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UBC vs Osgoode


jcfm
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jcfm
  • Law Student

Assuming you have no geographic preference as to whether you want to work in Toronto or Vancouver, which school is the better bet for securing BigLaw, gov't jobs, clerkship? 

Is UBC considered as prestigious as Osgoode or does Osgoode have a slight edge?

My impression of law school rankings is: 

U of T (clear 1st)

UBC (debatably 2nd)

McGill (debatably 3rd)

Osgoode (debatably 4th)

[modestly sized, but clear separation]

the rest 

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Gamgee
  • Law Student

Is this post trying to bait a school ranking? 🤨

UBC & Osgoode are probably going to get you similar opportunities for big law, government & clerkship. The biggest difference is likely going to be your geographical preference (where do you want to practice, in Vancouver or Toronto?) and cost ($ at UBC vs. $$$ at Osgoode). That's probably it, "ranking" amounts to nill between those schools. 

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jcfm
  • Law Student
2 minutes ago, RUIQ said:

Is this post trying to bait a school ranking? 🤨

UBC & Osgoode are probably going to get you similar opportunities for big law, government & clerkship. The biggest difference is likely going to be your geographical preference (where do you want to practice, in Vancouver or Toronto?) and cost ($ at UBC vs. $$$ at Osgoode). That's probably it, "ranking" amounts to nill between those schools. 

No, it isn't. And I understand why it would be perceived that way. Ranking is definitely NOT the be all and end all, but it's also not zero value. Perceived prestige does confer some modest value. It sounds like like you'd agree that if someone doesn't care whether they practice in Van or TO, then take the cheaper tuition at UBC and run?

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QMT20
  • Lawyer

 

51 minutes ago, jcfm said:

Assuming you have no geographic preference as to whether you want to work in Toronto or Vancouver, which school is the better bet for securing BigLaw, gov't jobs, clerkship? 

Is UBC considered as prestigious as Osgoode or does Osgoode have a slight edge?

My impression of law school rankings is: 

U of T (clear 1st)

UBC (debatably 2nd)

McGill (debatably 3rd)

Osgoode (debatably 4th)

[modestly sized, but clear separation]

the rest 

For clerkships, this order is incorrect. The best would be McGill or U of T. McGill has an advantage over other schools for placing students at the FCA, they place at the QCCA in province, and they get a couple spots on ONCA every year as well. U of T generally does the best for ONCA hiring and they got 4/12 spots at BCCA this year as well. I've been told that McGill does the best for SCC but I haven't seen numbers to support that. In any case, U of T, UBC, and Osgoode all place multiple students every year at the SCC as well, and I believe U of T placed 7 there this year. I don't think the difference at the SCC is that large between Osgoode/UBC and some other law schools though. For example, Queen's places 2-4 at the SCC every year though Osgoode has a clear advantage over Queen's at ONCA. 

For big law, UBC would do better than Osgoode in the West and Osgoode does better in Toronto. However, students from UBC place in Toronto every year and students from Osgoode place in Vancouver and Calgary every year as well. The main difference is you'd have to do more leg work yourself if you're applying to Vancouver from Osgoode or to Toronto from UBC because the career office networking events, info sessions, and materials will likely be focused on each school's home market. 

For government, there's probably a geographic advantage to being in UBC if you want to be in BC and Osgoode if you want to be in Toronto but the cost of the schools would be a bigger factor. Crown students are paid significantly less than big law students (at least in Ontario) so if it would cost you more to go to one school vs the other that should be a deciding factor. As long as you can show a connection to BC, you wouldn't be disadvantaged applying to firm/government jobs there by going to Osgoode and vice versa for UBC and Ontario. 

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Avatar Aang
  • Lawyer

Your ability to secure an appellate/SCC clerkship, Big law, and government will largely depend on your class standing more than anything else. 

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QMT20
  • Lawyer
2 minutes ago, Avatar Aang said:

Your ability to secure an appellate/SCC clerkship, Big law, and government will largely depend on your class standing more than anything else. 

This is true but among top students at each school, more spots go to some schools every year than others. For example, Queen's/Western typically get 1 spot at ONCA every year vs U of T which averages around 4-5/year. The people from Queen's who landed at ONCA in each of the last 3 years were medalists whereas it can't be the case that every student at U of T who landed at ONCA was a medalist. Conventional wisdom is top 10% at your school are competitive but the top 10% at some schools are more competitive than others. I don't think that's necessarily fair but as someone who went through the clerkship application process and landed an appellate clerkship, I definitely think that's true. 

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LMP
  • Law Student
6 minutes ago, Avatar Aang said:

Your ability to secure an appellate/SCC clerkship, Big law, and government will largely depend on your class standing more than anything else. 

If that were the case wouldn't we see a roughly equal number of clerkships given to each school?  Correcting for class size of course. 

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jcfm
  • Law Student

Yes, as between your class rank and where you went to school, rank is more determinative. But all else equal, your adds are better if you're coming from a more highly regarded school. I.e. a top 10% student from U of T stands a substantially better chance at clerking than a top 10% student from Queens. 

But yes, a top 10% student from Queens has far better odds at most anything than a median student at U of T. No one is denying this.

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Avatar Aang
  • Lawyer
3 minutes ago, QMT20 said:

This is true but among top students at each school, more spots go to some schools every year than others. For example, Queen's/Western typically get 1 spot at ONCA every year vs U of T which averages around 4-5/year. The people from Queen's who landed at ONCA in each of the last 3 years were medalists whereas it can't be the case that every student at U of T who landed at ONCA was a medalist. Conventional wisdom is top 10% at your school are competitive but the top 10% at some schools are more competitive than others. I don't think that's necessarily fair but as someone who went through the clerkship application process and landed an appellate clerkship, I definitely think that's true. 

Just now, LMP said:

If that were the case wouldn't we see a roughly equal number of clerkships given to each school?  Correcting for class size of course. 

I am mainly speaking in the context of this thread which is about Osgoode and UBC. Obviously the outcome for top 10% students at other lower ranked schools will be different for clerkships and Big law placement rates. Between Osgoode and UBC there is little to no difference. 

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jcfm
  • Law Student
19 minutes ago, QMT20 said:

 

For clerkships, this order is incorrect. The best would be McGill or U of T. McGill has an advantage over other schools for placing students at the FCA, they place at the QCCA in province, and they get a couple spots on ONCA every year as well. U of T generally does the best for ONCA hiring and they got 4/12 spots at BCCA this year as well. I've been told that McGill does the best for SCC but I haven't seen numbers to support that. In any case, U of T, UBC, and Osgoode all place multiple students every year at the SCC as well, and I believe U of T placed 7 there this year. I don't think the difference at the SCC is that large between Osgoode/UBC and some other law schools though. For example, Queen's places 2-4 at the SCC every year though Osgoode has a clear advantage over Queen's at ONCA. 

For big law, UBC would do better than Osgoode in the West and Osgoode does better in Toronto. However, students from UBC place in Toronto every year and students from Osgoode place in Vancouver and Calgary every year as well. The main difference is you'd have to do more leg work yourself if you're applying to Vancouver from Osgoode or to Toronto from UBC because the career office networking events, info sessions, and materials will likely be focused on each school's home market. 

For government, there's probably a geographic advantage to being in UBC if you want to be in BC and Osgoode if you want to be in Toronto but the cost of the schools would be a bigger factor. Crown students are paid significantly less than big law students (at least in Ontario) so if it would cost you more to go to one school vs the other that should be a deciding factor. As long as you can show a connection to BC, you wouldn't be disadvantaged applying to firm/government jobs there by going to Osgoode and vice versa for UBC and Ontario. 

All sensible. But I guess my question isn't which school is better for Toronto or Vancouver jobs. My question is, if you aggregated the number of BigLaw jobs secured irrespective of geography AND the number of clerkships secured (again irrespective of geography), who does better UBC or Osgoode? And does Osgoode have a higher unemployment / failed to secure articles rate than Vancouver? Tangentially related to that, is the Toronto market more saturated than the Vancouver legal market?

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jcfm
  • Law Student
2 minutes ago, Avatar Aang said:

I am mainly speaking in the context of this thread which is about Osgoode and UBC. Obviously the outcome for top 10% students at other lower ranked schools will be different for clerkships and Big law placement rates. Between Osgoode and UBC there is little to no difference. 

I agree. The difference is modest at most. But in a forced choice situation, which school would you guess secures more BigLaw jobs and clerkships? 

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pinball
  • Lawyer

There's about a 90% chance that a student won't end up top 10% in their law school, so I hope no one makes "does this school typically place 2 students at the CA instead of 3?" the primary factor when choosing a law school

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Avatar Aang
  • Lawyer
Just now, jcfm said:

I agree. The difference is modest at most. But in a forced choice situation, which school would you guess secures more BigLaw jobs and clerkships? 

UBC is probably better for Big law IF you are fine with working in Vancouver and out West. The Toronto Big law recruitment is very competitive and less than 30% of Osgoode students secure Big law jobs in Toronto. Granted, not everyone wants to work in Big law or Toronto for that matter, but I would guess that the Vancouver recruitment is less competitive and UBC is viewed as the top school in the region, so going there would position you better for Big law. I imagine more than 30% of UBC students secure Big law jobs as well, but if I am wrong, maybe someone that went there can correct me. 

That being said, if you do the JD/MBA at Osgoode, you can secure a Big law job quite easily even with average grades.

As for clerkships, I doubt anyone here has concrete numbers to give you, but UBC grads do well for BC courts and Osgoode does well for Ontario courts. That is about it. 

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LMP
  • Law Student
4 minutes ago, Avatar Aang said:

UBC is probably better for Big law IF you are fine with working in Vancouver and out West. The Toronto Big law recruitment is very competitive and less than 30% of Osgoode students secure Big law jobs in Toronto. Granted, not everyone wants to work in Big law or Toronto for that matter, but I would guess that the Vancouver recruitment is less competitive and UBC is viewed as the top school in the region, so going there would position you better for Big law. I imagine more than 30% of UBC students secure Big law jobs as well, but if I am wrong, maybe someone that went there can correct me. 

That being said, if you do the JD/MBA at Osgoode, you can secure a Big law job quite easily even with average grades.

As for clerkships, I doubt anyone here has concrete numbers to give you, but UBC grads do well for BC courts and Osgoode does well for Ontario courts. That is about it. 

Where are you getting this less than 30% number from? During 2L OCI Osgoode consistently places 35%+ in big law.

I haven't seen any indication that UBC does significantly better, but if they do I can't imagine it being more than a few percents. Especially given that UofT placed about 41% and I don't think UBC is placing at that level. 

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historicaladvantage
1 minute ago, LMP said:

Where are you getting this less than 30% number from? During 2L OCI Osgoode consistently places 35%+ in big law.

I haven't seen any indication that UBC does significantly better, but if they do I can't imagine it being more than a few percents. Especially given that UofT placed about 41% and I don't think UBC is placing at that level. 

This. Osgoode typically hovers around 35ish% for Big Law jobs during OCIs, and many students are successful in the articling recruit from Osgoode too in getting Big Law jobs. 

I also agree that UBC is not better than Osgoode. Very comparable reputations among employers, courts, and even the general public. A UBC J.D. is probably a little bit more transferable to the BC job market, and Osgoode is a bit more transferable to the Ontario job market, but the difference is slight and they both have excellent professional flexibility. The major difference is networking opportunities--assuming your JD becomes in person again, networking opportunities in BC are easier to come by when you're going to a school in BC, and the same goes for Toronto/Ontario jobs vis-a-vis Osgoode. 

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jcfm
  • Law Student
5 minutes ago, LMP said:

Where are you getting this less than 30% number from? During 2L OCI Osgoode consistently places 35%+ in big law.

I haven't seen any indication that UBC does significantly better, but if they do I can't imagine it being more than a few percents. Especially given that UofT placed about 41% and I don't think UBC is placing at that level. 

I believe U of T is 48%. So, conceivably, UBC could be between 35% and 48%. I am not saying that this is the case however. 

Perhaps UBC is better at placing for BigLaw in Vancouver than is Osgoode at placing in Toronto. UBC is the most highly ranked school BC, and many UVic students self-select out of BigLaw, so it would seem plausible that it's a less competitive market for securing BigLaw jobs in BC than Toronto. Again, this is strictly (reasonable) conjecture!

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historicaladvantage
18 minutes ago, jcfm said:

I agree. The difference is modest at most. But in a forced choice situation, which school would you guess secures more BigLaw jobs and clerkships? 

UBC secures more Big Law jobs and clerkships in BC, Osgoode secures more Big Law jobs and clerkships in Ontario. But I would guess this is a sampling bias more than anything, i.e., less UBC people apply in Ontario, and less Osgoode people apply in BC, for said jobs. 

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Avatar Aang
  • Lawyer
6 minutes ago, LMP said:

Where are you getting this less than 30% number from? During 2L OCI Osgoode consistently places 35%+ in big law.

I haven't seen any indication that UBC does significantly better, but if they do I can't imagine it being more than a few percents. Especially given that UofT placed about 41% and I don't think UBC is placing at that level. 

Definitely not more than 35%. It's consistently in the 25-33% range for the last couple of years AND OCI placement rates are not the same as Big law placement rates. Many of the employers participating in OCIs and articling recruitment are not Big law employers. 

In fact, most Big law employers do not even participate in the articling recruit. 

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CleanHands
  • Lawyer

@jcfm When the new forum started I tried to kid myself into thinking I wouldn't post just to berate people this time around, but you are really testing me here. Just stop, dude.

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historicaladvantage
1 minute ago, jcfm said:

I believe U of T is 48%. So, conceivably, UBC could be between 35% and 48%. I am not saying that this is the case however. 

Perhaps UBC is better at placing for BigLaw in Vancouver than is Osgoode at placing in Toronto. UBC is the most highly ranked school BC, and many UVic students self-select out of BigLaw, so it would seem plausible that it's a less competitive market for securing BigLaw jobs in BC than Toronto. Again, this is strictly (reasonable) conjecture!

In Toronto, UBC is not between 35-48%. Maybe in Vancouver, but not in Toronto -- but again, this is a sampling bias. Most people who want a corporate job from UBC want one in Vancouver, not Toronto. So there are far less job applicants in Toronto from UBC. But the prestige level and treatment by employers is, regardless of this fact, basically the same. 

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ZineZ
  • Lawyer
5 minutes ago, LMP said:

Where are you getting this less than 30% number from? During 2L OCI Osgoode consistently places 35%+ in big law.

I haven't seen any indication that UBC does significantly better, but if they do I can't imagine it being more than a few percents. Especially given that UofT placed about 41% and I don't think UBC is placing at that level. 

UltraVires had Osgoode at 35% this year. The thing to keep in mind is that the raw number also matters. I wouldn't focus too much on percentage. 102 students from Osgoode were hired through the recruit.

@Avatar Aang 's point should be considered regarding the fact that UBC gives you access to recruitment on the West Coast - which has its own advantages. But Osgoode is a fine school to apply from in either case. 

 

 

http://ultravires.ca/2019/12/toronto-summer-2020-2l-recruit-numbers/

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CleanHands
  • Lawyer
Just now, historicaladvantage said:

In Toronto, UBC is not between 35-48%.

UBC doesn't place half their class in Toronto OCI jobs? Gee, you don't say...

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Avatar Aang
  • Lawyer
2 minutes ago, ZineZ said:

UltraVires had Osgoode at 35% this year. The thing to keep in mind is that the raw number also matters. I wouldn't focus too much on percentage. 102 students from Osgoode were hired through the recruit.

@Avatar Aang 's point should be considered regarding the fact that UBC gives you access to recruitment on the West Coast - which has its own advantages. But Osgoode is a fine school to apply from in either case. 

 

 

http://ultravires.ca/2019/12/toronto-summer-2020-2l-recruit-numbers/

That's insane. Probably the highest I've seen. 

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historicaladvantage
Just now, CleanHands said:

UBC doesn't place half their class in Toronto OCI jobs? Gee, you don't say...

Haha, I know. I'm just trying to help OP understand this situation better. As a former law student having gone through this process, having clarity before law school is an important resource. 

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ZineZ
  • Lawyer
23 minutes ago, jcfm said:

 And does Osgoode have a higher unemployment / failed to secure articles rate than Vancouver? Tangentially related to that, is the Toronto market more saturated than the Vancouver legal market?

The Toronto market is saturated. But if you're interested in Osgoode's articling numbers, use this: https://digitalcommons.osgoode.yorku.ca/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1017&context=annual_reports

The 2019 class had 280 students with articling positions.  7 were looking as of April 1, 2020 and 9 were in the "other" category (LPP/non-traditional)

 

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