Biglaw Real Estate Associate - Ask Me Anything

[Hitman9172]

On 8/24/2021 at 3:10 PM, EmplawmentLaw said:

@KOMODO @Hitman9172 @tails

Thank you for your contributions.

Can I ask if you've seen any/many RE associates or partners who've crossed over to the actual business side of RE? A friend of mine runs a REPE firm in the US and says that some of the best RE investors are lawyers who did exactly that (e.g. legends like Sam Zell but also many regional/local developers he's worked with, etc.). I'm assuming that its partly to do with the highly technical nature of RE development (zoning, etc.). What do you think?

Also, can I ask how much of your job requires you to actually understand the biz side of RE?

It happens but it's not very common. The CEO of Jones Lang Lasalle (I believe) in Canada is a former real estate lawyer. And I know of some lawyers at pension funds who were former partners at law firms, joined as VP/SVPs Legal, and then transitioned to a full-time business role. It's not a well-trodden path, and I find that one of the downsides of being a professional services provider (lawyer, accountant, banker) is that you don't fully see/understand the business deal from A to Z as you're brought in to advise on specific aspects after the high-level deal has already been put together. However, real estate is quite legal-intensive (particularly development), so it's not impossible for lawyers to either join the business-side for a client or do their own (usually residential) deals. You pick up a lot through osmosis and reps.

[EmplawmentLaw]

1 hour ago, Hitman9172 said:

It happens but it's not very common. The CEO of Jones Lang Lasalle (I believe) in Canada is a former real estate lawyer. And I know of some lawyers at pension funds who were former partners at law firms, joined as VP/SVPs Legal, and then transitioned to a full-time business role. It's not a well-trodden path, and I find that one of the downsides of being a professional services provider (lawyer, accountant, banker) is that you don't fully see/understand the business deal from A to Z as you're brought in to advise on specific aspects after the high-level deal has already been put together. However, real estate is quite legal-intensive (particularly development), so it's not impossible for lawyers to either join the business-side for a client or do their own (usually residential) deals. You pick up a lot through osmosis and reps.

Thank you for the reply, especially given that its the weekend.

[Rashabon]

I'd also suggest that part of the difficulty is that RE lawyers have a very specific skill set - the actual conveyancing and/or development. A lot of in-house legal positions at the high level in these organizations want folks with a broader or more corporate oriented skill set.

For example: https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/search/?currentJobId=2690106839&geoId=101174742&keywords=cpp investments&location=Canada

The posting is for a real estate focused position with CPPIB, but they want a corporate or securities lawyer with RE exposure, not a real estate lawyer.

[tails]

5 hours ago, Rashabon said:

I'd also suggest that part of the difficulty is that RE lawyers have a very specific skill set - the actual conveyancing and/or development. A lot of in-house legal positions at the high level in these organizations want folks with a broader or more corporate oriented skill set.

For example: https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/search/?currentJobId=2690106839&geoId=101174742&keywords=cpp investments&location=Canada

The posting is for a real estate focused position with CPPIB, but they want a corporate or securities lawyer with RE exposure, not a real estate lawyer.

This seems to be true of a lot of in-house positions. RE lawyers are needed for leasing/acquisitions but only where there is lots of physical real estate assets. Same goes for banks not wanting banking lawyers. Obviously jobs still exist for real estate and banking lawyers in house but general corporate practice seems fits better into corporations for the most part.

[Hitman9172]

For sure. Real estate lawyers do have in-house opportunities ranging from large corporations (developers or retail companies with large RE holdings) to public sector employers like municipalities, but corporate/commercial has the broadest range of in-house roles, although I have seen a few real estate law colleagues recently go in-house as "corporate counsel". Not sure exactly what their day-to-day role entails though. 

[EmplawmentLaw]

8 hours ago, Rashabon said:

I'd also suggest that part of the difficulty is that RE lawyers have a very specific skill set - the actual conveyancing and/or development. A lot of in-house legal positions at the high level in these organizations want folks with a broader or more corporate oriented skill set.

For example: https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/search/?currentJobId=2690106839&geoId=101174742&keywords=cpp investments&location=Canada

The posting is for a real estate focused position with CPPIB, but they want a corporate or securities lawyer with RE exposure, not a real estate lawyer.

I would've thought the opposite (i.e. RE-focused position would want RE lawyers over corporate lawyers). But the way you put it in terms of skillsets makes a lot of sense.

When you say "corporate oriented skill set", can I ask what you mean more specifically? I know it's probably a dumb question, but I'm not as knowledgeable as I'd like to be regarding many practice areas.

Edited August 30, 2021 by EmplawmentLaw

[Andalusian2400]

Do you find that banking and finance practices are as intense as M&A? Are the cultures the same?

Additionally, how is real estate work complex? I was under the impression it's more straightforward than M&A

[tails]

20 hours ago, Andalusian2400 said:

Do you find that banking and finance practices are as intense as M&A? Are the cultures the same?

Additionally, how is real estate work complex? I was under the impression it's more straightforward than M&A

Large difference is banking lawyers are bound by banking hours. Obviously it’s still very fast pace and can be a grinder but there is no middle of the night closings. 
 

Depends what type of RE you are getting into. There is a lot of different aspects (ie real estate financing, purchase and sale, condo work, leasing, etc) that all require a different level of complexity. Sure, doing residential real estate may be simpler than M&A work. But Securities work also deals with a lot of fill in the blank forms if you want to argue that. There is complex work in any type of law in my opinion. 

[Andalusian2400]

 

2 hours ago, tails said:

Large difference is banking lawyers are bound by banking hours. Obviously it’s still very fast pace and can be a grinder but there is no middle of the night closings. 
 

Depends what type of RE you are getting into. There is a lot of different aspects (ie real estate financing, purchase and sale, condo work, leasing, etc) that all require a different level of complexity. Sure, doing residential real estate may be simpler than M&A work. But Securities work also deals with a lot of fill in the blank forms if you want to argue that. There is complex work in any type of law in my opinion. 

Which aspect of transactional law would you say is the most complex and interesting? I've always been interested in intercreditor arrangements and leveraged finance stuff.

Also, in real estate what is the most complex aspect? Financing?

[Hitman9172]

4 minutes ago, Andalusian2400 said:

 

Which aspect of transactional law would you say is the most complex and interesting? I've always been interested in intercreditor arrangements and leveraged finance stuff.

Also, in real estate what is the most complex aspect? Financing?

I find real estate work more complicated than most corporate work. In BC it’s like corporate law with an added layer of land-related laws (the Torrens registry system, regulatory requirements around development, ancient common law relating to interests in land, etc.)

I find leasing and development work to be the most complex at times, with financing generally being the most tedious because of all the things lenders require.

[Andalusian2400]

4 hours ago, Hitman9172 said:

I find real estate work more complicated than most corporate work. In BC it’s like corporate law with an added layer of land-related laws (the Torrens registry system, regulatory requirements around development, ancient common law relating to interests in land, etc.)

I find leasing and development work to be the most complex at times, with financing generally being the most tedious because of all the things lenders require.

Interesting. Do you find it complex and interesting in that you have to strategically think about how you want to approach it? Or is it more that it's complex because there are more hoops to jump through?

[tails]

7 hours ago, Andalusian2400 said:

 

Which aspect of transactional law would you say is the most complex and interesting? I've always been interested in intercreditor arrangements and leveraged finance stuff.

Also, in real estate what is the most complex aspect? Financing?

I agree with Hitman’s comments on this. Financing isn’t overly complicated due to bank forms, but obviously this changes based on the deals (ie syndicated or intercredit work may not apply). 
 

I think leasing is probably the most complex, but development work is up there too. Lots of thinking problems through and trying to solve them. Leasing is a lot of negotiation which can be fun. Lots of variety in my day which adds to the complexity. 

[Andalusian2400]

On 8/24/2021 at 2:49 PM, tails said:

Hi! Love all the responses here. Chiming in your add I’m a CRE associate at a big firm in Calgary. Happy to add any insight for those looking at Alberta as a practice option. 

What's your favorite aspect of real estate law? What's the most interesting? Do you feel like you play a support role to corporate and projects or are you in the drivers seat? How important is networking 

[tails]

7 hours ago, Andalusian2400 said:

What's your favorite aspect of real estate law? What's the most interesting? Do you feel like you play a support role to corporate and projects or are you in the drivers seat? How important is networking 

Personally, I like working with something tangible. Your clients get something out of the deal and that adds to the rewarding factor. I also like how structured it is (ie lots of legislation and land titles stuff is form based) however every single day I see something new or have a question about how it applies. I find the job to be the right amount of challenging. In terms of big law, I work more with individuals (instead of solely institutional clients) than a lot of my colleagues in other areas, which I personally love. 
 

Regarding my projects, definitely a bit of both. I have files that I run with oversight and I also participate as part of a team. I think that’s probably true of a lot of real estate associates in big law. The more complex, the more likely you’ll have a partner or senior associate overseeing the juniors, however starting as a first year I’ve been running files by myself. 
 

On networking, it’s definitely not not important. You’ll need to start earlier than your colleagues in say litigation or even securities. However, I found a great mentor who drags me to all sorts of client events with him so I can network with his clients juniors. Nice to start building those relationships early so as you move up so do they. I also would say, it’s not the most important thing as a junior, especially in big law. It’s the partners jobs to bring the clients, not necessarily yours. 

[Phoenix]

I am an internationally trained lawyer who was called in August 2021. Please any ideas or strategies for securing an associate position in CRE?

[Hitman9172]

On 10/24/2021 at 5:34 PM, Phoenix said:

I am an internationally trained lawyer who was called in August 2021. Please any ideas or strategies for securing an associate position in CRE?

Which province are you located in? If you're in BC, there's tons of job openings for associates in CRE and recruiters are calling pretty regularly. In any event, I'd suggest reaching out to lawyers at firms you're interested in for coffee/lunch. If someone's looking to hire, you could make a connection that'll get your foot in the door. Also check out the Canadian Bar Association (CBA) and LinkedIn job postings.

[jawnlegend]

Hi @Komodo! I'm a 1L currently researching firms for upcoming recruit. What's your opinion on the veracity of Chambers' and Legal500's rankings on CRE practice (particularly with regard to the Toronto market).

Edited January 4, 2022 by jawnlegend

[KOMODO]

10 hours ago, jawnlegend said:

Hi @Komodo! I'm a 1L currently researching firms for upcoming recruit. What's your opinion on the veracity of Chambers' and Legal500's rankings on CRE practice (particularly with regard to the Toronto market).

Yeah, the firms listed there are most of the big ones for commercial real estate...I might quibble over the placement here or there, but those tables give you a good idea of who the largest players are. I would also recommend keeping your mind open to mid-size firms that practice commercial real estate, as the ones listed in the tables are doing the biggest deals but you can also get solid transferable experience working for midmarket clients doing the same type of work, and as a 1L I would always recommend that you keep as many options open as possible (vs limiting yourself to just a few of the biggest firms).

Also, with any rankings, I would point out that law firms and even departments are not homogenous creatures. The best firms will have a few medium lawyers, and at the medium firms there will be a star or two...so regardless of where you end up, the key is to find a great mentor who you respect. Your work and life can vary wildly within the same firm depending on the partner(s) you work with.