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amslaw

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amslaw
  • Law Student

Hi!

I'll drop some info about me, considering law school is different for everyone. I'm a cis-woman, white, and entered law school at 25. So please take my answers with a grain of salt. My experience might not be the same for someone with different identities than me. 

Now onto the more important information. I don't see a lot of 1L representation (meaning first year law student), so I figured i'd add my perspective into the mix. I volunteered with CLA and lived in Windsor for both fall and winter semesters. I'm also interested in social justice law, so my experience is limited to this. I'm not the best person to ask for commercial law but I can ask friends who are if there's a question related to that! Edit - I forgot to add that i'm in the single-jd program, so I can't speak to Dual since it really is a whole different program. 

Ask me anything, and i'll answer, within reason haha. I don't check here often but I will about once a week if there's questions. 

FAQ

What classes do we take? 

- They're all chosen for you. You take Contracts, Constitutional, Property, Criminal (the core 4), and Indigenous Legal Orders/Access to Justice fall/winter semester. You're assigned to a section with approximately 60 students. You take those classes with those 60 students. It's like high school. 

How are the classes different than other schools?

- Windsor 1L's don't take Torts first year because of its interest in access to justice/social justice. They've replaced it with ILO/A2J. Typically, other school's don't have these courses, and thus their 1L's take Torts first year. 

What if I want to work in Toronto/GTA?

- Firms don't really care about the location of your school (unless you're learning BC law and trying to work in Ontario, which might be an issue). It's more about your goals, where you want to end up, and if you have a reasonable reason as to why you want to work at their firm. 

What about social justice experience?

- Windsor's great for social justice! When I say social justice, I mean something that could be interesting to someone who considered pursuing a master's in sociology, criminology, political science, etc. This could be research identifying the intersection of law and barriers to accessing justice. If this sounds interesting to you, Windsor has a great externship program and social justice fellowship program that's basically it's pride and joy! You'd apply for this during 1L. 

I've heard Windsor's scary, what's the vibe?

- Honestly, it grows on you. It's kind of intimidating at first, but you'll get used to it just like anywhere else. If you're scared, try to stay near the campus and avoid downtown. But that's a pretty extreme recommendation, since Windsor isn't really that bad! I promise! Also remember that it's the warmest city in Canada lol (trust me, google it)!

Hit me up with more questions below lol. I'm procrastinating hard. 

 

Edited by amslaw
Forgot to add that i'm in single JD.
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FlamingJohnn51

Hey, Thank  you for doing this as I was looking for someone who actually goes to Windsor to answer some questions! In regards to the comments made about Torts, when is that course taken then if not in the first year or is the course stated in your post an equivalent to Torts.

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15 hours ago, FlamingJohnn51 said:

Hey, Thank  you for doing this as I was looking for someone who actually goes to Windsor to answer some questions! In regards to the comments made about Torts, when is that course taken then if not in the first year or is the course stated in your post an equivalent to Torts.

The course stated in her post is Indigenous Legal Orders. It’s not torts. Torts is taken in second year. 

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BlockedQuebecois
  • Lawyer
20 hours ago, amslaw said:

Typically, other school's don't have these courses, and thus their 1L's take Torts first year. 

It's probably worth clarifying every school will have a course, and usually several courses, on Indigenous and/or Aboriginal law. They're just not compulsory first year courses. 

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CleanHands
  • Lawyer
2 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

It's probably worth clarifying every school will have a course, and usually several courses, on Indigenous and/or Aboriginal law. They're just not compulsory first year courses. 

"Indigenous Settler Legal Relations" and "Aboriginal and Treaty Rights" are, in fact, compulsory 1L courses at UBC.

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amslaw
  • Law Student

Sorry everyone! I should have been more clear. A warning, though - my knowledge about other schools is very limited. I want to say it's only a handful of Canadian school's that require Indigenous law classes, but don't quote me on that. If a school does, it's because they're trying to respect the TRC Calls to Action - meaning mandatory Indigenous law classes (CTA #28). 

Yes, Torts is a second year compulsory course. Personally, I love that Torts is bumped to second year. It makes 1L more bearable considering the typical "law" classes, meaning ones that require 20-90 pages of legal reading a week, are limited to only the core 4. ILO and A2J require less dense readings. ILO, also, was a beautiful class that a lot of us found "centred" us during our week. Don't worry about it affecting your 1L job prospects - literally no one expects much from the 1L's already, lol, and the fact that you haven't taken Torts yet isn't what's going to make or break an application. 

Also, before I confuse someone regarding BC law being a make it or break it to practicing in Ontario - I should've added that that's just one example. It's not some inherent issue, it's just an example about how one's law school location might impact their job prospects. It can work inversely, and it can work for just about any other province/territory out there. 

 

 

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FlamingJohnn51
5 hours ago, amslaw said:

Don't worry about it affecting your 1L job prospects - literally no one expects much from the 1L's already, lol, and the fact that you haven't taken Torts yet isn't what's going to make or break an application. 

 

 

 

Have you been able to get a 1L position yet and if so how difficult was the process? Thank you!

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amslaw
  • Law Student
4 hours ago, FlamingJohnn51 said:

Have you been able to get a 1L position yet and if so how difficult was the process? Thank you!

I have! But before I talk about it, let me preface with some context so you and anyone else reading this can better understand:

(1) There's a 1L recruit in January - meaning a formal "job fair" if you will, only hiring 1L's. The pay this year was $1900/week, the firms are in Toronto, and it's open to every 1L to apply. These jobs are typically limited to commercial law - for example, IP, and sometimes criminal law or employment law related. Note - I didn't pay much attention to the 1L recruit, so if there's reading this that can add more info/can correct a mistake, that would be great! However I do know that it's extremely, extremely competitive. You're going up against people with Master's degrees, relevant work experience, and/or networked their way into having a competitive edge. They also expect amazing interview skills. It's difficult to get a position from this recruit, but I know people who have! An upper year worked at Denton's for his 1L summer, for example. I can't say the exact rates of success with the 1L recruit, but I can definitely tell you many, many Windsor students get Bay street positions. I actually don't know an upper year who didn't have a 1L job in some form - but that could be because the upper-years who mentor/connect with the 1L's are just great students/people/interviewers in general lol. I don't think so, though! People trash on Windsor, but honestly, everyone I know here is impressive in their own way. 

(2) Windsor also has a Social Justice Fellowship that is open to Windsor 1L's for social justice related summer roles. 

(3) There's also just plain old networking, applying for jobs outside the 1L recruit, and cold e-mailing. I've had many friends find success with this route - most 1L's get a position this way. They're just as cool and rewarding as the roles from the 1L recruit. It's all about interviewing, networking, and going on those coffee chats lol. Find a mentor (100% use the peer-mentoring service!!! You're almost guaranteed to get an upper-year's notes and the awesome advice of someone who's been where you are). Also - almost every upper year here is SO sweet and willing to help if you just reach out. I've had multiple offer to work on my applications with me. And I know some who've sat with 1L's and did mock interviews with them for legit hours. 

Personally, I didn't participate in the 1L recruit because these positions were not aligning with my interests. I'm still deciding, but I know that criminal, employment, and commercial aren't for me. I also didn't participate in the Social Justice Fellowship applications, even though I should have, lol. Unfortunately, I was too overwhelmed with other applications, school, and life, to do so. My advice is to start researching firms in the Fall semester and write those cover letters during the holiday break. I received my summer position because of the fact that I volunteered with CLA (Community Legal Aid) during the fall and winter semesters. The fact that I volunteered with CLA for both the Fall and Winter semesters really made me stand out, but it helps that my grades were above the average in every class. 

My advice is this - volunteer as soon as you get to school. I'm not talking being the 1L rep of a club, i'm talking something that gives you practical legal skills (but being the 1L rep is still great, but don't do this alone and expect to be distinct from your peers!). Also, i'm not involved in any clubs at the moment, but I heard they don't expect much from you. If you're coming from a school like Queen's or McMaster, where i've heard their clubs are "legit," then you may be disappointed with the experience you get from these clubs. BUT that isn't to say all are like this! Some offer great experience, like the SLS or PBSC (PBSC would be great if you want something less demanding than CLA).  

A good place to start would be CLA (advice specific to Windsor). It's an amazing learning opportunity and it puts a lot of responsibility in your lap. The application for 2021 opened in August, if I remember correctly - it's on their website. You learn legal skills, hearing prep, and the clients are yours, not the Review Counsel's. The hours per week varies depending on the matter you're overseeing, but it ranges from 2-10 hours/week. It's important to apply in Fall instead of the Winter semester because the competition for a position is much less. In Fall, people are afraid of taking on too much responsibility. By Winter, people start to realize law school isn't so difficult and they're hungry for experience that'll set them apart during the summer job search. I've had many friends who didn't get a position in Winter even though they were more qualified than I was, the competition was seriously that rough (or, as I suspect, they just picked students at random b/c they're all equally able to do the job lol). 

Not specific to Windsor, apply to any legal clinic at your school (I believe Queen's has 5, but i've heard they don't give you as much responsibility and thus as much experience than Windsor's CLA - but i've only heard that through word of mouth so I can't confirm or deny). Don't be afraid of the responsibility, or even afraid of failing in the role. Trust me, they don't expect much of 1L's and everyone is told their work needs fixing by Review Counsel at one time or another. You'll be good as long as you try and learn from your mistakes! Law school isn't as hard as you think it will be, and you'll pick it up fast. Plus, you'll make friends, and hopefully form a study group where you share notes and take the burden of studying off of each other's shoulders (this is legit the only reason I did as well as I did in Fall lol).  

Edited by amslaw
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amslaw
  • Law Student
On 3/25/2022 at 4:52 PM, amslaw said:

How are the classes different than other schools?

- Windsor 1L's don't take Torts first year because of its interest in access to justice/social justice. They've replaced it with ILO/A2J. Typically, other school's don't have these courses, and thus their 1L's take Torts first year. 

 

Also I want to add that Windsor has tutorials for the core 4 courses - Property, Constitutional, Criminal, and Contracts. These are like undergrad tutorials/seminars. About 4 times a semester, an upper year student reviews the cases and theories you learned in that specific class and you have time to ask questions if you didn't understand. This is helpful because it essentially gives you your lecture notes, tutorial notes, and reading notes to make your study outlines. I've heard this isn't a given in all law schools, meaning some don't have them. This is weird to me because these tutorials can be essential to my learning (for example, I realize I missed the point of a case and the professor didn't do a good job of explaining it lol) and you get great advice from the upper year who's leading them beyond the class review, re law school in general, job applications, specific professors, etc. 

Edited by amslaw
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Fruitdealer
  • Lawyer
36 minutes ago, amslaw said:

I can't say the exact rates of success with the 1L recruit, but I can definitely tell you many, many Windsor students get Bay street positions. I actually don't know an upper year who didn't have a 1L job in some form - but that could be because the upper-years who mentor/connect with the 1L's are just great students/people/interviewers in general lol. I don't think so, though! People trash on Windsor, but honestly, everyone I know here is impressive in their own way

Only 4 students from Windsor got a 1L recruit job for 2021. That isn't actually that bad and is pretty inline with the non UofT/Osgoode schools, but I wouldn't oversell the chances of getting a job through the 1L recruit (for any school really). Note that 4 students getting a job in the 1L recruit is a significantly better than normal performance with an average of 2 students from Windsor snagging a 1L recruit job each year. https://ultravires.ca/2021/09/toronto-summer-2021-1l-recruitment-results/

Windsor also had 18% of their 2L class get jobs through the 2L recruit for 2022. https://ultravires.ca/2021/11/toronto-summer-2022-2l-recruit-numbers/

Interpret the numbers however you want, just putting it out there.

Edited by Fruitdealer
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amslaw
  • Law Student
1 minute ago, Fruitdealer said:

Only 4 students from Windsor got a 1L recruit job for 2021. That isn't actually that bad and is pretty inline with the non UofT/Osgoode schools, but I wouldn't oversell the chances of getting a job through the 1L recruit (for any school really). https://ultravires.ca/2021/09/toronto-summer-2021-1l-recruitment-results/

Windsor also had 18% of their 2L class get jobs through the 2L recruit for 2022. https://ultravires.ca/2021/11/toronto-summer-2022-2l-recruit-numbers/

Interpret the numbers however you want, just putting it out there.

Thank you! They must have gotten their positions through other routes. This just emphasizes that the 1L recruit sucks lol, but you shouldn't give up after like so many students do! Keep applying! 

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FlamingJohnn51
12 hours ago, amslaw said:

I have! But before I talk about it, let me preface with some context so you and anyone else reading this can better understand:

 

Wow, thank you so much for such a length and in depth response that was quite informative, I am looking that even going to Windsor as long as I put in the hard work my job prospects are never hindered. Again Thank You, I learned quite a lot from your response!

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amslaw
  • Law Student
1 hour ago, FlamingJohnn51 said:

Wow, thank you so much for such a length and in depth response that was quite informative, I am looking that even going to Windsor as long as I put in the hard work my job prospects are never hindered. Again Thank You, I learned quite a lot from your response!

You're absolutely welcome! Good luck next year 🙂

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TangoMango
  • Law Student
19 hours ago, FlamingJohnn51 said:

Have you been able to get a 1L position yet and if so how difficult was the process? Thank you!

As others have said obtaining a 1L position can be tough. Community Legal Aid hires 1Ls occasionally in the summer positions if you did CLA in your first year. There are also some RA positions that go to 1Ls as well. I wouldn't count on getting a 1L position though. Just my 2 cents as a 3L at Windsor. I didn't know too many people with 1L positions. Many who got them had previous connections. 

If you're attending Windsor I'd highly recommend volunteering with CLA at some point. It's a good way to dip your toes in. That being said be prepared to dedicate a good amount of time and effort to it. 

Also your grades are important. They open doors if you've done well imo. 

Edited by TangoMango
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FlamingJohnn51
11 minutes ago, TangoMango said:

I wouldn't count on getting a 1L position though. Just my 2 cents as a 3L at Windsor. I didn't know too many people with 1L positions. Many who got them had previous connections.  

Where you able to get a 1L or 2L position and no have a job lined up after Grad?

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amslaw
  • Law Student
1 hour ago, TangoMango said:

As others have said obtaining a 1L position can be tough. Community Legal Aid hires 1Ls occasionally in the summer positions if you did CLA in your first year. There are also some RA positions that go to 1Ls as well. I wouldn't count on getting a 1L position though. Just my 2 cents as a 3L at Windsor. I didn't know too many people with 1L positions. Many who got them had previous connections. 

If you're attending Windsor I'd highly recommend volunteering with CLA at some point. It's a good way to dip your toes in. That being said be prepared to dedicate a good amount of time and effort to it. 

Also your grades are important. They open doors if you've done well imo. 

I'll also add that both CLA and Legal Aid Windsor (LAW) had 10 student positions available for the summer - but you needed CLA experience. I don't suspect many 2L's apply for these considering they have a much bigger, more formal recruit, so I assume it'll be mostly 1L's in the applicant pool and they won't need to compete against 2L's. 

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TangoMango
  • Law Student
17 hours ago, FlamingJohnn51 said:

Where you able to get a 1L or 2L position and no have a job lined up after Grad?

Hey so I didn't have a 1L position but I also didn't look for one. I had a 2L position as an RA but I also didn't really participate in the 2L recruit. I do know a number of people who did get 2L positions. 

I currently don't have articling but I have had and continue to have many interviews. Honestly, as long as you do well grades wise you'll be okay. Most of my friends have articling even some whose grades aren't stellar. Grades aren't everything but they do matter and I can't stress that enough. A good work history will help as well. Making connections and networking is also important. Don't be afraid to start picking up the phone and sending emails. 

16 hours ago, amslaw said:

I'll also add that both CLA and Legal Aid Windsor (LAW) had 10 student positions available for the summer - but you needed CLA experience. I don't suspect many 2L's apply for these considering they have a much bigger, more formal recruit, so I assume it'll be mostly 1L's in the applicant pool and they won't need to compete against 2L's. 

This isn't necessarily true. I believe all the group leaders this year who summered last summer are 3Ls. It's a good option for summering in 2L if you don't obtain anything in the recruit. 

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amslaw
  • Law Student
3 hours ago, TangoMango said:

This isn't necessarily true. I believe all the group leaders this year who summered last summer are 3Ls. It's a good option for summering in 2L if you don't obtain anything in the recruit. 

Just wanted to fact check here - checked the website and out of 10 summer students, 6 were summering during their 1L summer. It's a good opportunity for 2L's but is predominantly staffed by 1L's, at least last summer. 

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LabsFollow
  • Law Student
On 3/26/2022 at 7:25 PM, FlamingJohnn51 said:

Have you been able to get a 1L position yet and if so how difficult was the process? Thank you!

I can't speak for all Windsor students, just the people I talk to. For me it seems that most of the people who really wanted 1l summer jobs and put in the painstaking effort of applying broadly, did land something law-related for the summer. I was able to get a 1L summer position, but it was difficult. 

BTW I'm not talking about the 1L recruit, just summer student jobs generally

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amslaw
  • Law Student
On 3/30/2022 at 8:12 PM, ThigmotropicTendrils said:

I can't speak for all Windsor students, just the people I talk to. For me it seems that most of the people who really wanted 1l summer jobs and put in the painstaking effort of applying broadly, did land something law-related for the summer. I was able to get a 1L summer position, but it was difficult. 

BTW I'm not talking about the 1L recruit, just summer student jobs generally

I second this. Also talking about summer jobs generally and not the 1L recruit. 

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  • 1 year later...
law1029384756

Hi! Thank you so much for all the insight. I'm wondering if you could share what a typical class schedule would look like for 1L. Is there a certain time that classes are finished by every night and are there any days off? (I know TMU has Fridays off so just wondering if it would be worth going home on weekends since I live pretty far!) Thank you so much in advance!

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