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Full-time Job + Part-time 1L, and more.


RC51

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Hello Friends,

I hope you are all doing well and enjoying your holidays, I certainly am. I recently received an acceptance to law school, and it has made my dream of working in law become more of a reality, and the thought process behind life during law school has also been tempered by more realistic considerations.

My personal desire for the time I will spend in law school is for me to continue working at a full-time government job, while attending law school on a part-time basis. And this is based on  my personal experience of working-full time or near full-time while studying during undergrad. It was difficult, but I really enjoyed having a fully packed schedule with work, study, workouts, and occasional hangouts with friends. Now that I am only working a full-time job doing about 45-50 hours a week, I actually find myself a little bit bored in the down time.  

After law school, I would like to lateral into a government legal or legal adjacent position. Now, I know this is possible, as many others have done law school part-time, and I would love to hear your experience. Furthermore, what about 2L, and 3L? I read that it is much easier to manage ones time as a senior law student, and pick courses more advantages to balancing time with work, is that the case? Also, in my opinion, doing full-time work throughout the entirety of law school has its trade-offs, mainly being that I will not have any summer experiences in real-life legal work, but just how big of a trade-off is that if I am working full-time, I am not so sure I can quantify as an outsider, if you could offer your opinion I would greatly appreciate it. 

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BlockedQuebecois
  • Lawyer

Law schools don’t usually let you attend part time simply because you want to, so perhaps you should check whether they will even let you before you ask about the pros and cons of doing so?

I also think doing law school part time is a terrible idea, absent extenuating circumstances (of which wanting to keep working a full time job is not one).

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7 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

Law schools don’t usually let you attend part time simply because you want to, so perhaps you should check whether they will even let you before you ask about the pros and cons of doing so?

I also think doing law school part time is a terrible idea, absent extenuating circumstances (of which wanting to keep working a full time job is not one).

Thanks. I know the schools can be rigid in granting part-time, but I have my own reasons that I am not stating here, also why is it a terrible idea? In the U.S. Fordham, Georgetown are both top law school programs with dedicated part-time programs that produce top legal professionals. Their programs are at night, so its not the same here, but its still part-time nonetheless. 

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BlockedQuebecois
  • Lawyer

The point of going to law school is to become a lawyer. If you're doing law school part time, you're going to inevitably miss out on things that would make you a better lawyer—participating in moots, working at clinics, and getting summer jobs, amongst other things. Law school is something you should commit fully to unless there's a compelling reason you actually can't, which is why Canadian law schools rarely let students attend part time. 

Your plan to "lateral" into a government position after law school is also fairly unlikely to work. As a starting point, you'll need to article. The vast majority of government articling positions are snapped up by those who worked at government offices during their 2L summer. If you can't commit to working somewhere your 2L summer, you're likely to be articling at a smaller shop in an area that is at best adjacent to any government gigs. Government gigs are also highly competitive and difficult to get if you're outside the system, so if that's your end goal you'll be shooting yourself in the foot by not summering and articling there. 

I'm not sure what Fordham and Georgetown have to do with anything, but my point is not that students who complete law school part time can't be successful. It's that it's generally going to be a lot easier if you just commit to attending law school full time. 

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TheDevilIKnow
  • Articling Student

I agree with Blocked that this does not sound like a good idea. But part of the problem is that you are explicitly choosing not to share the details of your situation that make you think this is a good idea, so... how exactly can we respond to that?

30 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

Your plan to "lateral" into a government position after law school is also fairly unlikely to work.

Amplifying this. Your current position in government does not mean you can "lateral" into government legal work. As Blocked mentioned, the positions are extremely competitive. Speaking from extensive and recent personal experience, your application to the government recruits will be completely along the normal process. You will not formally be given any preference, although obviously you may have some soft advantages in having a résumé and references that suggest you share government "values", or whatever.

Choosing to forgo practical legal learning and summer work experiences does not seem like a great strategy to get where you want to go (if you can even get a school to allow you to do 1L part time, which I haven't heard of in Canada).

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OP, sounds to me like you're trying to keep all options open well past when that's really tenable. You are going to have to pick: law, or your current career?

Other than that observation, I agree with the above posters. First, might not even be possible. Second, you can't expect us to opine on your decision if you aren't going to share all the facts. This thread won't be able to go anywhere until you confirm the first and loosen up on the second - your choice.

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Goblin King
  • Law Student

Not to derail the thread, but I ran into a bit of financial trouble in the last 6 or so months and decided it would be best to attend law school part-time starting next semester. I'm really concerned about the impacts on my career prospects. My intention is to get everything sorted, do my 1L courses over 2 years, and then return to a full course load, graduating in 4 years. I'm doing well in the two assignment based courses I've received grades for (A+ and A averages respectively), but I'm guessing even if this trend holds for the  exam course that's still part of my schedule now that I'm part time, I wouldn't be able to find a 1L position this year.  It's not the end of the world because I got a position doing 20 hours a week with my old job and can probably find a full time position with them in the summer. Do you guys have any advice on finding summer employment in "2L"  and mitigating the impact? 

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AMG
  • Law Student
1 hour ago, Goblin King said:

Do you guys have any advice on finding summer employment in "2L"  and mitigating the impact?

I’d suggest looking at previous forums and ask your question again under the Jobs sections. Probably would get more responses to it there

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4 hours ago, Goblin King said:

Not to derail the thread, but I ran into a bit of financial trouble in the last 6 or so months and decided it would be best to attend law school part-time starting next semester. I'm really concerned about the impacts on my career prospects. My intention is to get everything sorted, do my 1L courses over 2 years, and then return to a full course load, graduating in 4 years. I'm doing well in the two assignment based courses I've received grades for (A+ and A averages respectively), but I'm guessing even if this trend holds for the  exam course that's still part of my schedule now that I'm part time, I wouldn't be able to find a 1L position this year.  It's not the end of the world because I got a position doing 20 hours a week with my old job and can probably find a full time position with them in the summer. Do you guys have any advice on finding summer employment in "2L"  and mitigating the impact? 

Have you thought about reaching out to your school’s Career Development Office (or its equivalent where you are)? They might also be in a good position to advise you.

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Pantalaimon
  • Lawyer
23 hours ago, Goblin King said:

My intention is to get everything sorted, do my 1L courses over 2 years, and then return to a full course load, graduating in 4 years.

Assuming your school lets you do this*, I think you're fine for formal recruits because the definition of student is based on expected year of articling. E.g., in Ontario for 2022 summer recruitment:

Quote

“first year student” means a law student who reasonably expects to be eligible to commence articling in the 2024-2025 Licensing Cycle or later. 

So by my reading you would be on track for typical recruits, e.g. what you called your "2L" summer would be your 1L summer.

*this is a big if. For example, UCalgary explicitly states that financial/work considerations are not sufficient to warrant admission to the part-time JD absent other extenuating circumstances. Similar to OP, you may want to discuss with the school before you invest too much brainpower into a decision tree that may be rendered moot.

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Goblin King
  • Law Student
On 12/30/2021 at 5:13 PM, Pantalaimon said:

Assuming your school lets you do this*, I think you're fine for formal recruits because the definition of student is based on expected year of articling. E.g., in Ontario for 2022 summer recruitment:

So by my reading you would be on track for typical recruits, e.g. what you called your "2L" summer would be your 1L summer.

*this is a big if. For example, UCalgary explicitly states that financial/work considerations are not sufficient to warrant admission to the part-time JD absent other extenuating circumstances. Similar to OP, you may want to discuss with the school before you invest too much brainpower into a decision tree that may be rendered moot.

Thanks! I've been discussing it with them for the last few weeks and got permission to go part time in early December. Dal seems to be very lenient with their part time program. 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 12/29/2021 at 3:14 PM, BlockedQuebecois said:

The point of going to law school is to become a lawyer. If you're doing law school part time, you're going to inevitably miss out on things that would make you a better lawyer—participating in moots, working at clinics, and getting summer jobs, amongst other things. Law school is something you should commit fully to unless there's a compelling reason you actually can't, which is why Canadian law schools rarely let students attend part time. 

Your plan to "lateral" into a government position after law school is also fairly unlikely to work. As a starting point, you'll need to article. The vast majority of government articling positions are snapped up by those who worked at government offices during their 2L summer. If you can't commit to working somewhere your 2L summer, you're likely to be articling at a smaller shop in an area that is at best adjacent to any government gigs. Government gigs are also highly competitive and difficult to get if you're outside the system, so if that's your end goal you'll be shooting yourself in the foot by not summering and articling there. 

I'm not sure what Fordham and Georgetown have to do with anything, but my point is not that students who complete law school part time can't be successful. It's that it's generally going to be a lot easier if you just commit to attending law school full time. 

I can also say that law student miss out on life experience and work experience by not working during law school that will make them better lawyers. I mentioned Fordham and Georgetown because you had said part-time law school is a terrible idea, yet in a different but very similar system, part-time lawyer excel and are noted to be successful because of their work experience gained prior to and during law school.

Furthermore, what are the chances that a law intern that will do substantial work at a law firm? Many students get placed on admin duty, I would rather a guaranteed chance to doing more meaningful work at a full-time job, other than a name plate that they worked at a law firm. 

Edited by RC51
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Rashabon
  • Lawyer
6 minutes ago, RC51 said:

I can also say that law student miss out on life experience and work experience by not working during law school that will make them better lawyers. I mentioned Fordham and Georgetown because you had said part-time law school is a terrible idea, yet in a different but very similar system, part-time lawyer excel and are noted to be successful because of their work experience gained prior to and during law school.

Furthermore, what are the chances that a law intern that will do substantial work at a law firm? Many students get placed on admin duty, I would rather a guaranteed chance to doing more meaningful work at a full-time job, other than a name plate that they worked at a law firm. 

BQ is not talking about working at a law firm prior to starting law school. He is talking about working for a law firm or government job as a second year summer student, which is how many desirable articling gigs are landed. Working at a full-time, non-law job will 100% make for a much more difficult time finding a good articling position and ultimately a legal job.

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CleanHands
  • Lawyer
11 minutes ago, RC51 said:

Furthermore, what are the chances that a law intern that will do substantial work at a law firm? Many students get placed on admin duty, I would rather a guaranteed chance to doing more meaningful work at a full-time job, other than a name plate that they worked at a law firm. 

I fell in love with the law because the work I did during my 1L summer job and even the volunteering I did in literally my first month of law school was more "meaningful" than any work I had been entrusted with before I stepped through the doors of my law school.

YMMV I guess, but your assumption that full-time law students don't get to do anything substantial is wrong.

P.S. I don't even know what you mean by "law intern," but I'm sort of guessing that's on you rather than me.

Edited by CleanHands
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On 12/29/2021 at 3:49 PM, TheDevilIKnow said:

I agree with Blocked that this does not sound like a good idea. But part of the problem is that you are explicitly choosing not to share the details of your situation that make you think this is a good idea, so... how exactly can we respond to that?

Amplifying this. Your current position in government does not mean you can "lateral" into government legal work. As Blocked mentioned, the positions are extremely competitive. Speaking from extensive and recent personal experience, your application to the government recruits will be completely along the normal process. You will not formally be given any preference, although obviously you may have some soft advantages in having a résumé and references that suggest you share government "values", or whatever.

Choosing to forgo practical legal learning and summer work experiences does not seem like a great strategy to get where you want to go (if you can even get a school to allow you to do 1L part time, which I haven't heard of in Canada).

Like every Torontonian, I have a million dollar mortgage, loans, and bills that need to be paid every month, I am a little bit older than the average applicant so the considerations are a bit different. I hope you can relate to this. I've heard alot of people tell me you should've never bought a house, or why don't you sell your house etc, I just feel like they aren't really thinking in a nuanced way. Like sometimes its a person's only chance to own a home, especially in Toronto. If I had waited longer, or went to law school while I rented, I might have never had the chance to buy a property. 

Anyways, there are many part time options in Canada, please do your research. 

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7 minutes ago, CleanHands said:

I feel in love with the law because the work I did during my 1L summer job and even the volunteering I did in literally my first month of law school was more "meaningful" than any work I had been entrusted with before I stepped through the doors of my law school.

YMMV I guess, but your assumption that full-time law students don't get to do anything substantial is wrong.

P.S. I don't even know what you mean by "law intern," but I'm sort of guessing that's on you rather than me.

I did not assume full-time law students don't do anything substantial. 

My apologies, I should've said law school summer student. 

8 minutes ago, Rashabon said:

BQ is not talking about working at a law firm prior to starting law school. He is talking about working for a law firm or government job as a second year summer student, which is how many desirable articling gigs are landed. Working at a full-time, non-law job will 100% make for a much more difficult time finding a good articling position and ultimately a legal job.

Why does it make for a 100% more difficult time finding a good articling position? A hiring manger sees someone with 10 years of professional experiences working in a related field to the specific practice and the same law degree, and lets say a KJD with 3 summer internships and 8 month of law summer experience, can you explain why they would hire the KJD. 

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CleanHands
  • Lawyer
2 minutes ago, RC51 said:

I did not assume full-time law students don't do anything substantial. 

My apologies, I should've said law school summer student. 

I realize you're trying to be polite so I don't want to be rude in response. Don't take it that way, but...I honestly don't know what you're referring to.

Full-time law students get (full-time) jobs as summer students with firms in 2L and (if they are really lucky) 1L. If "law school summer student" means something else to you, I don't know what that would be.

4 minutes ago, RC51 said:

Why does it make for a 100% more difficult time finding a good articling position? A hiring manger sees someone with 10 years of professional experiences and the same law degree, and lets say a KJD with 5 summer internship experiences, can you explain why they would hire the KJD. 

Because there are formal recruits structed in particular ways based on the schedules of full-time JD students. There is a reason basically everyone here who has actually been to law school agrees that being a part-timer would make getting hired in competitive positions more difficult.

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Pantalaimon
  • Lawyer
4 minutes ago, RC51 said:

Why does it make for a 100% more difficult time finding a good articling position? A hiring manger sees someone with 10 years of professional experiences working in a related field to the specific practice and the same law degree, and lets say a KJD with 3 summer internships and 8 month of law summer experience, can you explain why they would hire the KJD. 

I think you're overselling the benefits of a previous career. Being young and moldable has a lot of advantages and some firms prefer it that way. Articling and junioring is also very time consuming, and all else being equal someone younger is less likely to push back on demands like all nighters and all-weekend work. There may also be concerns about ego - will this person be able to take instructions from a 26 year old associate?

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2 minutes ago, CleanHands said:

I realize you're trying to be polite so I don't want to be rude in response. Don't take it that way, but...I honestly don't know what you're referring to.

Full-time law students get (full-time) jobs as summer students with firms in 2L and (if they are really lucky) 1L. If "law school summer student" means something else to you, I don't know what that would be.

Because there are formal recruits structed in particular ways based on the schedules of full-time JD students. There is a reason basically everyone here who has actually been to law school agrees that being a part-timer would make getting hired in competitive positions more difficult.

My definition of a full-time job is a permanent job, not one that goes from April to September. Maybe you are working full-time hours, but I don't consider it a full-time job because you have to leave in August. 

On your second point, can we agree that there is a survivorship bias here? So far it seems like its everyone whose been to law school full time saying being part-time would make it difficult for competitive position. I don't doubt your experience and opinion, are there people that did go to law school part-time and worked full-time, and worked at full-filling, meaingful, well paid jobs after law school? I don't know, but if there are I would like to know. 

5 minutes ago, Pantalaimon said:

I think you're overselling the benefits of a previous career. Being young and moldable has a lot of advantages and some firms prefer it that way. Articling and junioring is also very time consuming, and all else being equal someone younger is less likely to push back on demands like all nighters and all-weekend work. There may also be concerns about ego - will this person be able to take instructions from a 26 year old associate?

Well I am not young, and I only have the benefits of a career that I can argue for. So not sure what to say there.

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CleanHands
  • Lawyer
6 minutes ago, RC51 said:

My definition of a full-time job is a permanent job, not one that goes from April to September. Maybe you are working full-time hours, but I don't consider it a full-time job because you have to leave in August. 

Okay well, then my initial disagreement with you clearly stands and I'm not sure what your response to it meant.

6 minutes ago, RC51 said:

On your second point, can we agree that there is a survivorship bias here? 

No, we can't.

6 minutes ago, RC51 said:

are there people that did go to law school part-time and worked full-time, and worked at full-filling, meaingful, well paid jobs after law school? I don't know, but if there are I would like to know. 

I am absolutely sure that there are. Nobody claimed otherwise.

It is still significantly more difficult to pursue a good legal career as a part-time student than a full-time one.

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Rashabon
  • Lawyer
20 minutes ago, RC51 said:

Why does it make for a 100% more difficult time finding a good articling position? A hiring manger sees someone with 10 years of professional experiences working in a related field to the specific practice and the same law degree, and lets say a KJD with 3 summer internships and 8 month of law summer experience, can you explain why they would hire the KJD. 

Because that's how they structure the recruits. Also your professional experience isn't all that useful in the long run. You have the same (or in your example, far less) legal experience than a KJD that got a job through the formal recruit.

You want a government legal job and that's fine and dandy, but for illustrative reasons, I'll focus on corporate, big law jobs. The majority of those articling positions are given to summer students. You would be unlikely to be hired at one of those in the articling recruit. There are government agencies that hire summer students, and if they hire articling students, my guess is that they tend to prioritize students that worked for them in the summers. I have no clue since I don't pay much attention to the outcomes of the government recruit.

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22 minutes ago, CleanHands said:

Okay well, then my initial disagreement with you clearly stands and I'm not sure what your response to it meant.

No, we can't.

I am absolutely sure that there are. Nobody claimed otherwise.

It is still significantly more difficult to pursue a good legal career as a part-time student than a full-time one.

Well you can disagree, but the fact is you don't know what it was like to be a part-time law student while working a full time job. In fact it might be significantly easier if one was to work with law firm partners and socialize as business associates.

18 minutes ago, Rashabon said:

Because that's how they structure the recruits. Also your professional experience isn't all that useful in the long run. You have the same (or in your example, far less) legal experience than a KJD that got a job through the formal recruit.

You want a government legal job and that's fine and dandy, but for illustrative reasons, I'll focus on corporate, big law jobs. The majority of those articling positions are given to summer students. You would be unlikely to be hired at one of those in the articling recruit. There are government agencies that hire summer students, and if they hire articling students, my guess is that they tend to prioritize students that worked for them in the summers. I have no clue since I don't pay much attention to the outcomes of the government recruit.

Thanks, the formal recruit aspect is a point that I did consider, but I can see how being outside of the traditional channel would exclude me. I think working full-time by splitting 1L into two years, and going back to full-time schooling in 2L and 3L might be the more advantageous position in the long run. 

Edited by RC51
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1 hour ago, RC51 said:

Why does it make for a 100% more difficult time finding a good articling position? A hiring manger sees someone with 10 years of professional experiences working in a related field to the specific practice and the same law degree, and lets say a KJD with 3 summer internships and 8 month of law summer experience, can you explain why they would hire the KJD. 

I’m not a hiring manager at a government agency. I’m at a small firm/SP, but my perspective is not unusual outside the formal recruits.  

I almost exclusively care about relevant legal experience. My student needs to be able to draft letters, affidavits, and submissions. They need to be able to interview (often pretty difficult) clients. They need to be able manage a file. I want to know that they’ll be able to do that before I hire them. The only way to know, is to see if they have the experience. That’s the experience I look for — doing legal work, preferably in my area of practice. I wouldn’t hire someone who doesn’t have it. 

Law students get the kind of experience I look for by doing  clinics and other extracurriculars. There’s almost no way that they’d have time to do that work during law school if they’re already employed for 50 hours per week. And even if they found a way, I’d be skeptical that they did the clinical stuff well. 

Unless your last job was overseas lawyer, licensed paralegal, or some sort of regulated consultant, then your non-practicing, law adjacent position wouldn’t compensate for a lack of relevant clinical experience. Transferable skills aren’t a substitute for demonstrated interest and ability in the thing I actually do. And so if the K-JD has better clinical experience than you, then I hire the K-JD over you. I’m not spending tens of thousands of dollars and screwing around with clients’ rights to hire a student who hasn’t proven themselves willing or able to do what I need. 

Edited by realpseudonym
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30 minutes ago, realpseudonym said:

I’m not a hiring manager at a government agency. I’m at a small firm/SP, but my perspective is not unusual outside the formal recruits.  

I almost exclusively care about relevant legal experience. My student needs to be able to draft letters, affidavits, and submissions. They need to be able to interview (often pretty difficult) clients. They need to be able manage a file. I want to know that they’ll be able to do that before I hire them. The only way to know, is to see if they have the experience. That’s the experience I look for — doing legal work, preferably in my area of practice. I wouldn’t hire someone who doesn’t have it. 

Law students get the kind of experience I look for by doing  clinics and other extracurriculars. There’s almost no way that they’d have time to do that work during law school if they’re already employed for 50 hours per week. And even if they found a way, I’d be skeptical that they did the clinical stuff well. 

Unless your last job was overseas lawyer, licensed paralegal, or some sort of regulated consultant, then your non-practicing, law adjacent position wouldn’t compensate for a lack of relevant experience. Transferable skills aren’t a substitute for demonstrated interest and ability in the thing I actually do. And so if the K-JD has more clinical experience than you, then I hire the K-JD over you. I’m not spending tens of thousands of dollars and screwing around with clients’ rights to hire a student who hasn’t proven themselves willing or able to do what I need. 

Thank you.

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