Queens vs Osgoode

[jakebrigance99]

Osgoode was my top choice but I was wait listed. I have accepted Queens, I am wondering what the perceived difference is between the two. I don't want to go into anything corporate related- most likely criminal or something adjacent. 

What is the general attitude towards Queens vs Osgoode? 

Thanks very much in advance. 

[pinball]

There's basically no difference in "reputation" between Queen's and Osgoode amongst employers (or Western for that matter). All three schools are good law schools and employers will treat a B student from Osgoode the same as a B student from Queen's. Good students from both schools will have opportunities to get jobs in criminal or something adjacent.

So how do you choose between the two schools? There are some factors that may sway you one way or another:

1. Is it going to cost more for you to go to school in Toronto, or outside of Toronto? Are you receiving scholarships/bursaries from one school but not the other? Less student debt, the better.

2. Do you prefer the benefits of going to a larger school (more course selection, more Toronto-based practitioners teaching at the school), or a smaller school (more personalized admin support, more close-knit student body)?

[jakebrigance99]

5 minutes ago, pinball said:

There's basically no difference in "reputation" between Queen's and Osgoode amongst employers (or Western for that matter). All three schools are good law schools and employers will treat a B student from Osgoode the same as a B student from Queen's. Good students from both schools will have opportunities to get jobs in criminal or something adjacent.

So how do you choose between the two schools? There are some factors that may sway you one way or another:

1. Is it going to cost more for you to go to school in Toronto, or outside of Toronto? Are you receiving scholarships/bursaries from one school but not the other? Less student debt, the better.

2. Do you prefer the benefits of going to a larger school (more course selection, more Toronto-based practitioners teaching at the school), or a smaller school (more personalized admin support, more close-knit student body)?

Great, that is what I was hoping and have generally heard. 

Sadly I would love to be choosing between the two, as of yet I am wait listed at Osgoode. I think if the choice came up I'd pick Osgoode in a second because I live in the GTA and wouldn't have to move away. But alas, here I am, feverishly searching for a Queens apartment but not wanting to pay for it yet just in case. Limbo. 

[Parker]

0L so take this with a grain of salt, but Queen's has some really good criminal based outreach programs (as a school with different clubs) and clinics (Prison law Clinic which I'm pretty sure is unique to Queen's) as Kingston has a lot of penitentiaries. From my understanding, I think Osgoode is considered a better school (or a more competitive one at least) but the difference in reputation doesn't seem to be that huge and is largely negligible when compared to other factors like specific area of interests, costs of the different programs and which location is more convenient to you. 

Edited June 14, 2021 by Parker

[Avatar Aang]

Most criminal lawyers are sole practitioners or work in small firm settings made up of fewer than 10 lawyers, so it does not matter what school you go to. Criminal law is also so widely practiced and pursued by many law students that every law school has a healthy selection of courses and opportunities in this area. You can go to Windsor or Lakehead and be a criminal lawyer easily. 

Regarding your question, it is absolutely false to say that the reputation of Queen's and Osgoode are equal. Very few people turn down Osgoode to go to Queen's, Western, Windsor, Ottawa, etc., and the ones that do, usually do so for non-academic reasons such as location, finances, and school atmosphere. That being said, Queen's is just fine for criminal law.

[Disbarred]

25 minutes ago, Avatar Aang said:

Most criminal lawyers are sole practitioners or work in small firm settings made up of fewer than 10 lawyers, so it does not matter what school you go to. Criminal law is also so widely practiced and pursued by many law students that every law school has a healthy selection of courses and opportunities in this area. You can go to Windsor or Lakehead and be a criminal lawyer easily. 

Regarding your question, it is absolutely false to say that the reputation of Queen's and Osgoode are equal. Very few people turn down Osgoode to go to Queen's, Western, Windsor, Ottawa, etc., and the ones that do, usually do so for non-academic reasons such as location, finances, and school atmosphere. That being said, Queen's is just fine for criminal law.

I have to agree with this. Although the schools are certainly close, the vast majority of students who get into Osgoode, western, and queens choose Osgoode. Many of the students from Western and Queens who tell you to go there would have chosen Osgoode if they got in 

 

 

Edited June 14, 2021 by Disbarred

[pinball]

5 minutes ago, Disbarred said:

I have to agree with this. Although the schools are certainly close, the vast majority of students who get into Osgoode, western, and queens choose Osgoode. Many of the students from Western and Queens who tell you to go there would have chosen Osgoode if they got in 

 

 

Fair enough. Perhaps amongst law school applicants, there is a big preference for Osgoode over other Ontario schools.

My post was clearly about reputation amongst employers though. I was heavily involved in the 2021 formal student recruitment process as an interviewer, and my firm did not give any preference to Osgoode applicants over Queen's or Western's. But who knows, you might come across firms that prefers Osgoode applicants - I only know what goes on at one firm after all.

[LMP]

4 hours ago, jakebrigance99 said:

Osgoode was my top choice but I was wait listed. I have accepted Queens, I am wondering what the perceived difference is between the two. I don't want to go into anything corporate related- most likely criminal or something adjacent. 

What is the general attitude towards Queens vs Osgoode? 

Thanks very much in advance. 

Go to Queens for crim. Queens clinics match Osgoodes in that area, possibly even exceeds them. Moreover Queens is cheaper and rent in Kingston is slightly better, both important factors if you intend to practice in lower paying discipline. 

As for reputation, I'll defer to @pinball who obviously has more knowledge. Osgoode seems to do slightly better in OCIs but given your interests that's hardly relevant.

Moreover this isn't really much a choice at the moment. You've gotten into the one school and you haven't gotten into the other. If you are debating leaving the Queens offer on the table in hopes of Osgoode, certainly don't do that. Queens is a very strong school especially given your particularl goals and interests. 

[Stacci]

Just to lend another perspective, I was accepted at both UofT, Osgoode, and Western, and declined for Queen's. While I certainly felt a preference among applicants towards Osgoode, I was fortunate to have parents who worked in the legal profession (and one as a criminal lawyer) helping me choose. One went to Osgoode and the other Queen's. At the time, I was wanting to pursue criminal law. They both pushed me pretty hard towards Queen's. Working as lawyers, neither held Osgoode above Queen's in terms of quality of education except for potentially creating Toronto contacts.

 

Edited June 14, 2021 by Stacci

[QMT20]

4 hours ago, jakebrigance99 said:

Osgoode was my top choice but I was wait listed. I have accepted Queens, I am wondering what the perceived difference is between the two. I don't want to go into anything corporate related- most likely criminal or something adjacent. 

What is the general attitude towards Queens vs Osgoode? 

Thanks very much in advance. 

I went to Queen's. Had I been accepted into Osgoode as an applicant, I would have gone to Osgoode. Even if most employers today don't regard there to be a difference between Queen's and Osgoode, there are still opportunities that are more abundant at Osgoode than at Queen's and Western. For example, if you want to clerk, ONCA usually only hires 1 clerk per year from Queen's and Western. This year we had 2 and there was one year where Western had 2 as well, but otherwise in the last 10 years, it was 1 student per year from Queen's and 1 from Western. In contrast, Osgoode regularly placed 3 or more clerks at ONCA per year. I know this is an example that only affects a very small minority of students at any school but it still represents an opportunity that's more readily available to Osgoode students than Queen's/Western and it likely reflects a perceived difference amongst top candidates from each school. 

That said, if you're set on going into criminal law, I'd echo the sentiments already expressed above about considering the costs of each school. Students articling in criminal law firms are not going to be making close to six-figures coming out of law school. If money is any issue to you, I'd recommend you consider Osgoode if you can commute from home and Queen's if you can't. If you have a scholarship from Queen's or if you get one from Osgoode then take that into account as well. Osgoode's higher tuition and paying rent in Toronto (even outside the downtown core) is going to hurt more than turning them down for Queen's. I know plenty of people at Queen's who landed Crown jobs, and jobs at top criminal law boutiques like Greenspan Humphrey in my class. 

You can also check out the work done by the Prison Law Clinic at Queen's, and profiles from some of the new hires in criminal law such as Lisa Kerr, Lisa Kelly, Benjamin Ewing, and Noah Weisbord.  You can compare what the work done by the Prison Law clinic and the research from those professors with clinical opportunities and criminal law professors from Osgoode to see which align better with your interests. All of them hire student RAs and these would contribute to your experience  pursuing criminal law as well. 

Edited June 14, 2021 by QMT20
Added more about criminal law opportunities at Queen's

[Vizslaw]

3 hours ago, Avatar Aang said:

Most criminal lawyers are sole practitioners or work in small firm settings made up of fewer than 10 lawyers, so it does not matter what school you go to. Criminal law is also so widely practiced and pursued by many law students that every law school has a healthy selection of courses and opportunities in this area. You can go to Windsor or Lakehead and be a criminal lawyer easily. 

Regarding your question, it is absolutely false to say that the reputation of Queen's and Osgoode are equal. Very few people turn down Osgoode to go to Queen's, Western, Windsor, Ottawa, etc., and the ones that do, usually do so for non-academic reasons such as location, finances, and school atmosphere. That being said, Queen's is just fine for criminal law.

Ouch the Windsor bashing continues.

I do agree, however, that most criminal defence firms care less about what school you went to and more about your practical experience, course selection and grades, placements/intensives, clerkships, etc.

[ZineZ]

Keep in mind that Osgoode also has a number of criminal law related programs. The legal clinic on campus (CLASP) allows for you to manage files and represent persons for a year, the Crim Law Intensive is great and the Innocence Project is quite well reputed.

Both will treat you just fine for criminal law. But don't choose a school because of a single program. Look at it more holistically. There is a huge chance that your interests will change during law school - it happened to many of us. 

Ultra Vires does a great article every year about what people wanted to do when they entered law school vs what they do now. As some point, I may throw it up as a discussion question in OT. It would be a fun one.

http://ultravires.ca/2019/03/personal-statements-from-the-class-of-2019/

[Avatar Aang]

49 minutes ago, Vizslaw said:

Ouch the Windsor bashing continues.

I do agree, however, that most criminal defence firms care less about what school you went to and more about your practical experience, course selection and grades, placements/intensives, clerkships, etc.

Where is the bashing? It isn't news to anyone that Windsor is a lower ranked law school than most of the other Ontario schools. Employers and law students are privy to this information and hiring processes and clerkship placements reflect this as well.

I mentioned Windsor and Lakehead to illustrate the fact that where you go for criminal law doesn't matter, like it matters for some other fields. OP could attend a lower ranked school and still achieve similar results in this field as the U of T and Osgoode students pursuing criminal law. The main exceptions would be for litigation boutiques with white-collar criminal practices that may favour some schools over others, and the Department of Justice and Public Prosecution of Canada which seem to hire more students from Ottawa. 

[historicaladvantage]

8 hours ago, jakebrigance99 said:

Osgoode was my top choice but I was wait listed. I have accepted Queens, I am wondering what the perceived difference is between the two. I don't want to go into anything corporate related- most likely criminal or something adjacent. 

What is the general attitude towards Queens vs Osgoode? 

Thanks very much in advance. 

In terms of employers, there's not much of a difference. Osgoode carries a little bit more prestige, and presents more opportunities coming out of the gates, but overall both are viewed very strongly by employers. I don't anticipate a strong student from Queen's would have big issues finding employment, all other things being equal to a strong student at Osgoode. 

All schools will allow you to practice in all areas of law. The law school you go to really doesn't impact the kind of law you choose to practice very much...

If we're talking what schools are known for, though, Queens has an exceptional reputation when it comes to criminal law; they have excellent professors and an excellent criminal law course offering. They are known as "the" criminal law school. With that being said over the last few years they've definitely started to shift a bit more towards corporate--but rest assured Queens is an extremely good school for crim. 

Western would be known as the Corporate school; Osgoode would be known as the "Social Justice" school, but it's very mixed and has a very strong corporate and criminal law offering and student body; U of T is good for everything but has a corporate leaning, etc. Hope this helps. 

[jcfm]

22 hours ago, Disbarred said:

I have to agree with this. Although the schools are certainly close, the vast majority of students who get into Osgoode, western, and queens choose Osgoode. Many of the students from Western and Queens who tell you to go there would have chosen Osgoode if they got in 

 

 

Absolutely spot on. Preference falsification. Osgoode is somewhat prestigious than Western and Queens, notwithstanding the fact that the quality of education you'd receive at all three is equivalent. But prestige does have some signaling value. With that said, I think the prestige of Osgoode has been waning over the years, if Western/Queens is substantially cheaper for you, or you think you'd be much happier going to school there (with a non-commuter feel), then I think it's quite justifiable to choose Queens/Western over Osgoode. 

[historicaladvantage]

1 hour ago, jcfm said:

Absolutely spot on. Preference falsification. Osgoode is somewhat prestigious than Western and Queens, notwithstanding the fact that the quality of education you'd receive at all three is equivalent. But prestige does have some signaling value. With that said, I think the prestige of Osgoode has been waning over the years, if Western/Queens is substantially cheaper for you, or you think you'd be much happier going to school there (with a non-commuter feel), then I think it's quite justifiable to choose Queens/Western over Osgoode. 

I echo everything said here. Osgoode is still a bit more prestigious but hiring numbers for OCIs over the last few years have demonstrated that employers aren't differentiating much between the three (Oz is usually ahead of Western/Queens by between 2-5%). U of T is, and always has been, held in higher regard by employers in comparison to these three (can be 20%+ higher in recruitment numbers). Overall though, the VAST majority of people from all three of these schools end up with excellent jobs so OCIs don't really matter. 

Edited June 15, 2021 by historicaladvantage

[Vizslaw]

On 6/14/2021 at 7:00 PM, Avatar Aang said:

Where is the bashing? It isn't news to anyone that Windsor is a lower ranked law school than most of the other Ontario schools. Employers and law students are privy to this information and hiring processes and clerkship placements reflect this as well.

I mentioned Windsor and Lakehead to illustrate the fact that where you go for criminal law doesn't matter, like it matters for some other fields. OP could attend a lower ranked school and still achieve similar results in this field as the U of T and Osgoode students pursuing criminal law. The main exceptions would be for litigation boutiques with white-collar criminal practices that may favour some schools over others, and the Department of Justice and Public Prosecution of Canada which seem to hire more students from Ottawa. 

I disagree that criminal boutiques/employers and the hiring process, whatever that is, reflect your bias or some preference for these rankings. Your point that even Windsor grads can practice in criminal law seemed unnecessary if your general thesis was that school rankings are irrelevant to criminal law because anyone can enter that area of law, competency aside.

If your assessment of the better school is based on which secured more clerkships or criminal OCIs, you are going to get a skewed perspective. Everyone goes nuts about U of T versus the world because they only seem to care about getting OCIs. In that narrow context, the data about hiring statistics for those specific firms is entirely relevant. There is no comparison for criminal law because there are no seven sisters or whatever they call the big bay street firms these days. So if we are talking about what school is best for practicing criminal law, you can't isolate clerkships or OCIs. You're not discussing, at all, the strength of the faculty, intensive and clinic programs, course selection, etc. I dont think any of those strongly favour Osgoode over Queen's as you suggest. Rather, I think most would agree Queen's faculty is superior with Don Stuart. 

You also said that some boutique litigation firms may favour some schools, as in Osgoode over Queen's. Again, beyond your own experience or anecdotal evidence, I don't see how you can plausibly say that. Are you on the hiring committee or a managing partner at one of those firms? If so, consider that you may just be confirming your own bias, which is fine. Can you really say that other white-collar crime boutique litigation firms (like mine) may prefer Osgoode students? I certainly don't think so. Our own hiring data does not support your position, but I realize we are just one of many firms. We have hired more students from Queen's, Dalhousie, and yes, Windsor, than Osgoode, so there's that. 

Everyone is going to have their own opinion but OP should know that not all those in the criminal defence bar, nor the Crown's office, will necessarily share your view that Osgoode > Queen's for criminal law.    

[Avatar Aang]

2 hours ago, Vizslaw said:

I disagree that criminal boutiques/employers and the hiring process, whatever that is, reflect your bias or some preference for these rankings. Your point that even Windsor grads can practice in criminal law seemed unnecessary if your general thesis was that school rankings are irrelevant to criminal law because anyone can enter that area of law, competency aside.

If your assessment of the better school is based on which secured more clerkships or criminal OCIs, you are going to get a skewed perspective. Everyone goes nuts about U of T versus the world because they only seem to care about getting OCIs. In that narrow context, the data about hiring statistics for those specific firms is entirely relevant. There is no comparison for criminal law because there are no seven sisters or whatever they call the big bay street firms these days. So if we are talking about what school is best for practicing criminal law, you can't isolate clerkships or OCIs. You're not discussing, at all, the strength of the faculty, intensive and clinic programs, course selection, etc. I dont think any of those strongly favour Osgoode over Queen's as you suggest. Rather, I think most would agree Queen's faculty is superior with Don Stuart. 

You also said that some boutique litigation firms may favour some schools, as in Osgoode over Queen's. Again, beyond your own experience or anecdotal evidence, I don't see how you can plausibly say that. Are you on the hiring committee or a managing partner at one of those firms? If so, consider that you may just be confirming your own bias, which is fine. Can you really say that other white-collar crime boutique litigation firms (like mine) may prefer Osgoode students? I certainly don't think so. Our own hiring data does not support your position, but I realize we are just one of many firms. We have hired more students from Queen's, Dalhousie, and yes, Windsor, than Osgoode, so there's that. 

Everyone is going to have their own opinion but OP should know that not all those in the criminal defence bar, nor the Crown's office, will necessarily share your view that Osgoode > Queen's for criminal law.    

You didn't read my post properly. I made it clear that no one cares where you go for criminal law, and only said that "maybe" litigation boutiques care because many of them participate in the OCI process and Windsor does not have strong placement rates there. You don't see a ton of Windsor students at top litigation boutiques unless they performed at the top of their class. Please note that my post was in response to your comment that I was bashing Windsor, so I am not sure where you even got Queen's from. Nowhere did I argue that Osgoode was superior to Queen's for criminal law. That would be an incredibly stupid argument to make. I don't think Osgoode and Queen's are better criminal law schools than Windsor either. I don't care who is teaching at these schools because this matters little for employment purposes. What matters most is the clinical programs and course selection. In this regard, Windsor is perfectly fine for criminal law, and outside of Big law and OCIs, Windsor seems to do well with most hiring employers. Again, I only said that litigation boutiques "may" care where you went because of the schools they tend to hire the most students from during OCIs.

[CleanHands]

It's hard to pin down how much school choice matters for criminal law both because unlike BigLaw OCIs these things are not tracked well (although the Crown and a select few criminal defence firms do participate in formal recruits) and because not all criminal defence firms are created equal, to an extent that is nearly impossible to overstate. Ranging from dodgy shops of ill repute that are among the least desirable positions to attain articles and associate work, and firms that are literally almost exclusively staffed by medalists and SCC clerks (although in the latter case obviously going to UofT isn't going to be of any help if you are an average student).

Before contributing to the derailing, I want to emphasize that I agree with the consensus response to the OP's question that going to Osgoode vs Queen's will not likely make an appreciable difference in the criminal law opportunities available to the OP.

With that out of the way, I don't agree with the suggestion that school choice doesn't matter for criminal law (beyond the obvious debt minimization) either. My completely anecdotal observation is that while graduates of local schools are well represented at solid criminal defence firms and the Crown in their own market (which makes sense because local crim bars are small and students have opportunities to get involved, make themselves known to local lawyers and develop a reputation), graduates of certain schools with lower admission standards and perceived reputation are overrepresented in the shops that have a notably poor reputation (outside their local market). As I said I don't think data exists to support any of our positions but through my observations I don't think this is irrelevant in the crim law world.

[Vizslaw]

5 hours ago, Avatar Aang said:

You didn't read my post properly. I made it clear that no one cares where you go for criminal law, and only said that "maybe" litigation boutiques care because many of them participate in the OCI process and Windsor does not have strong placement rates there. You don't see a ton of Windsor students at top litigation boutiques unless they performed at the top of their class. Please note that my post was in response to your comment that I was bashing Windsor, so I am not sure where you even got Queen's from. Nowhere did I argue that Osgoode was superior to Queen's for criminal law. That would be an incredibly stupid argument to make. I don't think Osgoode and Queen's are better criminal law schools than Windsor either. I don't care who is teaching at these schools because this matters little for employment purposes. What matters most is the clinical programs and course selection. In this regard, Windsor is perfectly fine for criminal law, and outside of Big law and OCIs, Windsor seems to do well with most hiring employers. Again, I only said that litigation boutiques "may" care where you went because of the schools they tend to hire the most students from during OCIs.

I think I read your post just fine. I agree it would be an incredibly stupid argument to make but here is where you said that Osgoode was superior to Queen's for criminal law:

 

On 6/14/2021 at 2:32 PM, Avatar Aang said:

...

Regarding your question, it is absolutely false to say that the reputation of Queen's and Osgoode are equal. Very few people turn down Osgoode to go to Queen's, Western, Windsor, Ottawa, etc., and the ones that do, usually do so for non-academic reasons such as location, finances, and school atmosphere. That being said, Queen's is just fine for criminal law.

So, if you're now saying that you never argued that Osgoode was superior to Queen's for criminal law, your statements above are both contradictory and perplexing. Even if you didn't say the exact words "Osgoode is superior to Queen's to criminal law" you have said as much in your quote above. What inference is OP to draw when you say their reputations are not equal and that very few people turn down Osgoode to go to Queen's, when you are answering a question about how they compare for those interested in criminal law?  

Anyway, OP has some good insight from the posts above, including yours. I do think that the profs who teach at those schools are relevant. Taking one of Don Stuart's class (and getting a reference from him) is impressive and will get any criminal defence firm's attention. My view as a reasonably experienced practitioner is that Queen's has the stronger criminal law program, both in terms of course offerings and faculty, if that is what OP is truly interested in. Queen's also has the the prison law clinic, which is unique. It is true that Osgoode's intensive program in criminal law is well respected, but it can be hit or miss depending on which firm you are placed with. 

At the end of the day, it's not going to make a material difference which school OP goes to if they want to practice in criminal law or something adjacent, as they said. What matters more will be how hard they work, what they accomplish, and what relationships they forge during school and thereafter. Good luck! 

 

 

 

 

[CleanHands]

21 minutes ago, Vizslaw said:

-Snip-

Yikes dude, I think that maybe you'd a tad hypersensitive about this subject.

You selectively quoted and selectively bolded something @Avatar Aang wrote, completely ignoring the context of him responding to a comment about the reputation of the schools among employers generally (not specific to crim law) and that the exact bit you quoted ended with "Queen's is just fine for criminal law" specifically (a part of the quote you did not bold).

21 minutes ago, Vizslaw said:

I do think that the profs who teach at those schools are relevant. Taking one of Don Stuart's class (and getting a reference from him) is impressive and will get any criminal defence firm's attention.

Getting a reference, somewhat (but I believe that you are overstating things). Merely taking the class of someone well-respected and notable in the field? Useful for one's own education but absolutely not "impressive" at all.

(To be clear, I'm not disputing that Queen's is good for criminal law or talking about Stuart in particular, just commenting on the value of classes and references generally.)

Edited June 16, 2021 by CleanHands

[QueensDenning]

10 hours ago, Vizslaw said:

 

Rather, I think most would agree Queen's faculty is superior with Don Stuart. 

Don Stuart is no longer a Queen's prof. 

[Vizslaw]

@CleanHands I don't think there was anything hypersensitive about my reply. If someone tells me I didn't properly read their post, I'm going to re-read it to make sure. I stand by my comments. It's not like I wrote them in all caps or used offensive language.

I took fair issue with a point made by @Avatar Aang, which appeared to be contradictory and unsupported. I think I quoted what they said accurately. I've never been accused of selectively bolding things before lol... that is just to add emphasis. The comments were also made in the context of OP's interest in criminal law, so I didn't take that to mean we were just talking generally about school's reputations among employers for any area of law. So, I don't think I ignored any context here. 

I didn't say that merely taking a class was impressive, but rather that the profs who teach them are relevant. I said that getting a reference from specific profs (like Stuart) is impressive. I stand by that, as it is supported by my history of hiring students. 

I think we agree on more than we disagree, just my two cents.

 

[Vizslaw]

4 minutes ago, QueensDenning said:

Don Stuart is no longer a Queen's prof. 

 

I know he retired in 2018 but thought he was still doing some teaching there?

 

[Avatar Aang]

I don't want to derail this thread further but to end, I specifically used the words "That being said, Queen's is just fine for criminal law," implying that my previous comment was about the school reputations generally and not specific to criminal law. I reiterated multiple times in my posts that where you go for criminal law didn't matter. Anyways, that is all I can say on this matter. 

You got nitpicky when I mentioned Windsor and litigation boutiques, but admitted yourself that schools like U of T do better in the OCI process. Maybe we are defining litigation boutiques differently, but I am specifically referring to those firms that participate in the OCI process, and others that mainly hire appellate clerks and medalists.