Windsor (Single JD) vs. Ryerson

[green_olives]

Hi everyone! I was accepted to Ryerson Law earlier in the cycle and just recently also got an acceptance from Windsor for the single JD program.

I'm a bit conflicted as I know Windsor Law is probably the better choice as its a more established Law School but, I am from the GTA and got comfortable with the idea of being close to home (I know not the greatest reason). 

Interested in peoples thoughts/opinions on which school would be best. 

[Avatar Aang]

12 minutes ago, green_olives said:

Hi everyone! I was accepted to Ryerson Law earlier in the cycle and just recently also got an acceptance from Windsor for the single JD program.

I'm a bit conflicted as I know Windsor Law is probably the better choice as its a more established Law School but, I am from the GTA and got comfortable with the idea of being close to home (I know not the greatest reason). 

Interested in peoples thoughts/opinions on which school would be best. 

Being close to home sounds great if you are an undergraduate student or someone with dependants/a spouse or partner, but if you want to attend the best school for your career, the clear choice is Windsor. Ryerson is only going into its second year while Windsor has been around for 50+ years. There is a vast network of Windsor alumni in every legal field while you will be the second test cohort for Ryerson Law. 

[green_olives]

20 minutes ago, Avatar Aang said:

Being close to home sounds great if you are an undergraduate student or someone with dependants/a spouse or partner, but if you want to attend the best school for your career, the clear choice is Windsor. Ryerson is only going into its second year while Windsor has been around for 50+ years. There is a vast network of Windsor alumni in every legal field while you will be the second test cohort for Ryerson Law. 

That makes a lot of sense. Thanks! 

[luckycharm]

Windsor hands down

[QueensDenning]

I would certainly choose Windsor. Beyond what has been said about alumni networks (which I've already found incredibly important, no way I would have the summer job that I do if the guy who hired me didn't happen to go to Queen's) I don't like the look of Ryerson's curriculum. Having just finished 1L, I really don't think there is a good substitute to traditional methods of teaching legal education (i.e. reading a lot of cases, taking black letter law classes, near 100% exams, etc.). I mean being tech-forward and "modernizing" legal education might sound good - but your going to law school to learn the law, and your summers will teach you how to practice law. I don't see how classes like coding fits in. And if you're interested in that sort of thing, no ones stopping you from taking those sorts of classes in addition to law school. With what I know now, I think tech is better left to tech professionals, and law is better left to legal professionals. 

Edited June 18, 2021 by QueensDenning

[Ben]

It might be worth reaching out to some people who recently finished their first year at Ryerson to hear a bit about it. They did pretty well at the 1L recruit if I remember right, which is a good sign.

I tend to be persuaded by the reasoning of some people on here who think that Ryerson will eclipse the other non-Toronto schools sooner than later. It's in the GTA, and they're hiring interesting people. Windsor is a pretty known quantity. You don't need to look into it much to figure out what it's like. Reach out to students who just finished 1L at Ryerson and see what they think. 

[pinball]

Is the intention amongst Ryerson students that most will apply for 1L/2L summer and articling positions? I recall one of their selling points when they were planning the school, was that their grads wouldn't have to article, though I could be wrong

[LMP]

59 minutes ago, pinball said:

Is the intention amongst Ryerson students that most will apply for 1L/2L summer and articling positions? I recall one of their selling points when they were planning the school, was that their grads wouldn't have to article, though I could be wrong

I suspect many think, right now, that they won't article. But come 3L they may be singing a different tune.

[BlockedQuebecois]

7 hours ago, LMP said:

I suspect many think, right now, that they won't article. But come 3L they may be singing a different tune.

Why would they article? If I were a Ryerson student, I would get called upon graduation no matter what. 

Most employers would view you being called as a significant bonus, so long as you were willing to accept a fixed-term contract. 

[LegalPerson]

22 hours ago, QueensDenning said:

I would certainly choose Windsor. Beyond what has been said about alumni networks (which I've already found incredibly important, no way I would have the summer job that I do if the guy who hired me didn't happen to go to Queen's) I don't like the look of Ryerson's curriculum. Having just finished 1L, I really don't think there is a good substitute to traditional methods of teaching legal education (i.e. reading a lot of cases, taking black letter law classes, near 100% exams, etc.). I mean being tech-forward and "modernizing" legal education might sound good - but your going to law school to learn the law, and your summers will teach you how to practice law. I don't see how classes like coding fits in. And if you're interested in that sort of thing, no ones stopping you from taking those sorts of classes in addition to law school. With what I know now, I think tech is better left to tech professionals, and law is better left to legal professionals. 

A+

[SlytherinLLP]

23 hours ago, QueensDenning said:

I would certainly choose Windsor. Beyond what has been said about alumni networks (which I've already found incredibly important, no way I would have the summer job that I do if the guy who hired me didn't happen to go to Queen's) I don't like the look of Ryerson's curriculum. Having just finished 1L, I really don't think there is a good substitute to traditional methods of teaching legal education (i.e. reading a lot of cases, taking black letter law classes, near 100% exams, etc.). I mean being tech-forward and "modernizing" legal education might sound good - but your going to law school to learn the law, and your summers will teach you how to practice law. I don't see how classes like coding fits in. And if you're interested in that sort of thing, no ones stopping you from taking those sorts of classes in addition to law school. With what I know now, I think tech is better left to tech professionals, and law is better left to legal professionals. 

I had to check out Ryerson's curriculum after this. 

Applying a tech bent to law school education is so weird to me. Technology law encompasses so many niche and highly specialized areas of law (privacy, data ownership, AI, copyright, blockchain, patents etc.), that it's almost a meaningless term. Don't see how any value is created for anyone but the very very few students that know they want to practice in this space as early as law school. And even then most "tech" law is fluid and in its infancy. Purely a branding decision I suppose.

 

[LMP]

20 minutes ago, SlytherinLLP said:

I had to check out Ryerson's curriculum after this. 

Applying a tech bent to law school education is so weird to me. Technology law encompasses so many niche and highly specialized areas of law (privacy, data ownership, AI, copyright, blockchain, patents etc.), that it's almost a meaningless term. Don't see how any value is created for anyone but the very very few students that know they want to practice in this space as early as law school. And even then most "tech" law is fluid and in its infancy. Purely a branding decision I suppose.

 

I think you've more or less nailed it. What they've done is taken their status as a new school and spun it, making it seem as though they are a modern, future facing option. 

A lot of the applicants above accepted Ryerson offers have cited this as one of their main reasons for doing so. 

Honestly they've had some excellent marketing. I don't buy half of the things they say, but it has certainly worked to whip up quite a bit of interest and make their school stand out.

[pinball]

14 hours ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

Why would they article? If I were a Ryerson student, I would get called upon graduation no matter what. 

Most employers would view you being called as a significant bonus, so long as you were willing to accept a fixed-term contract. 

How will firms that participate in formal 2L student recruitment treat Ryerson students? Treat them as first year associates while the rest of that summer class articles? That likely won't go over well with the other students...

[BlockedQuebecois]

Look, people (mostly law students who are afraid to compete) have been trash talking Ryerson since it first suggested it would open a law school. People have been saying its tech angle is dumb. People have been saying its grads will be unemployed. People have been saying it will be much worse than Windsor and Lakehead. 

So what happened when Ryerson's inaugural class had the chance to prove themselves? They placed more students in the 1L recruit than Ottawa, Windsor, and Lakehead ever have. They placed more students in the 1L recruit than all those schools and Western this year. 

It's far from clear that Windsor is the better choice for your career than Ryerson. I've said for a long time that Ryerson is going to be a lot closer to the Queens/Western tier of law schools than the Windsor tier, and quickly at that. At the end of the day, though, none of us really know. 

All I can say is that if I were choosing between these two schools, I'd go with Ryerson.

 

@pinball they'll pay them as articling students and get them on a fixed-term contract. They're not going to go through the extra administrative hassle of forcing them to article when they can just hire them as called lawyers on a fixed-term contract. 

Edited June 19, 2021 by BlockedQuebecois

[SlytherinLLP]

23 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

Look, people (mostly law students who are afraid to compete) have been trash talking Ryerson since it first suggested it would open a law school. People have been saying its tech angle is dumb. People have been saying its grads will be unemployed. People have been saying it will be much worse than Windsor and Lakehead. 

So what happened when Ryerson's inaugural class had the chance to prove themselves? They placed more students in the 1L recruit than Ottawa, Windsor, and Lakehead ever have. They placed more students in the 1L recruit than all those schools and Western this year. 

It's far from clear that Windsor is the better choice for your career than Ryerson. I've said for a long time that Ryerson is going to be a lot closer to the Queens/Western tier of law schools than the Windsor tier, and quickly at that. At the end of the day, though, none of us really know. 

All I can say is that if I were choosing between these two schools, I'd go with Ryerson.

 

@pinball they'll pay them as articling students and get them on a fixed-term contract. They're not going to go through the extra administrative hassle of forcing them to article when they can just hire them as called lawyers on a fixed-term contract. 

I generally agree that Ryerson will rise to the Queens/Western tier, but I don't see any evidence that will happen anytime soon given the acceptance stats I saw on the previous website. However, being situated in downtown Toronto alone will be a major advantage. 

The 2L recruit will be telling. The 1L recruit sample size is so small, there are years where Windsor/Ottawa have outperformed Queens or Western (https://ultravires.ca/2020/10/toronto-summer-2020-1l-recruitment-results/), and that is not at all reflected in the 2L recruit.

I don't like the knee jerk Ryerson bashing either. It is what it is for a new law school. I've spoken to some Ryerson 1Ls since and they are your typical ambitious and smart law student. 

Edited June 19, 2021 by SlytherinLLP

[Darth Vader]

I generally agree with @BlockedQuebecois post here, with the caveat that if you want to pursue social justice jobs, Windsor is a better school than Ryerson. Windsor doesn't perform well in the corporate recruitment compared to most other law schools, and Ryerson may edge Windsor out in this category soon given what we see with the 1L recruit, but Windsor still places well in social justice and government jobs. It has more established clinics as well. Ironically, Ryerson has marketed itself as an access to justice school but I think it will quickly become known more for corporate and tech more than anything else. 

[Parker]

For what it's worth, I applied this year and I applied to Ryerson and would have happily gone and I didn't even apply to Windsor. This isn't me shitting on Windsor, it just wasn't a good fit for me. I'm from the GTA (like you OP) and would have saved money living at home, they performed well in 1L recruit (although we have yet to see what 2L recruit shows), having Toronto as a base is great for networking and it's a nice city to live in. I'm essentially just echoing the above, but as an applicant this year I heavily considered Ryerson and the only thing that likely would have made me pick Windsor over it is if I was interested in social justice careers. 

If I were you, I'd talk to 1Ls from Ryerson and get a better idea of what it is like. A lot of them weren't on the old forum and rarely posted because Ryerson just got shit on. You can probably find them on the discord and I know they have a specific Ryerson discord as well to talk to this years applicants. 

[green_olives]

20 hours ago, Parker said:

For what it's worth, I applied this year and I applied to Ryerson and would have happily gone and I didn't even apply to Windsor. This isn't me shitting on Windsor, it just wasn't a good fit for me. I'm from the GTA (like you OP) and would have saved money living at home, they performed well in 1L recruit (although we have yet to see what 2L recruit shows), having Toronto as a base is great for networking and it's a nice city to live in. I'm essentially just echoing the above, but as an applicant this year I heavily considered Ryerson and the only thing that likely would have made me pick Windsor over it is if I was interested in social justice careers. 

If I were you, I'd talk to 1Ls from Ryerson and get a better idea of what it is like. A lot of them weren't on the old forum and rarely posted because Ryerson just got shit on. You can probably find them on the discord and I know they have a specific Ryerson discord as well to talk to this years applicants. 

Thanks, can I ask how you know Ryerson performed well in 1L recuit? Is there a forum or something I can look at? 

[Parker]

24 minutes ago, green_olives said:

Thanks, can I ask how you know Ryerson performed well in 1L recuit? Is there a forum or something I can look at? 

My source is largely just this forum, like BlockedQuebecois below who's opinion and information I almost always trust. I believe ultravires posts stats!

21 hours ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

So what happened when Ryerson's inaugural class had the chance to prove themselves? They placed more students in the 1L recruit than Ottawa, Windsor, and Lakehead ever have. They placed more students in the 1L recruit than all those schools and Western this year. 

 

[Eatable Bran]

https://ultravires.ca/2020/10/toronto-summer-2020-1l-recruitment-results/

 

Not sure where the Ry 1L number reports are coming from, but it’s not ultravires. Could still well be true though!!

[Ben]

13 minutes ago, Eatable Bran said:

https://ultravires.ca/2020/10/toronto-summer-2020-1l-recruitment-results/

 

Not sure where the Ry 1L number reports are coming from, but it’s not ultravires. Could still well be true though!!

This is from the previous year. Ryerson Law didn’t exist. 

[Eatable Bran]

5 hours ago, Ben said:

This is from the previous year. Ryerson Law didn’t exist. 

This makes way more sense, I decided 2020 meant the 2020-2021 school year, which obviously makes no sense

[jcfm]

On 6/19/2021 at 3:29 PM, SlytherinLLP said:

I generally agree that Ryerson will rise to the Queens/Western tier, but I don't see any evidence that will happen anytime soon given the acceptance stats I saw on the previous website. However, being situated in downtown Toronto alone will be a major advantage. 

The 2L recruit will be telling. The 1L recruit sample size is so small, there are years where Windsor/Ottawa have outperformed Queens or Western (https://ultravires.ca/2020/10/toronto-summer-2020-1l-recruitment-results/), and that is not at all reflected in the 2L recruit.

I don't like the knee jerk Ryerson bashing either. It is what it is for a new law school. I've spoken to some Ryerson 1Ls since and they are your typical ambitious and smart law student. 

where are the acceptance stats?

[historicaladvantage]

On 6/18/2021 at 11:31 AM, green_olives said:

Hi everyone! I was accepted to Ryerson Law earlier in the cycle and just recently also got an acceptance from Windsor for the single JD program.

I'm a bit conflicted as I know Windsor Law is probably the better choice as its a more established Law School but, I am from the GTA and got comfortable with the idea of being close to home (I know not the greatest reason). 

Interested in peoples thoughts/opinions on which school would be best. 

Ryerson can be good because it allows you to skip articling. In what little time it's been around it's developed a solid reputation. Windsor is undoubtedly more established, but the reputation of Windsor is merely good, not stellar with employers. 

I think this is basically going to come down to personal preference. If you're more interested in opening your own practice sooner, or you're more interested in tech and legal entrepreneurship, Ryerson would be the better choice. Their program has a major tech spin and a major entrepreneurial stream. They're not big on blackletter legal education. 

If you're more interested in working in firm settings and can't see yourself opening up a solo practice or going into tech or entrepreneurship, then Windsor might be a slightly better choice as it is a far more traditional law school. 

My opinion: You can't really go wrong either way. Windsor is better for a traditional legal career. Ryerson is better for an entrepreneurial student interested in being a more contemporary kind of lawyer. It's worth noting that Ryerson's reputation still has to be forged--so it could go up, or it could go down. It did very well in the 1L recruit and it looks like it may be on the way up with the novel way it's viewing legal education. If you look at going to Ryerson as an investment in a new product that's been performing well so far, and you see yourself as a bit of self starter, I think that would be the choice. If you're not interested in playing the stock market, Windsor all the way. The important thing is, both are good law schools that will offer you a bright future. 

Edited June 21, 2021 by historicaladvantage

[QueensDenning]

33 minutes ago, historicaladvantage said:

If you're more interested in working in firm settings and can't see yourself opening up a solo practice or going into tech or entrepreneurship, then Windsor might be a slightly better choice as it is a far more traditional law school. 

Please don't go to law school if you plan on going into "tech or entrepreneurship." There are many cheaper, quicker, less stressful and more effective ways to get into these fields.