Jump to content

Osgoode versus UBC - Criminal law


OkayLetsGo

Recommended Posts

Hi ya'll

 

Hope all is well. I've recently received admission offers from UBC and Osgoode for 1L, which were my two top choices. For York/Osgoode I am still waiting on hearing back (from the Philosophy department) about potentially enrolling in their JD/MA program. I just wanted to see if folks here had any suggestions about additional things to consider between these two schools.

As a background, I am currently interested in pursuing criminal law. While the future is open and subject to change, I currently want to have a career in legal practice though I wouldn't rule out the possibility of returning to school after some time to pursue academia. This is part of the reason why I was interested in the JD/MA program at Osgoode (though I  wonder, 'what is the rush in getting both?').

I'm aware that both schools have criminal law clinics (or at Osgoode, an 'intensive'), though I am not sure if there is a significant difference in the quality or opportunities offered by each. If anyone here has experience with either clinics, I would love to hear.

Other things I am thinking about are cost (Osgoode is quite a bit more expensive) and distance from family (my immediate family is in BC and it would be nice to be closer, though I would say this isn't the ultimate decider).

Something I know I am unfamiliar with are perhaps about the job prospects/markets for criminal law in Vancouver and Toronto respectively.

If there is anything else that you think should factor into the decision, feel free to let me know. Thank you in advance for reading.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for taking the time to type that out, CleanHands. Its helpful. 

Ill likely have more questions soon seeing as you went to Allard for criminal law.  I might just dm you for those if thats cool. Nice to know someone fairly active here is in an area that Im interested in!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

StephenToast
  • Law Student

Hey there! I'm a similarly situated 1L at Osgoode. I made the decision to move from BC to Toronto and no regret so far. However, do take my opinion with a massive pile of salt as I'm just a 1L with no appreciation of the job market or how my experience at Osgoode would measure up against UBC.

I fully agree with everything that CleanHands said, however, pretty much everything they said also apply to Oz.

  • Cost - Cheaper than UofT but it is still a lot more expensive than UBC. This may not matter to you if you're well-off or get one of the big entrance scholarships+bursary.
  • Study body - with COVID and everything I haven't met enough people of my year to confidently say if they're hyper-focused on corporate. However, I have yet to meet anyone else who's dead set on criminal law.
  • Criminal Law Intensive - You take a term off from the classroom and get placed with a judge, a crown, or a defense lawyer. I've heard many good things about it although I personally haven't done it myself. I'm actually procrastinating from writing the application right now lol.
  • Innocence Project -  We also have that at Oz.
  • Great criminal law courses - yep we have those too
  • Great crim profs - Palma Paciocco, Benjamin Berger, and more
  • CLASP - Same deal with LSLAP if you are placed in the criminal law division. You can do it as a 1L caseworker throughout the term, or be a divisional leader over the summer and the regular term. You get paid in the summer and course credit during the regular term.

Personally, I chose Oz because I wanted to move to Ontario as I guessed (I'm more than happy to be corrected on this) that larger province=more opportunities I could pursuit, even taking into account the higher number of law students and lawyers. I also liked the possibility to going Bay in the very unlikely event that I spontaneously developed an interests in big law. Similarly, Oz has a crap ton of clinics, in case you develop an interest in disability law, anti-discrimination, environmental law, gendered violence, immigration and refugee etc. It also helped that I was indifferent to staying in BC and received enough bursary and a scholarship to bring my Oz tuition down to UBC's level.

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

CleanHands
  • Lawyer
12 minutes ago, StephenToast said:

-Snip-

Just to be clear, I completely agree that the two schools offer comparable opportunities. To me it comes down to cost and location, both of which favour UBC in the OP's case.

It's worth mentioning that you had HYS-level stats, so I doubt most Oz students receive comparable funding to you (I'm open to correction there, but I do find a much higher proportion of people I know IRL as opposed to the forums paid sticker price or close to it).

In any case it's great that the OP gets to hear from both sides of this equation, so thanks for helping balance out the thread.

Edited by CleanHands
  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

PhilosophyofLaw
  • Law Student

OP, this isn't related to your questions about the differences between Osgoode and UBC re: criminal law, but I'm a current JD/MA student, and I'd be happy to answer any questions or concerns you have about the program (to not further detract from this thread, it might be best to dm me).

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Darth Vader
  • Lawyer

Just an FYI about DMs - if the information would benefit everyone it should be posted publicly, because other people might have the same questions. 

OP, keep in mind that most criminal lawyers are sole practitioners or work in small firms. Even if you did have a preference of working in Ontario, nothing is stopping you from opening up your own firm here with a degree from UBC. If you want to land a job at the top criminal boutiques in Vancouver and Toronto, then in addition to your demonstrated interest in the area, you also need to have pretty good grades and a clerkship or two would help too. If you are fairly sure you will practice in criminal law and the cost differences are great, then it does not make sense to go to Osgoode over UBC. Osgoode only makes sense over UBC if you think you will move to Ontario AND you are open to pursuing other practice areas like corporate law.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you everyone for your helpful comments and feedback. I really appreciate it.

Fair point about the DMs--I'll keep that in mind.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Philosophy
  • Law Student
6 hours ago, CleanHands said:

Hi.

I made a post on the old forums about how UBC is an underrated, hidden gem of a criminal law school.

 

I guess you could say that it is criminally underrated 🙃

  • LOL 2
  • Nom! 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

Hey again folks.

 

Thought I would continue this thread instead of starting a new one. I recently got admitted to the MA side of the JD/MA in philosophy at york as well. I appreciate everyone's comments and feedback on strictly the JD side of things. I think if it were solely based on deciding between two JD programs, I would go for UBC given many of the things that @CleanHands kindly outlined and my connection to BC. But part of me has been wondering if the JD/MA would be a unique opportunity that is worth going to York for. I have thankfully received a decent funding package on the MA side of things at York and a modest but still helpful financial support from Osgoode. 

I was just wondering if folks had any feedback or thoughts about the situation. Im not asking yall to make the decision for me, but Im wondering if Im a little bit in my head about what i may be missing out if I declined the JD/MA offer. As I mentioned in the OP, I dont want to rule out pursuing academia in the future, but I dont know if its necessary to do a JD/MA right now or if it would be better to just focus on getting a JD. Im also not sure if the JD/MA would even be additionally helpful in the legal market. Open to hearing perspectives whether or not you are/have been in a JD/MA program. 

Cheers

Edited by awdamndude
Clarifying some points.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Darth Vader
  • Lawyer
7 minutes ago, awdamndude said:

Hey again folks.

 

Thought I would continue this thread instead of starting a new one. I recently got admitted to the MA side of the JD/MA in philosophy at york as well. I appreciate everyone's comments and feedback on strictly the JD side of things. I think if it were solely based on deciding between two JD programs, I would go for UBC given many of the things that @CleanHands kindly outlined and my connection to BC. But part of me has been wondering if the JD/MA would be a unique opportunity that is worth going to York for. I have thankfully received a decent funding package on the MA side of things at York and a modest but still helpful financial support from Osgoode. 

I was just wondering if folks had any feedback or thoughts about the situation. Im not asking yall to make the decision for me, but Im wondering if Im a little bit in my head about what i may be missing out if I declined the JD/MA offer. As I mentioned in the OP, I dont want to rule out pursuing academia in the future, but I dont know if its necessary to do a JD/MA right now or if it would be better to just focus on getting a JD. Im also not sure if the JD/MA would even be additionally helpful in the legal market. Open to hearing perspectives whether or not you are/have been in a JD/MA program. 

Cheers

I have a friend that did the JD/MA in Philosophy at Osgoode. Typically only 1 or 2 people a year do it. The MA in Philosophy is pretty much useless in the legal field. I'm not sure if it is worth paying Osgoode levels of tuition just to do an MA in philosophy at York, because you can probably do the MA in Philosphy after anyways fully or partially funded. If your goal is academia, just do the MA, LLM, PhD, etc. after you finish your law degree. Save your money and go to UBC. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

BlockedQuebecois
  • Lawyer
39 minutes ago, Darth Vader said:

I have a friend that did the JD/MA in Philosophy at Osgoode. Typically only 1 or 2 people a year do it. The MA in Philosophy is pretty much useless in the legal field. I'm not sure if it is worth paying Osgoode levels of tuition just to do an MA in philosophy at York, because you can probably do the MA in Philosphy after anyways fully or partially funded. If your goal is academia, just do the MA, LLM, PhD, etc. after you finish your law degree. Save your money and go to UBC. 

In reading your post, it's not clear to me if by "paying Osgoode levels of tuition" you mean the difference between paying Osgoode's tuition for three years compared to UBC's for the same time, or if you are saying you pay Osgoode's tuition for the MA portion as well.

If the latter, my understanding is all the joint masters and PhD programs at Osgoode have you enrol in the graduate program, making you eligible for MA funding and making you "pay" the relevant program's tuition rather than Osgoode's.

That's certainly the case for the JD/MA in Philosophy

Quote

In Year 2, students will be registered for three terms of full-time study in the MA in Philosophy, they will receive MA funding. 

And York's MA in philosophy is funded at $22,000 to $28,000 for the year, which obviously far exceeds the MA tuition and fees of 1,711.39 per term (or $5,134.17/three term year). 

I'm not making any judgments on whether its a good idea to do it or not (I frankly don't know enough people with MAs in Philosophy to opine), but I just wanted to make sure others who are considering this option understand the financial situation. 

Edited by BlockedQuebecois
Realised there were two ways to interpret Darth's comment.
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

toro-nigiri
  • Applicant
6 hours ago, awdamndude said:

Hey again folks.

 

Thought I would continue this thread instead of starting a new one. I recently got admitted to the MA side of the JD/MA in philosophy at york as well. I appreciate everyone's comments and feedback on strictly the JD side of things. I think if it were solely based on deciding between two JD programs, I would go for UBC given many of the things that @CleanHands kindly outlined and my connection to BC. But part of me has been wondering if the JD/MA would be a unique opportunity that is worth going to York for. I have thankfully received a decent funding package on the MA side of things at York and a modest but still helpful financial support from Osgoode. 

I was just wondering if folks had any feedback or thoughts about the situation. Im not asking yall to make the decision for me, but Im wondering if Im a little bit in my head about what i may be missing out if I declined the JD/MA offer. As I mentioned in the OP, I dont want to rule out pursuing academia in the future, but I dont know if its necessary to do a JD/MA right now or if it would be better to just focus on getting a JD. Im also not sure if the JD/MA would even be additionally helpful in the legal market. Open to hearing perspectives whether or not you are/have been in a JD/MA program. 

Cheers

Don't have any advice, but just wanted to say that I'm in pretty much the same boat! Also got into the MA recently and I think at this point my top two choices are also UBC and Osgoode, for the same reasons you've said. That said, I haven't heard back from UBC yet so if they don't accept me I guess it'll be an easy choice 🙂

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

1 hour ago, toro-nigiri said:

Don't have any advice, but just wanted to say that I'm in pretty much the same boat! Also got into the MA recently and I think at this point my top two choices are also UBC and Osgoode, for the same reasons you've said. That said, I haven't heard back from UBC yet so if they don't accept me I guess it'll be an easy choice 🙂

Thats awesome! Congrats on your admission and best of luck on the ones you are waiting on 🙂 Nice to hear someone else is in the same boat. Maybe our paths will cross!

 

And thank you @Darth Vader I appreciate your comment!

 

 

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.


×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By accessing this website, you agree to abide by our Terms of Use. YOU EXPRESSLY ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT YOU WILL NOT CONSTRUE ANY POST ON THIS WEBSITE AS PROVIDING LEGAL ADVICE EVEN IF SUCH POST IS MADE BY A PERSON CLAIMING TO BE A LAWYER. We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.