Switching In-House to Bay Street

[Spreckles]

On 5/28/2022 at 10:47 PM, Jaggers said:

Our income puts us in a pretty good spot (probably top 1-3% of households in Canada) but a household income of $550K puts you in the stratosphere. Probably the top 0.1% of households.

That’s an interesting perspective. When I think of stratospheric incomes, I picture people driving Ferraris and shopping in Yorkville. Meanwhile I am still at the pasta aisle at No Frills debating if I should buy 3 cans of tomato sauce so I can get them for $3 each or just stick with the one bottle I need for $3.79

[Spreckles]

14 hours ago, Snax said:

I know what you’re saying in that comparisons between industries aren’t that useful, but I think those comparisons are relatively fair in this context. Most lawyers, especially those intelligent enough and who posses a strong enough work ethic to get positions in big law for the most part would have been able to pursue those careers had they chosen to do so prior to pursuing law.  Effectively, it’s a comparison to foregone opportunities, which I think is fair.  

Disagree. Do you know how many lawyers suck at math? A law school classmate of mine once asked me what to punch into a calculator, in what order to do a basic algebra calculation. I can’t imagine them working on spreadsheets all day. And that person ended up at a 7 sister. 

[infoinfoinfo]

1 hour ago, Spreckles said:

That’s an interesting perspective. When I think of stratospheric incomes, I picture people driving Ferraris and shopping in Yorkville. Meanwhile I am still at the pasta aisle at No Frills debating if I should buy 3 cans of tomato sauce so I can get them for $3 each or just stick with the one bottle I need for $3.79

Well actually you're quite right. Astonishingly enough, $550k doesn't get you to the top 0.1%. You need about $800k as individual (not household) to earn your spot in the 0.1%. Even at that level of income, buying a Ferrari is a stupid financial choice, but doable. 

The $550k household income is just enough to get that person in the 1%. Although there is nothing to complain with such an income, there is a huge difference in lifestyle between the 0.1% and the 1%. That concentration of wealth is a bit ridiculous to say the least. 

1 hour ago, Spreckles said:

Disagree. Do you know how many lawyers suck at math? A law school classmate of mine once asked me what to punch into a calculator, in what order to do a basic algebra calculation. I can’t imagine them working on spreadsheets all day. And that person ended up at a 7 sister. 

You might be right, but most bankers weren't the best in English (or French in Québec) either, which is essential in grasping the nuances in a material contract. I think C_Terror coins it in the fact that all those professions are sort of mercenaries in the financial industry and big movements of capital which makes their comparison quite fair (and to be honest, although there are some differences in compensation whether you're big law, big 4, IBD or PE, the salaries are indeed quite comparable up to a point - amongst the top salaries you can dream to earn without being an entrepreneur).

[Bob Jones]

1 hour ago, infoinfoinfo said:

Well actually you're quite right. Astonishingly enough, $550k doesn't get you to the top 0.1%. You need about $800k as individual (not household) to earn your spot in the 0.1%. Even at that level of income, buying a Ferrari is a stupid financial choice, but doable. 

The $550k household income is just enough to get that person in the 1%. Although there is nothing to complain with such an income, there is a huge difference in lifestyle between the 0.1% and the 1%. That concentration of wealth is a bit ridiculous to say the least. 

You might be right, but most bankers weren't the best in English (or French in Québec) either, which is essential in grasping the nuances in a material contract. I think C_Terror coins it in the fact that all those professions are sort of mercenaries in the financial industry and big movements of capital which makes their comparison quite fair (and to be honest, although there are some differences in compensation whether you're big law, big 4, IBD or PE, the salaries are indeed quite comparable up to a point - amongst the top salaries you can dream to earn without being an entrepreneur).

I don’t know. What if we just put the 99% into the 1%, and make everyone 1%?

 

 

[Rearden]

On 5/26/2022 at 9:33 AM, KOMODO said:

I think people are really burned out. That goes for partners too, but associates feel it even more because (1) they have more to miss out on, given their typical age; and (2) they generally have less exciting payoff for their work (servicing student loans, paying rent on an apartment, whereas partners working hard are more likely to take fun vacations, live a more luxury lifestyle, etc.). Also think about the fact that when many partners were associate age, they were saving up for houses and working hard towards a meaningful goal, they had stay at home spouses who lessened the non-office workload, etc. 

So you have a super burned out workforce, they're exhausted, their jobs don't include the same incentives and excitement that they did a few years ago when everyone was in the office, the labour market is really tight and these associates are getting calls every week from recruiters saying they could easily get another job, and then a partner calls to say there's a new big file that needs immediate intensive evening and weekend work. And the associates are like, no way. I'm already at my limit, I could easily get basically the same job at another firm, so the answer is: I'm at capacity, I would be happy to assist on the file but can't start for two weeks, and it will take me longer than you'd like to complete the tasks. Cue partner yelling into the void because every associate on the floor says the same thing.

The other thing that I see happening is an increase in the amount of working time it takes to bill hours (or conversely, more pressure to get things done "quickly", but they take the same amount of time, so you just hide the "extra" time, often by putting it to a nonbillable file or not docketing it at all). This is one of the key burnout factors in my opinion. Associates are working like dogs, and at the end of the year the partners are like, your hours are okay but not amazing. And that's super demoralizing and just makes people want to quit. I think this is happening more lately because of the massive increase in volume of non-productive email which takes time to review, sort and file but doesn't accomplish anything. It's much more noticeable if you work on lots of files in a day, which makes it harder to "hide" the organizational time in a bigger matter.

I think some associates, particularly at the junior levels, are also feeling discouraged because of the lack of separation between work and home life, or an inability to truly "disconnect", which the pandemic/WFH seems to have exacerbated and which does not seem to improve much as you get more senior.

Before the pandemic, for example, if I was having a slow-ish day and left the office at, say, 6 or 7 pm, there was generally no expectation that I take my computer home with me or respond to emails/work requests after I left, unless something truly urgent came up (in which case someone would usually just call me). Nowadays, everything seems to be more urgent and I regularly get emails---from clients and partners---at all hours that I am expected to deal with promptly (e.g., after 9-10 pm demanding that I turn something around for the next morning).

I'm not claiming that cell phones and laptops are novelties and that no one ever tried to reach me after hours pre-pandemic, but I sometimes wonder (though admittedly can't speak to) whether partners/associates 10/15/20 (or even 5) years ago had a greater ability to disconnect once they left the office.

[Rusty Iron Ring]

53 minutes ago, Rearden said:

Nowadays, everything seems to be more urgent and I regularly get emails---from clients and partners---at all hours that I am expected to deal with promptly (e.g., after 9-10 pm demanding that I turn something around for the next morning).

This is gross.  Unless these are real, actual emergencies (which come with the territory and always did), somebody needs to learn boundaries. 

[Rashabon]

My firm has made a concerted effort to avoid later emails where possible. Obviously when working on a deal, you have to get things done. But making it clear when things aren't urgent, using delay delivery to send it the next day, etc. 2022 has been quiet compared to 2021 so far as well so that's been a big plus.

[KOMODO]

2 hours ago, Rearden said:

I think some associates, particularly at the junior levels, are also feeling discouraged because of the lack of separation between work and home life, or an inability to truly "disconnect", which the pandemic/WFH seems to have exacerbated and which does not seem to improve much as you get more senior.

Before the pandemic, for example, if I was having a slow-ish day and left the office at, say, 6 or 7 pm, there was generally no expectation that I take my computer home with me or respond to emails/work requests after I left, unless something truly urgent came up (in which case someone would usually just call me). Nowadays, everything seems to be more urgent and I regularly get emails---from clients and partners---at all hours that I am expected to deal with promptly (e.g., after 9-10 pm demanding that I turn something around for the next morning).

I'm not claiming that cell phones and laptops are novelties and that no one ever tried to reach me after hours pre-pandemic, but I sometimes wonder (though admittedly can't speak to) whether partners/associates 10/15/20 (or even 5) years ago had a greater ability to disconnect once they left the office.

I definitely agree that it's harder to disconnect, and I feel like a lot of us are completing work in drips, slowly, because we're tired and slow, but that means that the total time you feel like you're working is longer.

Agreed with the other comments though that only a rare true emergency should be assigned at 9pm for turnaround the next morning. Lots of us work late but it's volume, not by surprise. I could not work under the conditions you're describing!

[disgruntledpelican]

Not getting an email to turn around stuff at 9-10pm unless truly urgent would have been nice. Unfortunately that was not my experience and I had many more days with that type of fire drill as opposed to ones without. Also managed to have every single holiday including Christmas and New Years blown up casually for stuff that the client didn’t even reply to until a week after January. 
 

Suffice it to say I am much happier in-house. 

[Bob Jones]

6 hours ago, Rearden said:

I think some associates, particularly at the junior levels, are also feeling discouraged because of the lack of separation between work and home life, or an inability to truly "disconnect", which the pandemic/WFH seems to have exacerbated and which does not seem to improve much as you get more senior.

Before the pandemic, for example, if I was having a slow-ish day and left the office at, say, 6 or 7 pm, there was generally no expectation that I take my computer home with me or respond to emails/work requests after I left, unless something truly urgent came up (in which case someone would usually just call me). Nowadays, everything seems to be more urgent and I regularly get emails---from clients and partners---at all hours that I am expected to deal with promptly (e.g., after 9-10 pm demanding that I turn something around for the next morning).

I'm not claiming that cell phones and laptops are novelties and that no one ever tried to reach me after hours pre-pandemic, but I sometimes wonder (though admittedly can't speak to) whether partners/associates 10/15/20 (or even 5) years ago had a greater ability to disconnect once they left the office.

That’s too bad to hear. What area are you practising in?

[Jaggers]

Early in the pandemic, especially when the schools were closed, people were working all kinds of off hours, sending emails early in the morning, late at night, weekends, etc. We got the feedback from people, especially in our employee engagement survey, and the message went out to stop doing that. Obviously it still happens from time to time, and we do have the odd emergency, but the change mostly happened and worked.

[Rusty Iron Ring]

I like to work late a couple of days per week (because it lets me keep my weekends absolutely sacred, and lets me duck out early to hang out with the kids a couple of times per week). I have made sure that every person who might conceivably be worried what I think of them understands that the fact that I send an email after hours absolutely does not mean I expect a response after hours.  It just means that I got to it after hours and I need to wrap it up before I forget about it.

Everyone is told repeatedly that nothing is an emergency unless it is specifically labelled as an emergency, and nothing is worth ruining a weeknight, weekend, or holiday unless I apologize in advance for needing to ruin their weeknight, weekend, or holiday. 

This profession is demanding enough without intentionally making it harder on our own team.