Toronto Recruit/OCI Tips

[Obi-wan]

What’s one thing you wish you knew before the 2L recruit? What would you have done differently? Any tips/advice/learnings are appreciated. 

[cherrytree]

Hmm. There are a lot of things I wish I knew going into the recruit, but I think they all boil down to "it's really not that deep". Obsessively analyzing every small detail of what is said to you during interviews and gauging how much an interviewer liked you tend to just lead to more anxiety. Getting too deep in my own head made my answers sound more rambling, forced and rehearsed when they could have come across as more relaxed and self-assured. It's strange how conveying confidence becomes that much easier when you stop fixating on impressing the people on the other side and just focus on telling your stories in your own authentic voice and getting your point across.

If you realize after the fact that a mistake has been made in something you already submitted or you already said, take a deep breath, forgive yourself, learn from it, try to do better in the future.

It also never hurts to make the other person laugh. OCIs and in-firm days are long hours for the interviewers, they usually appreciate the relief that laughter brings.

[QMT20]

5 hours ago, Obi-wan said:

What’s one thing you wish you knew before the 2L recruit? What would you have done differently? Any tips/advice/learnings are appreciated. 

I think among my friends, too many people were getting attached to the idea of working for one firm or another too early in the process. Although the firms encourage an emotional connection, the recruit is ultimately a business transaction for the firm and for you. No matter how well you think your interactions with one firm are going, firms can stop replying and go cold really quickly if you're no longer a competitive candidate after they get another round of feedback. My friends who were hurt during the recruit were people who got the idea early on that they were going to work for one firm in particular, put all their eggs in that basket, and then were disappointed when they were told in the middle of in firms that they wouldn't be receiving an offer. 

Likewise, don't close any doors for yourself during the recruit. Your fifth-choice firm might end up being the one that gives you an offer at the end of in firms. Don't put their first interview on day 2 if you can find a way to squeeze them in on day 1. Don't turn down opportunities to meet with lawyers and learn more about your lower choice firms just because you think things are going well with your top choice. 

I was fortunate enough that my 2L recruit went pretty much exactly as planned but that wasn't true for many of my friends, and I think the ones who were really crushed were crushed because they took things personally, and because they had regrets about closing doors on themselves. 

Lastly, I think it helps you to show that you won't sacrifice your integrity to get a job. Sometimes during the recruit it's pretty obvious that a firm wants you to tell them they're your first choice. I told a firm they weren't my first choice and I still ended up getting an offer from that firm. The recruiter also emailed me afterwards to let me know they thought I made a mature decision to tell the truth and let them decide. Conversely, some lawyers at my firm mentioned their negative experiences with students who told them they were their first choice and then didn't accept their offer on call day. Some people care about that, and I think it's better to come out of the recruit without rubbing anyone the wrong way. 

[Obi-wan]

10 hours ago, cherrytree said:

Hmm. There are a lot of things I wish I knew going into the recruit, but I think they all boil down to "it's really not that deep". Obsessively analyzing every small detail of what is said to you during interviews and gauging how much an interviewer liked you tend to just lead to more anxiety. Getting too deep in my own head made my answers sound more rambling, forced and rehearsed when they could have come across as more relaxed and self-assured. It's strange how conveying confidence becomes that much easier when you stop fixating on impressing the people on the other side and just focus on telling your stories in your own authentic voice and getting your point across.

If you realize after the fact that a mistake has been made in something you already submitted or you already said, take a deep breath, forgive yourself, learn from it, try to do better in the future.

It also never hurts to make the other person laugh. OCIs and in-firm days are long hours for the interviewers, they usually appreciate the relief that laughter brings.

Thanks for the insight. I can appreciate the tendency to overthink the whole process. I also think that there's a fine line between rehearsing interview answers and being prepared for them - so thanks for highlighting that also. 

 

9 hours ago, QMT20 said:

I think among my friends, too many people were getting attached to the idea of working for one firm or another too early in the process. Although the firms encourage an emotional connection, the recruit is ultimately a business transaction for the firm and for you. No matter how well you think your interactions with one firm are going, firms can stop replying and go cold really quickly if you're no longer a competitive candidate after they get another round of feedback. My friends who were hurt during the recruit were people who got the idea early on that they were going to work for one firm in particular, put all their eggs in that basket, and then were disappointed when they were told in the middle of in firms that they wouldn't be receiving an offer. 

Likewise, don't close any doors for yourself during the recruit. Your fifth-choice firm might end up being the one that gives you an offer at the end of in firms. Don't put their first interview on day 2 if you can find a way to squeeze them in on day 1. Don't turn down opportunities to meet with lawyers and learn more about your lower choice firms just because you think things are going well with your top choice. 

I was fortunate enough that my 2L recruit went pretty much exactly as planned but that wasn't true for many of my friends, and I think the ones who were really crushed were crushed because they took things personally, and because they had regrets about closing doors on themselves. 

Lastly, I think it helps you to show that you won't sacrifice your integrity to get a job. Sometimes during the recruit it's pretty obvious that a firm wants you to tell them they're your first choice. I told a firm they weren't my first choice and I still ended up getting an offer from that firm. The recruiter also emailed me afterwards to let me know they thought I made a mature decision to tell the truth and let them decide. Conversely, some lawyers at my firm mentioned their negative experiences with students who told them they were their first choice and then didn't accept their offer on call day. Some people care about that, and I think it's better to come out of the recruit without rubbing anyone the wrong way. 

This is also really great advice, thanks. You've highlighted one of my biggest anxieties about this whole thing... and that is the potential for closing doors too early in the process. Also, why is it that firms want you to tell them they're your first choice? Is it just because they'd rather hire a candidate who would be more likely to be committed to them in the long-term? I feel like a conversation along those lines would just be awkward/uncomfortable - especially when that firm isn't your first choice. 

[QMT20]

2 minutes ago, Obi-wan said:

This is also really great advice, thanks. You've highlighted one of my biggest anxieties about this whole thing... and that is the potential for closing doors too early in the process. Also, why is it that firms want you to tell them they're your first choice? Is it just because they'd rather hire a candidate who would be more likely to be committed to them in the long-term? I feel like a conversation along those lines would just be awkward/uncomfortable - especially when that firm isn't your first choice. 

Firms want you to tell them they're your first choice because offers from all the firms come out at 5 PM sharp on offer day. If they call you at 5 and you don't accept, the next candidate down their list might also have accepted an offer by the time they call. This is a big issue especially for firms that only hire a couple students. 

Just spend more time doing research about the firms you're applying to up front and be generous with your time to all the firms you decide to go to in firms with, even if it makes the week more exhausting for you. Telling a firm they're your first choice isn't the only way to show interest. But if you put a firm's first interview on day 2, and then turn down their dinner invitation, they'll probably get the hint. 

[chaboywb]

I felt like I had run a marathon at the end of in-firm week, but I'm glad I did. I was speaking to someone during it who told me they were skipping a firm dinner because they were tired and were already confident that firm was going to give them an offer. It didn't. Take every opportunity because you never know. 

In addition, I thought I bombed my OCI with the firm I ended up at. Never count anything out.

[Obi-wan]

7 hours ago, QMT20 said:

Firms want you to tell them they're your first choice because offers from all the firms come out at 5 PM sharp on offer day. If they call you at 5 and you don't accept, the next candidate down their list might also have accepted an offer by the time they call. This is a big issue especially for firms that only hire a couple students. 

Just spend more time doing research about the firms you're applying to up front and be generous with your time to all the firms you decide to go to in firms with, even if it makes the week more exhausting for you. Telling a firm they're your first choice isn't the only way to show interest. But if you put a firm's first interview on day 2, and then turn down their dinner invitation, they'll probably get the hint. 

Wow call day seems..........just.....poorly structured. Thank you very much for the tips. 

 

34 minutes ago, chaboywb said:

I felt like I had run a marathon at the end of in-firm week, but I'm glad I did. I was speaking to someone during it who told me they were skipping a firm dinner because they were tired and were already confident that firm was going to give them an offer. It didn't. Take every opportunity because you never know. 

In addition, I thought I bombed my OCI with the firm I ended up at. Never count anything out.

I sounds like the general sentiment around here is to never make assumptions about how a firm feels about you. The recruitment process seems so fluid in that regard! 

[Psychometronic]

On 6/14/2021 at 3:04 PM, Obi-wan said:

What’s one thing you wish you knew before the 2L recruit? What would you have done differently? Any tips/advice/learnings are appreciated. 

It depends on what you know already. There were reams of advice on the old forum and your career office would have (presumably) told you some of the basic stuff. Allard's CSO provided us with some pretty comprehensive hand-outs and held lunchtime sessions for Q&A and so on. If your school offers similar resources, I suggest you review them.

That said, some things to know have more to do with unknowns about the recruitment process as well as the nuances of interacting with recruiters. Some of the key points are addressed above but I'd emphasize that you shouldn't take things too personally. This process can be jarring because you're applying for a job but there is also a huge interpersonal component that you may not know what to do with. For example, if you feel like you've hit it off with someone and you don't get an in-firm or offer, you might wonder if that interaction was even genuine. You may never know. They might have been nice to everyone but you were low on their list all along or you were a strong candidate that barely made the cut. Alternatively, you might feel like an interview was lackluster but you end up advancing further.

There isn't much you can do to prepare for this other than to be aware and go in with an open mind and 0 expectations. Developing emotional resilience helps but ultimately you'll be stressed, tired, and drained regardless of how things play out.

 

 

[BlushAndTheBar]

I echo the "don't count anything out" comments. Also, how the firm is during interviews is generally what you can expect when you're working, if the firm is informal and laid back in the interview, that's probably what the work environment is like. If the interviewers say questionable things during the interview, they probably say questionable things at work. This advice also ties in with the old Career Office adage "you're interviewing the firm as much as they're interviewing you". I once had a firm in the interview sell me on all the litigation experience I would get if I worked there, let's say I didn't want to do litigation work during the summer then I probably wouldn't have loved the experience as much as a die hard litigation student. In hindsight, I would have asked less basic questions during the question period.