Does level of prestige in university really matter when it comes to a career in law?

[CleanHands]

UofT can get away with it because they have the highest admission standards in the country and everyone knows it. So employers are going to be more tolerant of vague ballpark grading systems because there was quality control on the admissions side of things so the students will look good on paper and probably not be duds.

The inability to distinguish between strong and middling students helps the latter group at UofT (which is why UofT does this) but would harm the former group at somewhat less reputable schools.

[QMT20]

32 minutes ago, QueensGrad said:

As a comparison, Queen's Law traditionally only sends 1 clerk to ONCA every year - usually a medalist. The ONCA judges definitely prefer grads from U of T, McGill, and Oz. 

To qualify this though, Queen's usually does better at the FCA and we've gotten between 2-4 at the SCC since I started following in 2018. 

[Admin of Justice]

To some degree, yes; but there are much more important factors than prestige.

As someone mentioned above, the quasi-Pass-Fail system at UoT means that lower-scoring students there can ride more on the school's reputation instead of on their grades. And as someone else mentioned above, the stats are clear that some Ontario schools get more Ontario clerkships than others. 

However, in Canada, law school is still law school. UoT notwithstanding, the best grades and the best networking skills get the best opportunities. This is true regardless of where you go to school. Overall, what matters infinitely more is what you do there.

In my experience, the only people arguing otherwise in the Canadian market are those who need to justify their higher debt with the higher prestige of their school. And again, due to the greater important of other factors, prestige probably isn't worth the money anyway.

Congrats and good luck!

 

 

[CleanHands]

8 minutes ago, Admin of Justice said:

In my experience, the only people arguing otherwise in the Canadian market are those who need to justify their higher debt with the higher prestige of their school. And again, due to the greater important of other factors, prestige probably isn't worth the money anyway.

There's virtually no correlation between "prestige" and tuition cost for schools in Canada. UBC and McGill have much lower tuition than pretty much all of the "lowest ranked" law schools in Canada.

[GGrievous]

12 minutes ago, Admin of Justice said:

the best grades and the best networking skills get the best opportunities. This is true regardless of where you go to school

A student from Oz posted on Twitter that they landed a clerkship with a C+ average. It’s a single case and not necessarily representative of anything but is in line with the info in this thread. 

[QueensGrad]

31 minutes ago, Barry said:

A student from Oz posted on Twitter that they landed a clerkship with a C+ average. It’s a single case and not necessarily representative of anything but is in line with the info in this thread. 

As a litigator, I certainly hope a C+ student is not doing legal research for and/or ghost writing any decisions for my cases. 

[GGrievous]

3 minutes ago, QueensGrad said:

As a litigator, I certainly hope a C+ student is not doing legal research for and/or ghost writing any decisions for my cases. 

Don’t look at me I didn’t hire them!

[BlockedQuebecois]

@Barry Considering a C+ average would put that student in the bottom 10% or so of their class, I think you should probably take that with a grain of salt. 

[GGrievous]

4 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

@Barry Considering a C+ average would put that student in the bottom 10% or so of their class, I think you should probably take that with a grain of salt. 

I don’t see why they would lie so publicly on Twitter so I tend to prefer to believe them, but I mean I don’t have confirmation so they could be lying I guess. But yes anything read online should obviously be taken with a grain of salt. 

Edited January 6, 2022 by Barry

[BlockedQuebecois]

Ah, I now see it’s Ms Andrews. I see why you called her an Osgoode student rather than identifying her, considering her whole account tends to inspire disbelief:

 

[GGrievous]

Well I called her an Oz student because that was one of the schools mentioned where opportunities remain open with lower GPA performance. I wasn’t intentionally not identifying her. She could be exaggerating how low her GPA is but I doubt she would lie about getting a clerkship. Maybe I just don't know as much about her as you do. I'm really hoping you're not dismissing her because of what she does though. 

Edited January 7, 2022 by Barry

[Arrowtotheny]

Out of curiosity, given there are only moderate differences among Canadian law schools with regard to admission stats and education quality, what are the reasons for big law/clerkships to considerably favor students from more prestigious schools? 

Is it just a matter of institutional norm and a sprinkle of elitism? Or are there actually meaningful differences among graduates in terms of their, well, lawyering ability? 

[BlockedQuebecois]

35 minutes ago, Arrowtotheny said:

Out of curiosity, given there are only moderate differences among Canadian law schools with regard to admission stats and education quality, what are the reasons for big law/clerkships to considerably favor students from more prestigious schools? 

Is it just a matter of institutional norm and a sprinkle of elitism? Or are there actually meaningful differences among graduates in terms of their, well, lawyering ability? 

 

Your “given” is not given. U of T’s median LSAT is a 168 (96.6th percentile) and it’s median GPA is a 3.88. Windsor’s are so low that they don’t even publish them. Even Queens says a 3.7 L2 and 157 (67th percentile) are competitive for their general category. That’s a massive swing. 

Edit: I mixed up my generic purple “A” avatars. Apologies @Arrowtotheny

Edited January 7, 2022 by BlockedQuebecois

[123]

On 1/5/2022 at 3:38 PM, Arrowtotheny said:

I also have little interest in big law at the moment (applied for law schools with almost the exclusive desire to do social work or related jobs).

In short, I am unsure if I need the additional opportunities UofT would unlock for me. It seems to me that if I just go to Uvic and grind, I will be able to do exactly what I want to do. However, I do wish to land a clerkship.

I also didn't want to do big law and would have liked to have done a clerkship. But I think U of T is not worthwhile for anyone who is debt-financing their degree and is interested in any area of social justice law. Those are dream-squashing levels of debt. I know they have that assistance program. But I would've been terrified of taking any path that didn't offer the highest levels of earnings and stability, if I owed six-figures. 

On clerkships, despite having really good undergrad grades and a pretty good LSAT, I turned out to be a mediocre law student.  I think I'm an outlier in that sense. But still. I would have probably been out of the running for most appellate clerkships at U of T and I'd have a lot more debt. Going to U of T to clerk seems like a pricey gamble, if your other interests aren't that lucrative. 

[Kurrika]

Uvic is a gajillion times cheaper than toronto.

[Electricity]

3 hours ago, Barry said:

A student from Oz posted on Twitter that they landed a clerkship with a C+ average. It’s a single case and not necessarily representative of anything but is in line with the info in this thread. 

This is all the Cryptozoologist needs to mount his comeback and finally be vindicated!

 

[Deadpool]

@Arrowtotheny — what do you want to do within the social justice field? That is the first question you need to ask yourself. Do you want to practice a certain area of law, like criminal or immigration? Do you want to work in government? Non-profit? Legal aid? Travel the world and help out the downtrodden in developing countries? if you want to do any of these, then you are looking at anywhere from 50-100k out of law school -- maybe even less than 50k if you are a sole practitioner or in a law adjacent position in the public interest field. 

Clerkships are nice but they do not make up for real world experience if you want to work in social justice. From all my experiences working within the government and legal aid systems, I have not met many lawyers in these fields that did clerkships. A lot of former clerks end up in academia and private practice/litigation boutiques. If this is what you want to do, then absolutely prioritize clerkships. But if your main goal is to practice law in a social justice setting and get real world experience, then you should prioritize clinical programs and experiential education, and getting summer and articling positions with public interest employers. You should prioritize networking with the community partners, organizations, and non-profit groups in the region you want to work in.

You need to figure out what a social justice career looks like for you; why you want to go into it; whether you are fine with taking a significant pay cut and feeling overworked and underappreciated all the time; and if you can handle working with unsophisticated, marginalized clients all day long. A lot of people going into law school think they can deal with the hard realities of poverty law practice, until they get experience working at a clinic or begin schmoozing with sophisticated law firms and rich clientele. 

U of T does not have any special premium on poverty law/social justice work over other Canadian law schools. If they did, the tuition would be a lot cheaper than the ~35k/year it is now and U of T would have more clinical programs. U of T certainly would not get into a scandal over the hiring of a director for its International Human Rights Program. That is not to say that U of T is the wrong choice for a career in poverty law and social justice. I work with many U of T grads. However, most of them come from wealthy backgrounds and have partners in lucrative careers that help support them financially. So, think through this decision, balance all the factors that matter to you, and make the best decision for yourself. 

As for the main discussion in this thread regarding school prestige, like anything else, it depends. It depends on what you actually want to do with your legal education, what kind of career you want to pursue, and whether your future goals requires you to attend a more prestigious school to maximize your chances of getting there. It also depends on how you think you will perform in your class, but this is something that no one can predict before law school unless they have experience writing law school exams (which some people coming from lawyer families might). 

The two main things that universally seem to matter are 1) costs and 2) opportunities. If the school you are interested in has clinics and experiential programs, is affordable, and provides you with access to clerkships, big law, government, whatever else you want to do, then you can rest assured that you have been given yourself a fighting chance of making it happen. Sure, you may have to perform higher in your class at one school than another for the same opportunity, but the chance is there regardless. There are no guarantees in life, so make the best of any opportunities you are given. After your first job, most employers do not care about school name and law school grades anymore (though employers in private practice look at your transcripts up until your 5th year of call). Being a few years out of law school, I can tell you that I do not know a single person that graduated from a Canadian law school that is struggling right now in the job market. So things seem to work out one way or another for most people. 

[Arrowtotheny]

17 minutes ago, Deadpool said:

You need to figure out what a social justice career looks like for you; why you want to go into it; whether you are fine with taking a significant pay cut and feeling overworked and underappreciated all the time; and if you can handle working with unsophisticated, marginalized clients all day long. A lot of people going into law school think they can deal with the hard realities of poverty law practice, until they get experience working at a clinic or begin schmoozing with sophisticated law firms and rich clientele. 

Thank you for your comprehensive response. I certainly have a lot of self-reflection and research to do. And it is honestly frustrating to make such a big decision given how little I know about the reality of practicing law. 

[Electricity]

3 hours ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

U of T’s median LSAT is a 168 (96.6th percentile) and it’s median GPA is a 3.88. Windsor’s are so low that they don’t even publish them. Even Queens says a 3.7 L2 and 157 (67th percentile) are competitive for their general category. That’s a massive swing. 

I agree with your larger point re: the admissions range in Canada, but for this specific example you've compared UofT's median LSAT to the minimum LSAT required at Queen's. You need "at least" a 157 to be competitive, but the median in the last few years has been 161. Percentile wise that's a considerable jump from 67th.

I'm really only quibbling here though, @Arrowtotheny. Admissions stats vary significantly from school to school. 

[BlockedQuebecois]

6 hours ago, Electricity said:

I agree with your larger point re: the admissions range in Canada, but for this specific example you've compared UofT's median LSAT to the minimum LSAT required at Queen's. You need "at least" a 157 to be competitive, but the median in the last few years has been 161. Percentile wise that's a considerable jump from 67th.

I'm really only quibbling here though, @Arrowtotheny. Admissions stats vary significantly from school to school. 

Ah, thank you. I couldn't easily surface Queens' medians from their website.

To put this into perspective, though, it's worth considering how many students fill that gap. There are about 7,200 Canadian LSAT takers each year, of which only ~316 get an LSAT over 168. In contrast, ~1260 get an LSAT over 161. So to really oversimplify it, the median U of T student is about the 316th best LSAT taker in the country, whereas the median Queens student is about the 1260th best LSAT taker in the country. 

Obviously the LSAT isn't everything, but I think those numbers demonstrate fairly well how big the gap can be.