How to Appeal to a Corporate Law Firm

[TangoMango]

Hello all!

I may have an interview for a corporate firm. I have a very social justice oriented background. Does anyone have any tips on preparing and appealing to the firm? Anyways I can swing my background to be a positive? 

Thanks! 

[BlockedQuebecois]

Get good grades. That's it, that's the answer. 

[TangoMango]

Welp my B average butt is probably SoL then haha. Thanks! 

[BlockedQuebecois]

I'm being a bit glib.

I see from your post history that you're a 3L student, so my quip about grades is going to be less applicable. For the OCI recruit the big players care a lot about grades—a smaller corporate firm is going to care less. 

Assuming this is a moderately sized firm, here's my advice: firms are increasingly investing in EDI initiatives and you can definitely try to leverage those experiences to show you're a well rounded applicant who will bring a good perspective to the firm. What you want to do is craft a cover letter that shows (or in your case, go to the interview prepared to show): (i) you actually want to work in that environment; (ii) you've gained transferable skills through your social justice work that you can leverage in your new workplace; and (iii) you're a socially conscious person who will contribute to a well rounded, diverse workplace. 

None of that is particularly groundbreaking. My general advice to everyone is to convince the firm you want to work there, show off your transferable skills, and prove you're not a boring person. But it's my general advice because it's good advice, and it applies equally when you're applying with a social justice background as when you're applying with a finance background.

[chaboywb]

Do you have a reason for wanting to go into corporate law other than money? It's fine if not, because that's what a job is for at the end of the day! But really think about your motivations and then use those to craft your story.

[TangoMango]

Thanks! I'll work on really honing into what corporate law looks like and how my skills may be applicable. 

9 minutes ago, chaboywb said:

Do you have a reason for wanting to go into corporate law other than money? It's fine if not, because that's what a job is for at the end of the day! But really think about your motivations and then use those to craft your story.

Motivation wise, I'm super nervous about finding an articling job. I'm not entirely sure what corporate law even entails, I think that might be why I'm not entirely sure how to appeal to them. I'll definitely be doing some serious research into the firm and more broadly corporate law so I can have a better idea. Thanks both of you! 

[easttowest]

22 minutes ago, TangoMango said:

Thanks! I'll work on really honing into what corporate law looks like and how my skills may be applicable. 

Motivation wise, I'm super nervous about finding an articling job. I'm not entirely sure what corporate law even entails, I think that might be why I'm not entirely sure how to appeal to them. I'll definitely be doing some serious research into the firm and more broadly corporate law so I can have a better idea. Thanks both of you! 

There is an interesting discussion of corporate law vs litigation in the civil litigation lateralling thread. Could give you a sense or at least something to talk about. 

[boyo]

It's definitely more about genuine interest (and proving you have that interest) in corporate work as opposed to grades. I had a B+ average and got hired at a firm that supposedly was notorious for only hiring straight As.

[Rashabon]

There's no corporate firm notorious for only hiring straight As though, and I can't disagree more. Grades matter the most in getting work a Bay Street corporate firm. If you're talking a smaller boutique, maybe a genuine interest matters. But it's not all that important to have a genuine interest in corporate law work as a student to get hired at one.

[boyo]

On 1/1/2022 at 2:30 PM, Rashabon said:

There's no corporate firm notorious for only hiring straight As though, and I can't disagree more. Grades matter the most in getting work a Bay Street corporate firm. If you're talking a smaller boutique, maybe a genuine interest matters. But it's not all that important to have a genuine interest in corporate law work as a student to get hired at one.

It certainly was not a small boutique. I don't know what else to say other than my grades were not the primary reason for me getting hired. I had more Bs than As when I got hired (and not B+s).

[Rashabon]

1 hour ago, boyo said:

It certainly was not a small boutique. I don't know what else to say other than my grades were not the primary reason for me getting hired. I had more Bs than As when I got hired (and not B+s).

It's never the "primary" reason people get hired, because firms interview people for fit and what not. But you don't regularly get in the door with a B- average because you showed a "genuine interest" in corporate law, however that can be demonstrated, unless you have an extremely useful background (beyond just being keen). Grades are what get people's feet in the door during the formal recruits. A B+ average with some As sprinkled around is more than sufficient to do so.

[boyo]

6 hours ago, Rashabon said:

It's never the "primary" reason people get hired, because firms interview people for fit and what not. But you don't regularly get in the door with a B- average because you showed a "genuine interest" in corporate law, however that can be demonstrated, unless you have an extremely useful background (beyond just being keen). Grades are what get people's feet in the door during the formal recruits. A B+ average with some As sprinkled around is more than sufficient to do so.

I agree with this, but I don't agree that "grades matter the most." If anything, they seem to be tied with interest (or at least an ability to show interest, whether real or not) in my experience and what I've seen with friends. There's too much variation between firms and recruiters, anyway.

[BlockedQuebecois]

9 minutes ago, boyo said:

I agree with this, but I don't agree that "grades matter the most." If anything, they seem to be tied with interest (or at least an ability to show interest, whether real or not) in my experience and what I've seen with friends. There's too much variation between firms and recruiters, anyway.

If you think about this for a few seconds, you will realize it is obviously wrong. 

Students with A averages and no demonstrated (or actual) interest in corporate law get hired by big law firms every year during OCIs. Students with C averages and a demonstrated interest in corporate law generally do not get OCIs from big law firms, let alone hired. It's clearly the case that grades matter more than demonstrated interest in corporate law. 

[Rashabon]

33 minutes ago, boyo said:

I agree with this, but I don't agree that "grades matter the most." If anything, they seem to be tied with interest (or at least an ability to show interest, whether real or not) in my experience and what I've seen with friends. There's too much variation between firms and recruiters, anyway.

I mean I've actually worked at one of these firms for a long time and I can tell you that as BQ notes, the B/C average students who swear they want to work on Bay aren't the target of any of these firms. I don't see how you think they can be "tied with interest" when you've got four paragraphs of a short cover letter to communicate interest and the applications have already been sorted by grades by then.

[boyo]

4 hours ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

If you think about this for a few seconds, you will realize it is obviously wrong. 

Students with A averages and no demonstrated (or actual) interest in corporate law get hired by big law firms every year during OCIs. Students with C averages and a demonstrated interest in corporate law generally do not get OCIs from big law firms, let alone hired. It's clearly the case that grades matter more than demonstrated interest in corporate law. 

3 hours ago, Rashabon said:

I mean I've actually worked at one of these firms for a long time and I can tell you that as BQ notes, the B/C average students who swear they want to work on Bay aren't the target of any of these firms. I don't see how you think they can be "tied with interest" when you've got four paragraphs of a short cover letter to communicate interest and the applications have already been sorted by grades by then.

Maybe it's been a while since you've been through the recruitment process? It's possible things have changed. Sure, not every B/C average gets in the door, but the ones that do and can show a genuine interest in the interview are likely to fair well, which is why I say it's at least as important to have that interest if your a B student. I'm not saying A students need to have that interest, they'll be fine.

If somebody asks if grades matter most, you can't just say yes. It depends on their situation.

[Rashabon]

If you're at the interview stage your grades have already got you in the door. That's the point. You can't just enthusiastically cover letter your way into an OCI with shitty grades. Nobody denies that once you're at the interview, grades aren't as relevant - that's the consensus view already, because your grades already unlocked the door. The interview and fit and personality is what gets you through it.

But no, I can say that grades matter most because C students aren't getting many if any OCI type interviews, no matter how gung-ho and enthusiastic they fake being about an area of law they don't understand and have never seen.

[boyo]

3 minutes ago, Rashabon said:

If you're at the interview stage your grades have already got you in the door. That's the point. You can't just enthusiastically cover letter your way into an OCI with shitty grades. Nobody denies that once you're at the interview, grades aren't as relevant - that's the consensus view already, because your grades already unlocked the door. The interview and fit and personality is what gets you through it.

But no, I can say that grades matter most because C students aren't getting many if any OCI type interviews, no matter how gung-ho and enthusiastic they fake being about an area of law they don't understand and have never seen.

It's very odd that you so strongly believe only grades get somebody in the door to the interview. Unless that's not what you're saying, but it seems like it is.

I know a combination of my ECs during law school, work experience prior to law school (not a career, just an internship), and course selection were really strong factors that got me into interviews. I know this because I actively asked recruiters about it during in-firms.

[Darth Vader]

49 minutes ago, boyo said:

It's very odd that you so strongly believe only grades get somebody in the door to the interview. Unless that's not what you're saying, but it seems like it is.

I know a combination of my ECs during law school, work experience prior to law school (not a career, just an internship), and course selection were really strong factors that got me into interviews. I know this because I actively asked recruiters about it during in-firms.

If true, this sounds kind of like bullshit from the recruiters. What kind of substantive ECs does one even do in first year law school? Most first years get involved in the same types of clinics, moots, and student clubs. Most of the good ECs like full-time clinics go to upper year students. Most law students stack their 2L course selection with the typical business courses (these courses have the largest enrollment numbers). I know many students that had nothing but business ECs and course selection in law school that did not get many interviews and did not land OCI jobs.Their grades were average or poor.

Your prior degree may play a role if you went to a top business school or STEM program and have a professional designation like CPA, CFA, engineer, master's/PhD, etc. and good work experience. Advanced STEM degrees paired with average grades can get you into the IP firms. The employment firms may like the HR/Labour Relations + Master's in Industrial Relations combinations. These are soft factors that can help your application and mitigate having lower grades. However, ultimately, it is your first year law school grades which determine how many interviews you get and the quality of interviews you get. 

The law school you attend may also play a factor. The Bay Street firms dig a little deeper into some of the JD/MBA classes and at U of T and Osgoode. If you attend one of these schools, then your perspective may be skewed a bit. 

Edited January 29, 2022 by Darth Vader
Also, you had a B+ average which is pretty strong for OCIs. You performed better than at least half your class.

[boyo]

19 minutes ago, Darth Vader said:

If you attend one of these schools, then your perspective may be skewed a bit. 

Sorta proves my point that there are factors beyond grades that matter, doesn't it?

 

19 minutes ago, Darth Vader said:

If true, this sounds kind of like bullshit from the recruiters

A little weird for recruiters to bs about this when they have zero incentive to do so. And I know my own grades, they were not stellar, and it's why I asked why they were interested in me.

 

I get that what I am saying is not the majority of cases - overall good grades are gonna help you tremendously. But I'm just trying to get across that not so great grades can be saved. For those with those not so great grades that are interested in Bay, just throw the hail mary, its worked for people plenty of times.

Edited January 29, 2022 by boyo

[Darth Vader]

12 minutes ago, boyo said:

Sorta proves my point that there are factors beyond grades that matter, doesn't it?

A little weird for recruiters to bs about this when they have zero incentive to do so. And I know my own grades, they were not stellar, and it's why I asked why they were interested in me.

I get that what I am saying is not the majority of cases - overall good grades are gonna help you tremendously. But I'm just trying to get across that not so great grades can be saved. For those with those not so great grades that are interested in Bay, just throw the hail mary, its worked for people plenty of times.

If the Bay Street firms only hired A students, they would not be able to fill their spots. I know a number of top performers that opted out of the recruit because they were not interested in working at Bay Street firms, so not every A student is aiming for the same jobs. Your B+ average is quite good for OCIs. I think you're operating under this misconception that you need A's to be competitive for OCIs. You might need A's in the 1L recruit but the 2L recruit has hundreds of spots to fill and a B+ average is considered fairly competitive. Even a firm like Davies would not fill their spots with only A average students. Heck, you don't even need an A average for MAG Constitutional Branch which is harder to get into than most Bay Street firms.  

I get what you are trying to say though. You should certainly apply to OCIs even if you have mediocre grades, but realistically the number of OCIs you get is correlated to your law school grades unless there are other factors working in your favour (some of the things I mentioned above). 

[Rashabon]

24 minutes ago, boyo said:

Sorta proves my point that there are factors beyond grades that matter, doesn't it?

 

A little weird for recruiters to bs about this when they have zero incentive to do so. And I know my own grades, they were not stellar, and it's why I asked why they were interested in me.

 

I get that what I am saying is not the majority of cases - overall good grades are gonna help you tremendously. But I'm just trying to get across that not so great grades can be saved. For those with those not so great grades that are interested in Bay, just throw the hail mary, its worked for people plenty of times.

If you had said that, I don't think anyone would have disagreed that in certain cases mediocre grades can be balanced out by a more well rounded application. I don't think demonstrating a "genuine interest" and "proving" such an interest is one of those factors, nor is it "more" about that than grades, especially since you're not getting an opportunity to show that interest if all you have is desperate keenness.

None of us would counsel a student with a B- average not to bother. They just shouldn't get their hopes too high. 

[anonanon]

On 1/1/2022 at 2:30 PM, Rashabon said:

There's no corporate firm notorious for only hiring straight As though, and I can't disagree more. Grades matter the most in getting work a Bay Street corporate firm. If you're talking a smaller boutique, maybe a genuine interest matters. But it's not all that important to have a genuine interest in corporate law work as a student to get hired at one.

Gotta love blanket statements that are stated as fact. There is at least one firm that is "notorious" for only hiring straight As: Davies. There are also some law firms that are viewed as being more grades-focused than others. However, just because a firm is "notorious" for something doesn't mean it's true - the rumour mill isn't fact.

Frankly, it's pretty weird to act as though you're the authority on the views and opinions of others, especially when you're blatantly wrong.

[BlockedQuebecois]

It seems weird to pick a fight with a ten month old post on the basis that it was wrong to say no firms are notorious for only hiring straight A students because one firm is falsely rumoured to only hire straight A students. 

Edited October 12, 2022 by BlockedQuebecois

[frankconners]

3 hours ago, anonanon said:

Gotta love blanket statements that are stated as fact. There is at least one firm that is "notorious" for only hiring straight As: Davies. There are also some law firms that are viewed as being more grades-focused than others. However, just because a firm is "notorious" for something doesn't mean it's true - the rumour mill isn't fact.

Frankly, it's pretty weird to act as though you're the authority on the views and opinions of others, especially when you're blatantly wrong.

Simply not true.