Being a lawyer is very very hard - discuss.

[BCLaw2021]

As this forum may be accessed by future aspiring lawyers and law students, it is important to be honest about the fact that being a lawyer is "very very hard" for a variety of reasons.

Many of those reasons are not brought to the forefront by the provincial law societies, the law schools, or practitioners themselves. 

For this reason, I have created this topic for lawyers who have experienced any financial hardships, psychological issues, workplace toxicity, unreasonable demands, or any other problems to share their experiences so that new students have a better sense of what it is really like in this profession.

Hopefully, this discussion can lead to a more open and honest discussion about what the profession is really like and as a consequence the future buyers of legal education can be more informed when deciding to pursue this career. 

Edited June 14, 2021 by BCLaw2021

[Diplock]

Although I think a discussion of what it's like to practice law is always in order here, I'm suspicious of any discussion started by someone with no history here, premised on the claim that even practitioners of law can't be trusted to discuss the topic honestly. I also question what kind of good faith conversation of what things are "really like" starts from predetermining a conclusion, and that anyone who isn't in agreement with that conclusion is part of the general conspiracy to suppress the truth.

So, have whatever kind of conversation you want. But I really think you have to pick either (a) a discussion that's solely about things that are hard in the profession, and bad things that happen to people in it, or (b) a discussion that's "open and honest" and about what things are "really like" as you have suggested. If it's the first, that's fine, but don't pretend you've gotten at the hidden truth by inviting only a specific set of experiences. And if it's the second, don't scream and yell as soon as someone's open and honest experiences don't line up with what you want to hear.

Also, just to throw in a personal gripe, you really don't need to start a thread with the observation that this form may be accessed by future aspiring lawyers and law students, and that's why it's appropriate to discuss the reality of the profession. As if, you know, that hadn't occurred to anyone else before, or that we're actually all just hanging around trying to screw with people. Your observations - founded in however much real experience you do or don't have (which is unclear to me right now, but whatever) - are valid, but so are mine and so are anyone else's. Whatever else you may agree or disagree with here, showing up like you're the only one even trying to be honest is inherently offensive and starts the conversation very much on the wrong foot.

Edited June 14, 2021 by Diplock

[efrefgg]

8 minutes ago, Diplock said:

As if, you know, that hadn't occurred to anyone else before, or that we're actually all just hanging around trying to screw with people.

That's exactly what a hanging screwer would say!

[BCLaw2021]

6 hours ago, Diplock said:

Although I think a discussion of what it's like to practice law is always in order here, I'm suspicious of any discussion started by someone with no history here, premised on the claim that even practitioners of law can't be trusted to discuss the topic honestly. I also question what kind of good faith conversation of what things are "really like" starts from predetermining a conclusion, and that anyone who isn't in agreement with that conclusion is part of the general conspiracy to suppress the truth.

So, have whatever kind of conversation you want. But I really think you have to pick either (a) a discussion that's solely about things that are hard in the profession, and bad things that happen to people in it, or (b) a discussion that's "open and honest" and about what things are "really like" as you have suggested. If it's the first, that's fine, but don't pretend you've gotten at the hidden truth by inviting only a specific set of experiences. And if it's the second, don't scream and yell as soon as someone's open and honest experiences don't line up with what you want to hear.

Also, just to throw in a personal gripe, you really don't need to start a thread with the observation that this form may be accessed by future aspiring lawyers and law students, and that's why it's appropriate to discuss the reality of the profession. As if, you know, that hadn't occurred to anyone else before, or that we're actually all just hanging around trying to screw with people. Your observations - founded in however much real experience you do or don't have (which is unclear to me right now, but whatever) - are valid, but so are mine and so are anyone else's. Whatever else you may agree or disagree with here, showing up like you're the only one even trying to be honest is inherently offensive and starts the conversation very much on the wrong foot.

Your interpretation of my phrase "really like" seems to be confined within your understanding of my "premised conclusion", perhaps within those issues I mentioned in that paragraph.

However, if you read my phrase "really like" in context of my entire post, then you will understand that those issues I mentioned within that paragraph are part of my statement - and you argue that it is in fact my premise - that being a lawyer is "very very hard". 

As to your comment that I have concluded I am the only person that is open and honest, you will see that it is not the case when you re-read the post and realize I am encouraging a "more" open and honest discussion. "More" modifies open and honest. You can even interpret my statement - if you are so inclined - that the discussion about the profession is already open and honest, but that I am merely encouraging more of these open and honest discussions. 

Thanks.

[Jaggers]

Is it really a fact that being a lawyer is "very very hard"? Certainly some people have a hard time. It's a profession where people depend on you, the standards can be exacting, and the stakes can be high if you mess up. It is objectively more of a challenge than my job before law school, but I feel that my education and training has equipped me pretty well for it, and it pays me quite a bit more than my pre-law school career path would at this point.

I've done my time on Bay St, and I have worked for several years in two very different in house jobs. I wouldn't go back to the job I did before law school, even though it was easier.

All of those things you listed exist in the legal profession - financial hardships, psychological issues, workplace toxicity, unreasonable demands. Other than financial hardship, I've seen them all in my career. But I'm not sure you could avoid those by not going into law, as they exist everywhere.

[Gamgee]

19 minutes ago, BCLaw2021 said:

Your interpretation of my phrase "really like" seems to be confined within your understanding of my "premised conclusion", perhaps within those issues I mentioned in that paragraph.

However, if you read my phrase "really like" in context of my entire post, then you will understand that those issues I mentioned within that paragraph are part of my statement - and you argue that it is in fact my premise - that being a lawyer is "very very hard". 

As to your comment that I have concluded I am the only person that is open and honest, you will see that it is not the case when you re-read the post and realize I am encouraging a "more" open and honest discussion. "More" modifies open and honest. You can even interpret my statement - if you are so inclined - that the discussion about the profession is already open and honest, but that I am merely encouraging more of these open and honest discussions. 

Thanks.

I wasn’t sure about adding back the confused emoji before, but this would be a great literal use of that react. 

[KOMODO]

I find being a lawyer tiring, but not very hard. Certainly not any harder than comparable alternatives. However, I may not be your target audience for this question, because:

1. Short of inventing something really useful like post-it notes, my job pays me more than any other job would - any "financial hardships" I might have experienced effectively ended when I started working [note, I still grumble about the cost of housing and daycare, but I definitely wouldn't be able to afford those things if I wasn't a lawyer]
2. Any psychological issues I might have aren't related to my work;
3. My workplace isn't toxic, it's supportive and while the demands are intense, everyone gets along; and
4. The more experience I get, the better equipped I am to guide partners and clients away from any unreasonable demands they might have.

So yeah, the hours are long and sometimes that's a bummer, but...it's not harder or more toxic than working retail. There are fewer unreasonable demands than when I was waitressing. It pays really well for being a desk job where I just get to read and then give my opinion on things. What's the alternative?

[ZineZ]

I've been debating whether or not to respond on this topic. I think I'm going to do so just because of the fact that this forum is accessed by a number of applicants and students - and I don't want to leave a feeling that we're unaware of issues/unwilling to provide support for those who need it. 

OP - as has already been mentioned, your question is flawed in its premise. I understand that you may not have meant to do so, but you've essentially come to this forum and started your post with an assertion that lawyers, law societies and law schools are unwilling/hesitant to discuss issues related to mental health/ financial hardships/workplace toxicity/unreasonable demands. There are a few issues:

• 1) The number of questions you've asked above does not really lead to a great discussion - instead it's asking us to give a laundry list of complaints against the profession as a whole. Many of us have not experienced each of the issues mentioned above, and suggesting that it's a blanket problem for every professional is problematic.  The old ls.ca no longer exists, but you would have found a myriad of posts where discussions around mental health/financial hardships/difficult workplaces did happen - largely when someone came with a specific issue that required answers. These conversations are often more organic and you will see them continue as the forum grows.  
• 2) The legal profession is not blind or unwilling to have these conversations as a whole. That may have been the case fifteen years ago - but there has been a greater focus on wellness as a whole over the past while. It feels like we've had a shift - and law societies are openly trying to provide additional support. There are additional studies being done, law societies provide some services and a number of alumni and senior lawyers have stepped up in either their own workplaces or through the Members Assistance Program. The same exists with regards to law schools. Again, I don't mean to make it look like the profession is perfect (bluntly, it's really not). But neither is it unaware or unwilling to face some of the more harsh realities that may exist for a number of lawyers.

The reality here is that being a lawyer can be hard, but there's no immediate correlation. Like with any comparable profession, everyone's experiences are different and there is no set path. I have had some terrible days since starting my legal career, and some excellent ones. The two workplaces I have joined since starting my articles have been, hands down, the most supportive I have ever experienced. 

That being said, I am not trying in any way to discourage people from asking question as needed on this forum. One of the reasons I got involved with moderation is because I want to ensure that places do exist that people can turn to when they need guidance. If you ever have specific concerns or want more tailored advice (how to seek help/how to handle a difficult boss/financial advice), please don't hesitate to ask.

[GGrievous]

As long as it's not very very very hard. 

[Mountebank]

I'm with @KOMODO. Law isn't very hard so much as it is a grind. The hardest thing about it is having to go in every day and just do the work over and over again. It's tiring, but not very hard.

[MOL]

The law is not hard, or the actual legal work, isn't. It can be challenging, interesting, frustrating, require you to think something through but not hard.

The practice of law can be very very hard.

I also think I deserve Koodos for leaving the whole very very hard thing alone...wait, that didn't come out right....I meant no stupid immature.....fuck it.......

[JuliusPepperwood]

I’m a long time reader of ls.ca but a first time contributor. Thanks for setting up this new forum. 
 

While I can’t comprehend a post that would address the breadth of this topic, FWIW I would add that those lawyers who place unreasonable expectations on themselves and perhaps may have anxious tendencies (which may, e.g., compel them to read that case or email just one more time) often do quite well in the practice of law professionally (at least in the early stages), but often at a personal expense.

As a result, for some people (myself included) the practice of law ends up being significantly harder than it needs to be. 

I’ve found that some of the lawyers I look up to most are those who take their jobs seriously but do not place unreasonable expectations upon themselves. They create balance, boundaries and habits which help them have a fulfilling and long-term career that does not significantly impair their personal lives.

The times I’ve spoken up at my firm to set a boundary, it has always been respected and both my work product and personal life benefit from maintaining a reasonable workload. 

[Jaggers]

3 minutes ago, JuliusPepperwood said:

While I can’t comprehend a post that would address the breadth of this topic, FWIW I would add that those lawyers who place unreasonable expectations on themselves and perhaps may have anxious tendencies (which may, e.g., compel them to read that case or email just one more time) often do quite well in the practice of law professionally (at least in the early stages), but often at a personal expense.

This is what I was trying to get at when I wrote that "people depend on you, the standards can be exacting, and the stakes can be high if you mess up". When all of that is true, and it's compounded when you're learning the ropes, it can be very hard to say "I've done enough. I'm ready for this." Whether it's a pleading, research, speaking notes for an oral submission, a factum, or whatever, you can always think of *just one more thing* that might improve it, or give your client a better shot. Or maybe you can't think of anything, so you'd better read it over one more time, just in case!

Learning when you've put in the optimum amount of time on something, to the point where you've done a good job, where you're ready to go even if maybe there could be something else to do to meet a standard of perfection, and then letting go, is the hard thing about being a lawyer.