork, not because failing to exercise your strict legal rights somehow means you can’t effectively advocate for those who have had those legal rights violated. 

There's a difference between public confidence and professional competence. 

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BlockedQuebecois
  • Lawyer
38 minutes ago, BCLaw2021 said:

There's a difference between public confidence and professional competence. 

I don't think the public is losing confidence in lawyers because they don't take enough vacation. 

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Fiona Apple
  • Lawyer
On 12/27/2021 at 11:19 AM, napqueen said:

@Fiona Apple I think what you were referring to was that the LSO has a rule that an articling student may have no more than 10 vacation days - but this does not mean that they are entitled to those 10 days

Wait, seriously? The 10 days are not actually mandated?? wtf

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Rashabon
  • Lawyer

Why would it be? It's a contractual term of employment. Now that the LSO is taking up the idea of minimum wages for articling, maybe that would be more reasonable to expect. But they generally don't get involved in the minutiae of the employment relationship between principal and articling student.

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napqueen
  • Law Student

I’m not sure why @Rashabon thinks it’s crazy to assume articling students would be entitled to vacation time as it is an entitlement under the ESA - as is a lot of contractual terms of employment - but they are right. Unfortunately, articling students fall under an exempted group of people (which also include doctors and accountants) so things like vacation time and minimum wage minimums don’t apply - although perhaps some of that will change if the LSO decides to mandate a minimum wage. See this article for a good summary: https://www.oba.org/Sections/Young-Lawyers-Division/Articles/Articles-2019/April-2019/Young-Lawyers-and-Articling-Students-as-Employees

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Rashabon
  • Lawyer

... I think it's odd to assume for the reasons you note - articling students are exempted. I think that's a pretty straightforward reason why?

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Fiona Apple
  • Lawyer
On 12/31/2021 at 1:42 PM, Rashabon said:

... I think it's odd to assume for the reasons you note - articling students are exempted. I think that's a pretty straightforward reason why?

I know that they exempted from the ESA but it's definitely not unreasonable to assume that the LSO should care about protecting students from potentially exploitative articling arrangements.

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BlockedQuebecois
  • Lawyer
59 minutes ago, Fiona Apple said:

I know that they exempted from the ESA but it's definitely not unreasonable to assume that the LSO should care about protecting students from potentially exploitative articling arrangements.

Ah, but thinking the LSO would care about protecting students from potentially exploitative articling arrangements is definitely unreasonable! 

Edited by BlockedQuebecois
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Rashabon
  • Lawyer
2 hours ago, Fiona Apple said:

I know that they exempted from the ESA but it's definitely not unreasonable to assume that the LSO should care about protecting students from potentially exploitative articling arrangements.

Sure, but I think articling for free is a lot more of an issue than not getting paid vacation time. The LSO hasn't shown they care much about the nature of articling arrangements.

I'm sure a smaller firm lawyer will point out (as they do when it comes to the "articling for free" debate) that mandating vacation time would lead them to not take on students.

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