University of Ottawa vs Dalhousie

[7chicken_nuggies]

Hello, 

I have been accepted to the University of Ottawa and Dalhousie. With the travel restrictions in Halifax, and Ontario just coming out of lockdown, it makes it hard to plan for a trip to tour either campus/city to get a feel for which I would like.

If anyone has any information or opinions regarding either schools that would be great to hear your input. If you are a former/current student, I would love to hear about your experience with the school, city, what you liked/didn't like about it, etc.

If you have been in my position and made a decision, would you mind sharing what were the deciding factors for you?

Any input would be greatly appreciated, thanks!

[Skier41]

Do you have an idea of what law you want to practice, or where you want to practice? Any personal interests to either school/city?

[Renerik]

Some things to know about Halifax: Often, (almost yearly) we get a storm that knocks the power out province-wide for 24+ hours. Very few powerlines are underground because the city sits on bedrock. If you don't live on the Peninsula, you can lose power for over 3 days at a time. Otherwise bad weather often knocks out power for a few minutes/hours. Rent is comparable to Ottawa. Things close early here. It's less busy than Ottawa. Been to both cities and people here are more laid back. We have a serial glove enthusiast https://www.nighttimepodcast.com/episodes/gloveguy.

Edited June 18, 2021 by Renerik

[7chicken_nuggies]

6 hours ago, Skier41 said:

Do you have an idea of what law you want to practice, or where you want to practice? Any personal interests to either school/city?

I think I would like to be in the corporate or real estate field but that could change as I go through school/summer jobs/articling. I am born and raised in Vancouver so I am planning on coming back to article in the city after I finish school. 

In terms of the cities, I visited Ottawa once during high school where we visited the museums and parliament buildings. Unfortunately, I have not visited Halifax or any of the Maritime provinces.

I have spent a lot of time on both of the school websites but they seem to be similar in terms of having expansive course offerings, legal clinics, and student societies. Really not sure if either one would be considered a "better" school. 

[7chicken_nuggies]

6 hours ago, Renerik said:

Some things to know about Halifax: Often, (almost yearly) we get a storm that knocks the power out province-wide for 24+ hours. Very few powerlines are underground because the city sits on bedrock. If you don't live on the Peninsula, you can lose power for over 3 days at a time. Otherwise bad weather often knocks out power for a few minutes/hours. Rent is comparable to Ottawa. Things close early here. It's less busy than Ottawa. Been to both cities and people here are more laid back. We have a serial glove enthusiast https://www.nighttimepodcast.com/episodes/gloveguy.

Thank you for your input on the city of Halifax! Since I will not have my car out there, I would be looking to live walking distance to Dal. Is the transit system reliable in the event of a storm like that? How about for going out to hikes and sightseeing? It seems like Halifax has plenty of hiking trails around but would require driving out of the city..

That's great to hear- I'm from Vancouver so I'm used to the laid back, West Coast vibe. Would you say that things closing early means there is not much nightlife in Halifax? I'm not a partier but I do enjoy going to happy hours here which is usually from 8pm-close (which was around 12-1am before covid).

[Renerik]

15 minutes ago, 7chicken_nuggies said:

Thank you for your input on the city of Halifax! Since I will not have my car out there, I would be looking to live walking distance to Dal. Is the transit system reliable in the event of a storm like that? How about for going out to hikes and sightseeing? It seems like Halifax has plenty of hiking trails around but would require driving out of the city..

That's great to hear- I'm from Vancouver so I'm used to the laid back, West Coast vibe. Would you say that things closing early means there is not much nightlife in Halifax? I'm not a partier but I do enjoy going to happy hours here which is usually from 8pm-close (which was around 12-1am before covid).

Compared to Vancouver and Ottawa, the transit in Halifax is not great. Most bus lines only pass every half hour (major lines on the peninsula can arrive every 15 minutes) and many lines running off the peninsula (cheaper housing) stop running past 10pm. There's an interesting parallel you could draw between Ottawa-Gatineau and Halifax-Dartmouth. Taking the bus from Dartmouth to DAL often takes over an hour. Taking the bus from Gatineau to UOttawa takes much less time. During the classic yearly tropical storms/hurricanes, the transit stops operating for a few hours from when the storm hits to when it subsides meaning you can be stranded if you don't plan ahead. It's not uncommon for some routes to be 15+ minutes late when weather is inclement, this includes when it snows because we don't invest in snow removal infrastructure. This might sound overly negative but from the time I spent in Ottawa, their transit is much better than ours.

Parks are plenty but hiking trails are out of the city and hard to access via transit. Your best bet would be to try and swindle a ride from someone. If you're into clubbing, there's an active scene for that but the city isn't "alive" at night like most bigger cities. If you like Happy hour, there's a variety of small pubs open into the early AM so all good there. 

Edited June 19, 2021 by Renerik
Typo

[Skier41]

40 minutes ago, 7chicken_nuggies said:

I think I would like to be in the corporate or real estate field but that could change as I go through school/summer jobs/articling. I am born and raised in Vancouver so I am planning on coming back to article in the city after I finish school.

I’m not familiar with Ottawa but I know a couple of Dal students every year get articles in Vancouver and there is a number of alumni in the city. I’ve heard that some Vancouver and Calgary firms do OCIs at Dal so although most students don’t get articles through OCI, that may be an advantage (unless the same is true for Ottawa). 
 

Ultimately, the decision might come down to non-academic considerations (i.e. where would you rather live for 3 years). I’m an incoming Dal student so feel free to ask question or message me. 

Edited June 19, 2021 by Skier41
Grammar

[CheeseToast]

I chose Dal and it wasn’t even a contest. Ottawa has nearly double the amount of students, poorer facilities, a meh reputation and... it’s Ottawa lol.

[Darth Vader]

10 minutes ago, CheeseToast said:

I chose Dal and it wasn’t even a contest. Ottawa has nearly double the amount of students, poorer facilities, a meh reputation and... it’s Ottawa lol.

Dal and Ottawa pretty much have a similar reputation. Ottawa does very well for Ottawa Biglaw recruitment and government hiring. Dalhousie in comparison doesn't stand out in any hiring trends. 

OP, if you want to work in Vancouver in the corporate or real estate field, it doesn't matter where you go so long as your grades are decent. If you think you may want to work in Ottawa, in Ontario, or the federal government, there is no question that you should go to Ottawa. 

[CheeseToast]

1 minute ago, Darth Vader said:

Dal and Ottawa pretty much have a similar reputation. Ottawa does very well for Ottawa Biglaw recruitment and government hiring. Dalhousie in comparison doesn't stand out in any hiring trends. 

OP, if you want to work in Vancouver in the corporate or real estate field, it doesn't matter where you go so long as your grades are decent. If you think you may want to work in Ottawa, in Ontario, or the federal government, there is no question that you should go to Ottawa. 

Anecdotally, Dal has a way better rep out West and in Ontario is seen as equivalent to Queen’s and Western. I’ll grant you that Ottawa does better for fedgov but that’s it. There is no question in my mind that Dal > Ottawa if you want to work in BigLaw in any other major urban center aside from Ottawa (that includes those in Ontario, ie Toronto).

 

Dal doesn’t stand out in any hiring trends because a) it doesn’t have ~300 students as Ottawa does and b) its students go literally everywhere. That is, you can’t just look at ultravires and see how well Dal’s graduates do in BigLaw as you can for most/all Ontario schools. 

[pinball]

20 minutes ago, Darth Vader said:

Dal and Ottawa pretty much have a similar reputation. Ottawa does very well for Ottawa Biglaw recruitment and government hiring. Dalhousie in comparison doesn't stand out in any hiring trends. 

OP, if you want to work in Vancouver in the corporate or real estate field, it doesn't matter where you go so long as your grades are decent. If you think you may want to work in Ottawa, in Ontario, or the federal government, there is no question that you should go to Ottawa. 

I will add that the Ottawa "BigLaw" market is pretty small - there's only about 60-70 2L student jobs through the Ottawa summer formal recruitment process, and while about 50 percent of those 60-70 students are from uOttawa, that is still only about 10 percent of uOttawa's student cohort since their school size is so big.

[7chicken_nuggies]

17 hours ago, Skier41 said:

I’m not familiar with Ottawa but I know a couple of Dal students every year get articles in Vancouver and there is a number of alumni in the city. I’ve heard that some Vancouver and Calgary firms do OCIs at Dal so although most students don’t get articles through OCI, that may be an advantage (unless the same is true for Ottawa). 
 

Ultimately, the decision might come down to non-academic considerations (i.e. where would you rather live for 3 years). I’m an incoming Dal student so feel free to ask question or message me. 

I have actually reached out to and spoken with a few Dal alumni who are working in firms in Vancouver. All of them said there were no issues coming back to the city as they were able to secure articles during the firm tours that happen in second year. That being said, I'm doing my due diligence and checking with some Ottawa alumni to see if they will say the same. If not, it looks like Dal may have a clear advantage for me and that would sway my choice.

Since I haven't really been able to determine whether either program is better than the other, I have been looking extensively into the cities themselves. It's hard to get a true feeling for each if I haven't been to the campus etc. If you don't mind me asking, where will you be moving from? What made you choose Dal?

[7chicken_nuggies]

1 hour ago, CheeseToast said:

I chose Dal and it wasn’t even a contest. Ottawa has nearly double the amount of students, poorer facilities, a meh reputation and... it’s Ottawa lol.

Where did you end up moving from? And what did you mean by poorer facilities? Wouldn't a larger school have more funds and therefore, better facilities? I have talked to a current student and they said the school has a ton of admin for help and resources for students. I was starting to think a larger school would be more beneficial in that sense? 

[7chicken_nuggies]

1 hour ago, Darth Vader said:

Dal and Ottawa pretty much have a similar reputation. Ottawa does very well for Ottawa Biglaw recruitment and government hiring. Dalhousie in comparison doesn't stand out in any hiring trends. 

OP, if you want to work in Vancouver in the corporate or real estate field, it doesn't matter where you go so long as your grades are decent. If you think you may want to work in Ottawa, in Ontario, or the federal government, there is no question that you should go to Ottawa. 

Thanks for your input! I heard grades in first year are the most important as they use those for article placements.

I would like to come back to Vancouver ASAP so it's very unlikely I will stay in Ottawa if I go there. That being said, being immersed in the nation's capital might have some interesting work opportunities, which I would be open to. I guess I'm thinking due to it's smaller size/economy, Dal won't have as many of these opportunities? I was hoping to build my professional network so I was kind of leaning towards Ottawa, as I think there would be more people to connect with outside of the post-secondary bubble in Dal. I've heard it's mostly just uni students/retirees in Dal but I'm not sure if that's true.

[7chicken_nuggies]

1 hour ago, CheeseToast said:

Anecdotally, Dal has a way better rep out West and in Ontario is seen as equivalent to Queen’s and Western. I’ll grant you that Ottawa does better for fedgov but that’s it. There is no question in my mind that Dal > Ottawa if you want to work in BigLaw in any other major urban center aside from Ottawa (that includes those in Ontario, ie Toronto).

 

Dal doesn’t stand out in any hiring trends because a) it doesn’t have ~300 students as Ottawa does and b) its students go literally everywhere. That is, you can’t just look at ultravires and see how well Dal’s graduates do in BigLaw as you can for most/all Ontario schools. 

Are you implying that a uO grad would not do as well in terms of job applications when put up against a Dal grad?

How are you enjoying your time at Dal? Is there anything that stands out in the program or city that you think are unique enough to make someone attend Dal?

[7chicken_nuggies]

1 hour ago, pinball said:

I will add that the Ottawa "BigLaw" market is pretty small - there's only about 60-70 2L student jobs through the Ottawa summer formal recruitment process, and while about 50 percent of those 60-70 students are from uOttawa, that is still only about 10 percent of uOttawa's student cohort since their school size is so big.

Thanks for the input. I would ideally hope to find a summer job back home in Vancouver so I could get my foot in the door to secure an articling position there. Do you think I would have a harder time competing with the students from UBC/UVic/TRU coming from an out of province school like Ottawa or Dal?

[AnAssociate]

I will preface this with the fact that no one here is going to be able to definitively tell you which school is better for you, but I will give you an honest overview based on my own experience. No matter what you choose, if you are looking to move back to Vancouver with a law job my advice would be to get the best grades that you can.

In terms of reputation, I'm currently practicing, and I would agree with most people here that they are both pretty equal in terms of big law positions. I am on the hiring committee of our firm in Ottawa and there is an implicit bias toward certain schools (UofT), but for uO and Dal, we're simply looking to see that your grades are more competitive than the majority of other applicants. Because we are based in Ottawa we typically see more applicants from uO and McGill and so our office is majority staffed by former uO, McGill and TO students, but that is not due to a bias against Dal. I would also reflect what others said that Ottawa's big law recruit is very small. I remember in my year, we could see the number of applications per opening, and at most firms it was about 30-50 per position but there were a total of only around 60 positions. This has remained the case in my experience at my firm.

That said, in my experience both annecdotally and looking through resumes, there are absolutely more potentially relevant employment opportunities during law school in Ottawa than there are in Halifax, especially for government positions, which may assist you in building a resume, making money, and even branching outside law. They will generally not assist you as much as your grades or in-firm experience, but they are important.

I was in a joint JD/MA program at uO that took four years and during my first summer I was employed at a law firm, during my second summer I worked for government at a decently well-paying job at the Department of Finance and kept that position during my third year to make money. In my third year I also interned at one of Global Affairs' legal bureaus and got to do some really cool stuff. I then summered at a big law position I got through OCI that accepted me for articles and has now hired me back as an associate. They also let me continue working through law school in my fourth year. The important and relevant thing was that all of this was pretty seamless and honestly did not require much job searching or even preparation outside of OCIs to show that I was the "best" candidate. I was essentially put on a job conveyor belt through various co-op and internship offers through the schools I was at that assisted me in building my resume and connections. I cannot speak to whether the same is available at Dal for law firm position, but certainly insofar as government-based student opportunites, Ottawa is the leader there.

The large class sizes at uO are reflected in the diversity of program opportunites for students, but not necessarily in things like facilities, as noted by others. (I would also agree that the law building is not as nice as others' outside of a few classrooms and library rooms.) There is a joint American/Canada JD program, a JD/MBA program, multiple JD/MA programs that include other Canadian schools, and joint civil/common LLB/JD programs along with a French common law program. The class options are also absolutely immense at uOttawa outside of your first year as a consequence of the number of students, this leads to 10 specializations at uO vs 6 at Dal. Neither of these schools' official specializations will impact competitiveness though. When hiring we don't care about your official specilization, we care about the courses you took. Annecdotally, of my smaller JD/MA cohort, about a third ended up on Bay Street, though the percentage-based number at uO is quite a bit lower than that and while the total number is above Dal's, this is almost certainly because of the larger number of students at uO, as mentioned by others.

In terms of moving to Vancouver, I know of five students in my class that had family in Vancouver and so did the Vancouver recruit. Four of them recieved offers, the one that did not worked in Ottawa for a year and was subsequently hired in Vancouver. Again, that's quite annecdotal so take it with a grain of salt.

I don't really think you can go "wrong" in your choice, and so pick what's best for you. If you're looking to move back to Vancouver, again, get the best grades that you can.

[Louis St. Laurent]

On 6/19/2021 at 1:32 PM, 7chicken_nuggies said:

I have actually reached out to and spoken with a few Dal alumni who are working in firms in Vancouver. All of them said there were no issues coming back to the city as they were able to secure articles during the firm tours that happen in second year. That being said, I'm doing my due diligence and checking with some Ottawa alumni to see if they will say the same. If not, it looks like Dal may have a clear advantage for me and that would sway my choice.

Since I haven't really been able to determine whether either program is better than the other, I have been looking extensively into the cities themselves. It's hard to get a true feeling for each if I haven't been to the campus etc. If you don't mind me asking, where will you be moving from? What made you choose Dal?

uOttawa alum here: the national firms (and some of the larger regional firms, e.g Alexander Holbourn and Lawson Lundell) with offices in Vancouver do OCI's at Ottawa. It is much smaller than the Toronto recruit. I think in total there was somewhere in the range of 12-15 firms that came. 

As far as I know, the students at uOttawa who wanted to go to Vancouver had no issues doing so. There were a handful of people from my large group that got hired through the OCI process in Vancouver. 

I have no idea how uOttawa does against Dal in terms of the OCI applications to jobs ratio.  I would imagine for out of province schools, school reputation doesn't play a huge role. UBC and UVic dominate in Vancouver. If you have strong grades from either uOttawa or Dal you'll be fine. If you're below the class average at either of those schools, you'll probably have a tough time coming back. 

In terms of the city, Ottawa is pretty cool. The law school is right downtown, and most students lived within walking distance. There are lots of bars/restaurants and things to do. 

In terms of the law building, as others have pointed out, it sucks. It's old and small. I'm pretty sure it was built in the 60's or 70's. You definitely don't feel good spending $20K a year to study in that library. But, as I said, the law school is right downtown and there are tons of other good study spots all within walking distance, and by second year you don't really have to spend much time at the law school itself. 

Let me know if you have any other questions about uOttawa or Ottawa and i'll do my best to answer! 

 

[Skier41]

On 6/19/2021 at 1:32 PM, 7chicken_nuggies said:

Since I haven't really been able to determine whether either program is better than the other, I have been looking extensively into the cities themselves. It's hard to get a true feeling for each if I haven't been to the campus etc. If you don't mind me asking, where will you be moving from? What made you choose Dal?

I'm moving from BC to Halifax, so literally across the country. I chose Dal because of the collegiality, quality of the faculty, reputation across Canada (for a small school in the maritimes, it has access to most major markets in Canada), alumni network, smaller class size and course offerings (i.e. Health Institute). After talking with many students and attending their Weldon Welcome Days, Dal was just  the best fit for me. 

Both UOttawa and Dal will provide you with a good education, so it really depends on the "extra details," such as where you would rather live for 3 years or class size or course offerings (i.e. UOttawa has many more courses but also a much larger class size). Either way, there's no wrong choice, but I will say, I think Dal is the better choice 😉

Edited June 21, 2021 by Skier41
Grammar

[7chicken_nuggies]

On 6/20/2021 at 8:48 AM, AnAssociate said:

I don't really think you can go "wrong" in your choice, and so pick what's best for you. If you're looking to move back to Vancouver, again, get the best grades that you can.

Thank you so much for your in depth response! The things you mentioned were both helpful and insightful. 

You mentioned that firms care more about the types of courses you took rather than a specialty. What types of courses would these be? As far as I know, articling students are not assigned to a specific area of law, and given a range of work so they are exposed to different fields? As I look through the course selections for both schools, there's many that seem interesting me but I'm worried they may not be viewed as "helpful" to hiring committees. I think an example of this would be, a thematic course at uO called Happiness and the Law, which "examines the role of happiness in legal systems, ways to maximize happiness during law school and practical tools for maximizing happiness in legal practice." When compared with a thematic like "Corporations and Global Justice", it seems like the "fun" courses might not be viewed as favourably for hiring? I think I may want to practice in the corporate or real estate area but I'm not in law school yet so that could change easily.

Did you find the big law recruit being small meant that it was super competitive given the large size of the program? Was the vibe at uO competitive in classes as well? I've heard some stories about UBC/U of A students being super competitive, but not sure if that's how it is at uO or Dal. 

[7chicken_nuggies]

On 6/21/2021 at 3:58 PM, Skier41 said:

I'm moving from BC to Halifax, so literally across the country. I chose Dal because of the collegiality, quality of the faculty, reputation across Canada (for a small school in the maritimes, it has access to most major markets in Canada), alumni network, smaller class size and course offerings (i.e. Health Institute). After talking with many students and attending their Weldon Welcome Days, Dal was just  the best fit for me. 

So cool! I would also be doing that same move if I chose Dal. Congrats on getting in btw! How do you feel about moving so far?

Those are definitely all points I have been considering at when I compare uO and Dal. I was leaning towards Dal because of the smaller class sizes, but with COVID, Ottawa is offering much smaller class sizes this year (the small group classes are 6-8 people). It's really coming down to which city I would prefer to be in for the next 3 years. But it's so difficult making the decision without having visited either city.. Were you able to attend the Weldon Welcome days in person? I've heard so much about it but it happened before I got my offer. 

[7chicken_nuggies]

On 6/20/2021 at 9:24 PM, Louis St. Laurent said:

In terms of the city, Ottawa is pretty cool. The law school is right downtown, and most students lived within walking distance. There are lots of bars/restaurants and things to do. 

In terms of the law building, as others have pointed out, it sucks. It's old and small. I'm pretty sure it was built in the 60's or 70's. You definitely don't feel good spending $20K a year to study in that library. But, as I said, the law school is right downtown and there are tons of other good study spots all within walking distance, and by second year you don't really have to spend much time at the law school itself. 

Let me know if you have any other questions about uOttawa or Ottawa and i'll do my best to answer! 

 

Hey! Thanks for responding!

I'm looking more into the cities themselves to see if that will help my decision. What did you do during your spare time in Ottawa? I've heard the winters are quite harsh with heavy snowfall. I tend to like being outside when the weather permits- hiking, biking, snowboarding (but I don't think Ottawa has many options for that).

I'm also curious what you meant when you said by second year you don't have to spend much time at the school. Do most students end up working during school or studying off-campus?

I'm trying to plan a visit Ottawa in next couple weeks to get a feel of the school and city. Is there anything you can think of that I should make a point to check out while I'm in town other than the campus? 

[Louis St. Laurent]

On 6/30/2021 at 12:02 PM, 7chicken_nuggies said:

Hey! Thanks for responding!

I'm looking more into the cities themselves to see if that will help my decision. What did you do during your spare time in Ottawa? I've heard the winters are quite harsh with heavy snowfall. I tend to like being outside when the weather permits- hiking, biking, snowboarding (but I don't think Ottawa has many options for that).

I'm also curious what you meant when you said by second year you don't have to spend much time at the school. Do most students end up working during school or studying off-campus?

I'm trying to plan a visit Ottawa in next couple weeks to get a feel of the school and city. Is there anything you can think of that I should make a point to check out while I'm in town other than the campus? 

Hey, no problem!

 

Yes, winters in Ottawa are pretty harsh. Personally, I went to a lot of bars. Hiking and biking are out of the question in the winter, but there is some pretty good skiing relatively close in Quebec. You can definitely take a weekend to go up to Quebec and go skiing if that's your thing, and it was pretty common for students to do that while I was there. 

 

Time spent on campus:  In first year you have I think 7 courses, so you're basically at FTX (the law building) all day every day, with a short break in the afternoon. 

By second year, you only have five courses, and if you do things like student proposed internships or other extra curricular that are worth course credit, you will only have three or four.  At that point, you can design your schedule so that there are days where you don't have any classes, or only have to come for one class.  Most people I know didn't bother coming to campus to study and just studied at coffee shops or at home so they were only on campus 3 or 4 days a week. 

 

If you're visiting Ottawa, definitely check out Byward Market if things have opened up a bit by the time you visit, see Parliament and the Supreme Court, take a walk along the Canal, and maybe check out some of the museums.  If you live downtown basically everything is in walking distance, so it won't be too hard to get a feel for the area. 

[Eatable Bran]

I participated in a biglaw recruit out west recently, and am now summering at a firm with offices across Western Canada. I can tell you I met many Dalhousie candidates during the recruit and not one from UOttawa. Similarly, I can't think of one summer student in the firm from uOttawa, but there are certainly some from Dal.

That isn't to say you couldn't get hired out West with a UOttawa degree; I would assume the lack of uO candidates can be partially or wholly attributed to the fact that very few uO students apply out West. It's just to say that there certainly isn't a strong uO alumni network out West like there is for Dalhousie students.