TRU IS RESCINDING OFFERS

[Hastings]

2 hours ago, Abc321 said:

They are refunding the deposit for those people who are removed from the fall 2021 class and choose not to waitlist/defer. I think they may also return the deposit if the deferral is turned down later (i.e. don't get in this fall off the waitlist and then choose not to defer either). But I don't quite remember. 

Even if I informed them I was accepting elsewhere? I thought the deposit is non-refundable and I was the one who turned them down, not vice versa. Maybe they will refund it out of good will for their mistake! That would be amazing.  

[Lawllapalooza]

14 minutes ago, Hastings said:

Even if I informed them I was accepting elsewhere? I thought the deposit is non-refundable and I was the one who turned them down, not vice versa. Maybe they will refund it out of good will for their mistake! That would be amazing.  

You should not expect a refund. You removed yourself from the fall 2021 class, they did not remove you. 

[historicaladvantage]

7 hours ago, realpseudonym said:

I feel bad too. Emotionally, it’s a huge letdown for any of those students. Not to mention a massive inconvenience, if they’ve already started making plans  

That said, I do encourage any of the rescinded applicants to follow your second post, and take a bit of time before proceeding towards concrete action. Aside from whether public sentiment will be with you, it can still be difficult to obtain a remedy, even if you’re morally right.

 I don’t do civil litigation and none of this should be construed as legal advice. But I’ve had clients who have been fucked by institutions. Some tried to get recourse. Others moved on. Some got something, others did not.

But at least in my experience, engaging a major institution (including universities) in conflict is time-consuming, emotionally draining work. These are quasi-bureaucratic, slow-moving institutions with the resources to fight. There can be a real personal cost to going up against these actors. I’ve had even successful litigants come away bitter and disillusioned from fighting a case, and I sometimes wonder how often the fight is worth it. 

Anyway, I’m also not encouraging anyone to roll over. This sucks, and if you can get something for it, great. But I wanted to note that fighting any bigger player can be hard, and that it can involve an emotional investment that is not insignificant. 

Anyway, all the best to anyone in this situation. You have my sympathies, regardless of what you do. 

I agree with everything you've said here, but also because these are bureaucratic institutions rife with crippling inertia and more resources than they know what to do with, that also means their pockets are deeper than the average respondent. But certainly worth taking a step back and considering your options first with a good lawyer before you consider a lawsuit, I agree. 

Edited June 18, 2021 by historicaladvantage

[Abc321]

1 hour ago, Hastings said:

Even if I informed them I was accepting elsewhere? I thought the deposit is non-refundable and I was the one who turned them down, not vice versa. Maybe they will refund it out of good will for their mistake! That would be amazing.  

yeah, I'm not sure in that case. I only know it was offered to me as one of the options -- waitlist, defer, or get my deposit back.. 

[luckycharm]

Promissory estoppel is one of the possible ways the applicant can pursue damages for the rescinded offer. This is a legal doctrine that will support the person harmed from the rescinded offer because of a promise of employment made and broken. ... The damages are sometimes serious.

[luckycharm]

3 minutes ago, luckycharm said:

Promissory estoppel is one of the possible ways the applicant can pursue damages for the rescinded offer. This is a legal doctrine that will support the person harmed from the rescinded offer because of a promise of employment made and broken. ... The damages are sometimes serious.

Document all your financial losses.

[BlockedQuebecois]

6 minutes ago, luckycharm said:

Promissory estoppel is one of the possible ways the applicant can pursue damages for the rescinded offer. This is a legal doctrine that will support the person harmed from the rescinded offer because of a promise of employment made and broken. ... The damages are sometimes serious.

Sure, just convince the courts to set aside decades of cases saying that promissory estoppel can only be used as a shield. And also convince the courts that there was a clear and unambiguous promise, which will be difficult considering the contractual relationship between the parties expressly disclaimed such a promise. Other than those two massive hurdles, easy peasy. 

If anybody actually wants to sue, they should consult a lawyer. Let’s not get a bunch of 0Ls riled up by referencing largely inapplicable legal doctrines. 

[Hastings]

1 hour ago, Lawllapalooza said:

You should not expect a refund. You removed yourself from the fall 2021 class, they did not remove you. 

That’s what I just said lol. I was clarifying that I removed myself, hence I don’t think a refund is possible. 

[whocaresnow]

I am one of the individuals affected by this mistake. I have signed a lease which starts in August 2021 and now am on the hook for this lease. TRU has completely pulled the rug from underneath me and landed a nice sucker punch. Don't know what to do. 

The email that was sent out implied we either have the option of deferring next year or being put on the waitlist for this year. No idea whether both are available - i.e., if not accepted then automatic deferral. Not gonna lie, I found that email to be rather flippant. I spoke to her on the phone and was told the waitlist was structured chronologically - the sooner you accepted, the higher you were on the waitlist, which completely removes any standards of the applicant in my opinion. 

Will be emailing the dean on Monday. I'm guessing they'll be sending me their thoughts and prayers. 

[BCLaw2021]

This issue is both newsworthy and worthy of public outrage. It is newsworthy relative to the community. See some less newsworthy front page articles today in Kamloops this Week for example:

https://www.kamloopsthisweek.com/community/bathroom-breaks-along-coquihalla-will-be-more-pleasant-1.24331996

https://www.kamloopsthisweek.com/news/burglar-steals-items-family-vehicle-and-food-from-the-fridge-1.24331759

It is worthy of public outrage, because an institution breached the confidence of the very people relied on by the public to promote the administration of justice. Think about the affected lawyers who graduate from this school - their first interaction with the legal profession is their own school's broken promise.

There are some posts here goes a bit into the legalities which I will on say this - just because there is a clause in a contract which says something, it doesn't mean it can be relied on so please do seek ILA, esp. someone well versed in contractual disputes.  

[Renerik]

Newsworthy in a regional and specialty context, absolutely agree with you on that. In this niche law community its a big deal but "worthy of public outrage"? Eh... Like Diplock said, there are greater injustices going on in our society. This might have a considerable impact on TRU's prestige, law school applications going forwards, the next year for the affected applicants, and possible broken leases in the township of Kamloops, but John Smith the plumber from Edmonton probably won't care. So contact the media if you want (I would) but no-one should expect the prime minister to give one of his famous "we can do better" speeches over this. 

30 minutes ago, BCLaw2021 said:

an institution breached the confidence of the very people relied on by the public to promote the administration of justice.

I mean, sure, the admitted applicants were screwed over big time, but will that have an effect on how those future lawyers administer justice or the relationship these future graduates will have with the public? I don't think this will, and if anything, will be a testament to the bs they went through to become a lawyer. I don't think this is a good reason for public outrage. 

As a side note: Earlier I said that those with rescinded offers who are BC residents should call their MLAs because the province is responsible for regulating and overseeing higher education. It's their job to listen to and take into consideration the complaints brought forth by their constituents. I interact with an MLA from the province of NS regularly through community projects and she stresses that she wished more people reached out regarding this kind of stuff. She might not be involved with the department of labour & advanced education but some of her peers are. Is ratting on TRU to your MLA going to get you a seat at the school? Absolutely not. But as others have mentioned in this thread, it'll garner attention and help those who were affected receive what they can out of this and hopefully set a fire under TRU's ass so that this stuff is less likely to happen for future applicants. 

[Toad]

1 hour ago, BCLaw2021 said:

It is worthy of public outrage, because an institution breached the confidence of the very people relied on by the public to promote the administration of justice. Think about the affected lawyers who graduate from this school - their first interaction with the legal profession is their own school's broken promise.

As someone with a strong dislike of speaking in absolutes, I can say with confidence that there will be no public outrage related to this.

The public perception of the legal profession is not great and most people view lawyers and law students as socially and economically privileged. Privileged people being temporarily inconvenienced is not going to arouse feelings of outrage in the general population. It's just not.

Chances are you, me, and everyone else in this thread read hundreds of stories each week that are far more outrage worthy than this incident and feel almost nothing. People have a limited capacity for outrage when there is an insufficient connection to their own lives. That limited capacity would be poorly used on this story.

 

 

Edited June 19, 2021 by Toad

[BlockedQuebecois]

I'm not really sure why people think this will have a big impact on TRU's reputation as a law school. TRU's reputation as a law school is that it's a law school in Canada. That's all it needs for the place it occupies in the market. 

This might be a big deal reputationally if Queens did it, because Queens and Western are in constant competition with each other and a screw up like this could reasonably make people favour Western.

But TRU occupies a unique niche in the law school market—it's the third best school in BC. It doesn't really compete with UVic or UBC, because both those schools are clearly better choices for most students (if only because of the cost of tuition). It similarly doesn't really compete with schools out of province, because you should generally study where you want to practice. 

So I don't see how this changes anything. Before this incident, if you wanted to practice in BC and didn't get into UBC or UVic, TRU was your best option. Now, if you want to practice in BC and don't get get into UBC or UVic, TRU is your best option. 

[Abc321]

7 hours ago, Toad said:

 

The public perception of the legal profession is not great and most people view lawyers and law students as socially and economically privileged. Privileged people being temporarily inconvenienced is not going to arouse feelings of outrage in the general population. It's just not.

 

 

 

This. I could see people scoffing at those "entitled law students who think they're special", rather than sympathizing. 

It's clearly much more than temporarily inconvenienced in a lot of cases, but that's not what people will see. 🤷‍♀️

[Abc321]

10 hours ago, whocaresnow said:

 

The email that was sent out implied we either have the option of deferring next year or being put on the waitlist for this year. No idea whether both are available - i.e., if not accepted then automatic deferral. Not gonna lie, I found that email to be rather flippant. I spoke to her on the phone and was told the waitlist was structured chronologically - the sooner you accepted, the higher you were on the waitlist, which completely removes any standards of the applicant in my opinion. 

 

I clarified this with Stefani yesterday. You can be on this overflow waitlist until September and if a seat is still not available at that point, you can defer to 2022. 

I sent her an email with all of my questions, to get a written reply--even though it was repeating a bit of our conversation. I like to have it in my inbox for future reference 🤷‍♀️

Edited June 19, 2021 by Abc321
more info

[Hegdis]

Stepping in to warn people off suggesting certain legal paths have more of less chance of being successful.... for obvious reasons, no one here can give legal advice.

To the students who have been affected by this: the musings of other posters should NOT frame your idea of what legal options you may or may not have. If you want to look into this path you need to consult a lawyer offline.

[whocaresnow]

2 hours ago, Abc321 said:

I clarified this with Stefani yesterday. You can be on this overflow waitlist until September and if a seat is still not available at that point, you can defer to 2022. 

I sent her an email with all of my questions, to get a written reply--even though it was repeating a bit of our conversation. I like to have it in my inbox for future reference 🤷‍♀️

I don't know how much I can trust this deferral process. They completely dropped the ball and went against their word. What's stopping them from doing it again? Any idea if they are offering deferral grants for individuals impacted their absolutely unprofessional conduct?

[QMT20]

10 hours ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

I'm not really sure why people think this will have a big impact on TRU's reputation as a law school. TRU's reputation as a law school is that it's a law school in Canada. That's all it needs for the place it occupies in the market. 

This might be a big deal reputationally if Queens did it, because Queens and Western are in constant competition with each other and a screw up like this could reasonably make people favour Western.

But TRU occupies a unique niche in the law school market—it's the third best school in BC. It doesn't really compete with UVic or UBC, because both those schools are clearly better choices for most students (if only because of the cost of tuition). It similarly doesn't really compete with schools out of province, because you should generally study where you want to practice. 

So I don't see how this changes anything. Before this incident, if you wanted to practice in BC and didn't get into UBC or UVic, TRU was your best option. Now, if you want to practice in BC and don't get get into UBC or UVic, TRU is your best option. 

You don't think it would affect TRU in drawing applicants away from schools like Windsor, Ryerson, or Manitoba? I feel like there's a number of applicants every year who might be splitters or who might have lower stats but genuinely great ECs, and who don't know where they might be accepted so they apply broadly across Canada. Many of them end up getting into multiple schools with lower LSAT/GPA requirements. Even if they're leaning towards BC over Ontario, you don't think the insecurity they might feel about accepting a TRU offer would sway them towards Windsor with a good chance in Ontario and still a possibility to get back to BC? 

If I were an applicant I think I'd be inclined towards a more secure offer of admission and figure out where I practice after I get into law school but that's just me. 

I do sympathize with all the applicants who had the rug pulled out from under them by TRU. When I applied, I received my first admission in late April. I wasn't a high priority candidate for the schools I applied to but law school presented a fresh start and I was able to capitalize on the opportunity to mature and become one of the top students in my year. My life would have been totally different if something like this had happened to me. Now these students won't have that opportunity for a fresh start, at least not this year. It really sucks. 

[LMP]

15 minutes ago, QMT20 said:

You don't think it would affect TRU in drawing applicants away from schools like Windsor, Ryerson, or Manitoba?  

I think it may have a small residual effect next year, but nothing lasting or serious. 

We forget sometimes how little information new applicants have on things like this. Most apply fairly blind. There will be a whole host of applicants who probably didn't hear about this incident.

Moreover TRU seems to mostly pull from BC residents who didn't get into UBC or Uvic. I suspect many people will still apply, even if they are wary, thinking "well, I'm hopeful I get into my choice school but I'll toss in a TRU application just to be sure I can stay in BC". And then when they are given TRU offers, will accept.

[Whist]

I agree with LMP's point. Even if we grant that TRU's reputation will be damaged, and even laypeople know about it, enough people want to go to law school at (almost) any cost that they'd choose it anyway. The class will never struggle to be filled.

Edited June 19, 2021 by Liavas
Clarity

[Renerik]

3 hours ago, QMT20 said:

You don't think it would affect TRU in drawing applicants away from schools like Windsor, Ryerson, or Manitoba? I feel like there's a number of applicants every year who might be splitters or who might have lower stats but genuinely great ECs, and who don't know where they might be accepted so they apply broadly across Canada.

I can see where @BlockedQuebecois was coming from but was drunk when he posted last and started making this before passing out.

[Whist]

5 minutes ago, Renerik said:

I mean, I got rejected from UNB, but accepted to four other schools with equal or higher admission averages (including TRU). So I think the whole "safety school" discussion needs a revamp. 😅

[canuckfanatic]

May I offer you all a meme in this trying time?

(not trying to deflect blame from TRU - they seriously shit the bed)

[Godot]

For those interested an article from NYT on the 'overbooking' crisis in the US this year: Overbooked law schools are trying to induce some students to put off enrolling. - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

[CBCer]

I work with CBC radio in Kamloops and would love to hear from some students about their experiences getting these letters rescinded. If you are interested in sharing your story publicly so we can put those concerns to TRU directly, I would love to hear from you. My cell is 250-682-3881.

Thanks!