Any advice for students interested in pursuing a Crown career?

[Gamgee]

Hi All,

I'll be starting law school in the fall and I've been considering what kind of law I would be interested in practicing in the future. The idea of Crown work (specifically criminal, but also open to other types I'm unaware of) stands out for me and hoping to solicit some advice from people who are Crowns or have articled/worked in the field. Some questions below but also just interested in general thoughts/advice!

• What courses did you take in law school that you feel are important? 
• Any extracurriculars or activities you would recommend? 
• Are there crown summer student roles and what is the timeline like for articling? 
• How competitive is the process, compared to other paths (i.e. big law)?
• What's a day in the life like, how is work-life balance? 
• And anything unexpected or you wish you knew when starting law school? 

Appreciate any feedback received! Thank you 🙂

 

[Gamgee]

@Ryn @TobyFlenderson @ZineZ Realized after posting this may be better in the Ask a Lawyer section, will let you all decide, thanks!

[Ryn]

6 minutes ago, RUIQ said:

@Ryn @TobyFlenderson @ZineZ Realized after posting this may be better in the Ask a Lawyer section, will let you all decide, thanks!

Moved 🙂

[CleanHands]

3 hours ago, RUIQ said:

What courses did you take in law school that you feel are important? 

• Ad crim pro - All of this is useful for obvious reasons. In particular the bail content helped me hit the ground running and I needed to apply it right away--grounds for detention, the ladder principle, etc. But it's all good and 1L crim focuses on substantive law so you won't learn this stuff in mandatory courses if whatever program you go to was the same as mine.
• Evidence - So much good stuff here. The W(D) analysis, expert witness qualification, self-incrimination, the Grant s.24(2) Charter exclusion analysis, etc.
• Sentencing - If your school offers a specific class on this it's a vitally important area that's neglected in other criminal law courses. It can have just as much impact on an accused person as whether they are actually convicted and there is way more room for argument here in cases than I ever would have expected so it's good to be equipped for such arguments.

I took a ton of specialized criminal law courses and nothing else on my transcript came close to being as useful as those above--they are must haves.

With that said, another personal pet cause of mine and something I'd recommend taking some sort of coursework or volunteering in if possible is anything related to wrongful convictions. This is not so much in order to learn substantive or procedural law as to have an awareness of this issue and real-life horror stories that can stay with you as a reminder of the seriousness of the work you do and the decisions you make, and the importance of ensuring you get things right.

3 hours ago, RUIQ said:

Any extracurriculars or activities you would recommend?

Anything criminal is good but specifically court experience will help you. That's going to be a "get thrown into the deep end and learn to swim" moment sooner or later so you might as well look like an idiot, botch court etiquette and (if you're lucky) run an ugly trial while you are still a student so all parties concerned understand and\you aren't looking bad at work or representing your organization and making them look bad by association.

Anyways, crim law volunteering will demonstrate interest and some basic degree of applied knowledge and experience, which is a must to separate you from people just trying to secure any job.

3 hours ago, RUIQ said:

Are there crown summer student roles and what is the timeline like for articling? 

There are but the details vary provincially. For example, it's not uncommon for Alberta to hire even 1L summer students while that's not a thing the BC MAG does. Crown offices participate in the formal recruits and thus that would be what the schedule for interviews and hiring looks like.

Because this varies province-to-province a broad and general answer can't be given here.

3 hours ago, RUIQ said:

How competitive is the process, compared to other paths (i.e. big law)?

Any direct comparison is silly. Ultimately different positions are hiring based on different criteria (and Crown work and BigLaw are vastly different). There is not some ranked hierarchy of candidates where different jobs fit differently in the pecking order in some neat way. So don't concern yourself with this question as you framed it.

I will say this though:

• Crown hiring can be cyclical, given that it is dependent upon government budgeting. I can give you an answer as to how it looks today and it could be quite inaccurate by the time you are applying.
• Grades matter for Crown jobs, however relevant experience and strong interview/testing performance can offset this to an extent.

3 hours ago, RUIQ said:

What's a day in the life like, how is work-life balance?

This may vary based on province and office. As a student I have found the expectations low and work/life balance good. It has basically been a 9-5 job.

My experience has been weird due to COVID, with my work being research-oriented and without the usual degree of court experience. As with the above answers though, I don't think a general "day in the life" would be too helpful as different provinces have different programs in place for training and work assigned to students.

3 hours ago, RUIQ said:

And anything unexpected or you wish you knew when starting law school?

I have been very surprised by two things about criminal law and Crown work:

• 1) How loosey-goosey and informal the criminal law process tends to be.
  
  See above re: what I wrote about sentencing. The subject matter of this work deeply affects the lives of victims, accused people and society at large. And yet it feels very slapdash much of the time. My Crown mentor told me that he believed that of all areas of law, outcomes in criminal law are most determinant of the values and outlook of the judges and lawyers involved, and I'm inclined to believe that. The principle of parity is supposed to be a principle of sentencing and the principle of proportionality is supposed to be the fundamental principle of sentencing. However this has not been my experience of the realities of criminal law. There is a lot of unfairness and even randomness involved.
   
• 2) Related to the above: how much power and discretion individual Crowns have.
  
  This blew my mind when I started out doing defence work, especially when dealing with (what I perceived to be) an unreasonable Crown who wouldn't budge on what I felt was a common sense point. Working on the Crown side helped this make far more sense to me, because I came to realize that if you have 5 Crowns look at a file you'll get 5 different opinions about what to do with it. Ultimately someone needs to be given conduct of the file and has to make calls on it, and this can't be done by committee purely for efficiency reasons. Crown work did only reinforce my perception of Crown discretion though; from what I've seen the higher ups are incredibly hands off and Crowns basically get to do what they want within reason.

Edited June 6, 2021 by CleanHands

[Gamgee]

1 hour ago, CleanHands said:

 

 

Thank you so much for the incredibly detailed response! It's given me a lot to think about, and the point about wrongful conviction work to understand the gravity of the work makes a lot of sense. I'll be studying in BC and hope to work in the province in the future, your points on BC and how there's differences between provinces is helpful & greatly appreciated!

[CleanHands]

5 minutes ago, RUIQ said:

Thank you so much for the incredibly detailed response! It's given me a lot to think about, and the point about wrongful conviction work to understand the gravity of the work makes a lot of sense. I'll be studying in BC and hope to work in the province in the future, your points on BC and how there's differences between provinces is helpful & greatly appreciated!

No worries. Your OP motivated me to create an account here, for what it's worth. I can't decide whether to thank you for that or not. haha 

BC MAG hires a few 2L summer students but that's for the Legal Services Branch doing civil stuff. They hire their Crown criminal articling students during 2L summers (actually in terms of the timeline, someone I know who is heading into 3L next fall received an offer for that yesterday). So something like a DOJ or crim defence summer job in the summers would be worth considering if you want to gain relevant experience to make you a strong candidate and build up relevant knowledge. I also know someone who summered with the AB Crown then articled with the BC MAG (again since AB actually hires Crown criminal summer students, and they have separate competitions for summer students and articling students rather than automatic hirebacks, so there is no obligation to stick around).

[Gamgee]

Haha, for what it's worth I'm thankful you've made an account & happy I played a part in it 😋

That's good to know, would be open to move around provinces to get relevant experience. Otherwise, I would assume getting a crim defence summer job would be better than a BC MAG summer role doing civil stuff, since it's more relevant experience? 

[CleanHands]

Just now, RUIQ said:

Haha, for what it's worth I'm thankful you've made an account & happy I played a part in it 😋

That's good to know, would be open to move around provinces to get relevant experience. Otherwise, I would assume getting a crim defence summer job would be better than a BC MAG summer role doing civil stuff, since it's more relevant experience? 

I'm sure either one of those would look good on a resume and help you get hired, but yeah, a crim defence job would definitely be more directly relevant.

Beyond that, there's a not uncommon perception in this field that defence-trained Crowns are a good thing, that the best criminal lawyers are capable of doing Crown or defence work, and that it's ideal for a criminal lawyer to do both in their career if possible to become more well-rounded, understand the roles better, and develop some empathy for the thought process and interests involved in the other role (which in turn makes one more persuasive in negotiations, etc). I'd definitely recommend trying on both hats.

[Gamgee]

2 minutes ago, CleanHands said:

I'm sure either one of those would look good on a resume and help you get hired, but yeah, a crim defence job would definitely be more directly relevant.

Beyond that, there's a not uncommon perception in this field that defence-trained Crowns are a good thing, that the best criminal lawyers are capable of doing Crown or defence work, and that it's ideal for a criminal lawyer to do both in their career if possible to become more well-rounded, understand the roles better, and develop some empathy for the thought process and interests involved in the other role (which in turn makes one more persuasive in negotiations, etc). I'd definitely recommend trying on both hats.

That makes a lot of sense, thanks again @CleanHands!

[Hegdis]

CleanHands covered a bunch of stuff, so my scattered random bits are just sprinkles on the cake...

Most of the people you prosecute will come from some kind of poverty, trauma, or addiction. It's far too easy for our privileged asses to look down on accused people from a great height. So one of the best things you can do is get involved in your community to work with people who deal with these issues so you can see them as people first and appreciate their struggles from a human perspective. Make it a habit to volunteer weekly at a soup kitchen or a food bank, or help newly immigrated families integrate into Canadian society, or  check out the John Howard Society. There's a lot of places that need help and support and none of them are going to send you an engraved invitation: you need to do this on your own.

It's a win/win/win. You're actually assisting people, you're learning about real struggles that you might have never imagined, and once you get to the lofty position of lawyer you'll carry that knowledge with you.

In my opinion the worst Crowns tend to be those who came from privilege and have been Crowns their whole career without ever stepping outside of their comfortable bubble. Crown work should be hard - you should see the human faces in every file. Set yourself up to do that and you'll be better for it, and so will our justice system.

[PCCL]

I was a crown articling student in a small city in central/northern BC, so I don't imagine my experiences generalize very well, but if that's something you're interested in let me know and I'll write something up

[Gamgee]

Thanks @Hegdis, will try to follow that advice and find those opportunities. Especially with lockdowns & limited social interaction, recognizing I've been even more isolated from everything (privileged). 

30 minutes ago, PCCL said:

I was a crown articling student in a small city in central/northern BC, so I don't imagine my experiences generalize very well, but if that's something you're interested in let me know and I'll write something up

That would be great @PCCL, I'm definitely open to the possibility of relocating in the future and would greatly value your experiences/perspective, thank you!

[razraini]

I think CleanHands and Hegdis have nailed most of it. But I'll throw my hat in the ring too. I prosecute in a rural office. Probably 99.9% of the defendants are Indigenous. The degree of violence out here borders on cartoonish. Somewhere in between The Wire x Fargo x a Cormac McCarthy novel.

• What courses did you take in law school that you feel are important? 

Evidence although bear in mind that evidence as a course is primarily concerned with admissibility. Evidence at a garden variety provincial court trial is generally concerned with weight. As well, any courses related to the Charter vis-a-vis criminal law, advocacy (I think this is usually required), etc.

I also thought it was important beefing up on any "soft" courses related to Indigenous peoples Depending on where you are, they are the people(s) you will probably be running in to the most. Having some idea about the history, laws, sociology, etc of these peoples as a category is probably a good idea... As well, I wish I had taken a course in the history of the courts (my law school offered that). 

Also admin law. If you are a provincial prosecutor, you will, in all likelihood, do at least some prosecuting under provincial regulatory statutes. I mean, really, any courses (statutory interpretation or legislative drafting) that force you to screw your ass to a seat and actually read legislation word-for-word will be of benefit. In the past few years, Parliament has made significant changes to the Criminal Code. A lot of what I am arguing about in court these days is what the wording of these changes even means in a given case.

• Any extracurriculars or activities you would recommend? 

Anything that gets you speaking in open court. Moots can provide a good (great even, depending on your own talents or lack thereof) starter foundation for trial skills. But I don't think they compare to the real thing. Moots aren't really concerned with people or justice or even the law most of the time (but you'll sure know how to authenticate an exhibit). Melanie Surette of the Province of Sopinka is not going to melt down on you on the stand or in an anteroom. Clients and complainants certainly will. 

If I am ranting on about this, it's because I think law school and law students are weirdly fixated on moots. I placed in moots and also did actual trial work in law school. I have literally never been asked about my mooting experience. Not to say it wasn't valuable. It was. But I would speculate that there is a sense that moots are a safe haven and criminal lawyers value law students who are willing to repeatedly fall flat on their face in public and dust themselves off. It also teaches you the value of protecting the record early on.

Find volunteer work that puts you in contact with the marginalized. Whether it's in crim or immigration or w/e... Staying poised, respectful and professional when your client or witness is having a fight or flight response is a skill that is refined over time (at least it was for me). As Hegdis said, the people you prosecute are from some kind of poverty, trauma or addiction. But, with some frequency, so are the complainants. In a small office like mine, it is entirely normal for the complainant on one file to be the defendant on another.

Although certainly not required, a crim-related law review publication isn't a bad thing to pursue. YMMV in terms of its value on your resume. All of my employers have expressed interested in mine. More than that though, it gave me room to deepen my interest in and knowledge of areas of the law that I deal with on a daily basis.

• Are there crown summer student roles and what is the timeline like for articling? 

No idea.

• How competitive is the process, compared to other paths (i.e. big law)?

Again, no idea.

• What's a day in the life like, how is work-life balance? 

I work 75-80 hours a week as a baseline. Busier weeks can be 90-110 when I have trials. This is partly a function of working at an under-resourced regional office, and partly a function of my personality (I worked the same hours before law school, during law school and in articling). My view is that I owe it to the public (including the defendant) and the court to have some degree of mastery (or proficiency at least) of each matter I deal with. That takes me personally a lot of time to feel comfortable with each file I am dealing with.

This is not a prescription to work long hours. I am also not suggesting that working normal business hours somehow makes you less of a lawyer. There are plenty of prosecutors who work 9-5 and are perfectly good lawyers. I love what I do, I have few outside interests and I think I am somewhat less susceptible to burnout than some of my peers. I also have a solid routine that works for me and the fortune of marrying someone who respects what I do and is often herself still working when I get home late at night. 

• And anything unexpected or you wish you knew when starting law school? 

The trial process does not work like clockwork because trials only work if witnesses show up. Quite often, complainants and witnesses are never ever going to trust you as the prosecutor, particularly if they are Indigenous. They don't trust the prosecutor's office. They don't trust the Court. They don't trust the police. No amount of reaching out by you or victim services is going to fix that. They will never show up to court. Even if they have been violently raped, suffered brain damage or lost limbs.

And, of course, why should they? They aren't being defiant. The damage these institutions inflicted is still fresh. And, in a more immediate sense, your office might have put that complainant or witness in jail before. Or their friends or family. Or their alleged domestic abuser is also the breadwinner for the family. Or they just wanted the police to protect them but fear the prospect of putting their partner, sibling or friend in jail. I easily spend more time doing outreach to complainants and witnesses on serious files than I do actually examining them in court (assuming they show up at all). And maintaining a professional distance and balancing your disclosure obligations and managing witness expectations can feel a bit like spinning plates.

Finally, at least for me, being a prosecutor is sort of philosophically fraught. Maybe I am a bit cynical working in a small rural office where we see the same defendants and family names over and over and over...no sooner does a defendant finish a jail stint for a flight from police and BAM two weeks later they are back remanding for an agg aslt. Being a blunt instrument of Her Maj can feel a bit futile sometimes because you cannot prosecute the darkness out of the human heart let alone from broken families and communities. Sometimes my work gives a complainant closure and a community some reprieve. Other times putting a gang leader in jail just opens a power vacuum that someone even crazier is going to fill.

Edited June 7, 2021 by razraini

[Gamgee]

Thanks @razraini! You bring up a lot of great points and even more food for thought, the rural office perspective is greatly appreciated! I had not thought about the reluctance of even complainants to show up, in that context it makes sense.

[PCCL]

Yeah, I think razraini covers the small town experience really well and what I say would be likely redundant.

 

It's tough work, but can be very fulfilling.

[Vizslaw]

What school are you attending? Look out for the intensive programs and/or other opportunities like clerkships or legal aid clinic placements. There is a lot of good advice above. The only things I'd like to add is that you should remain open to the possibility that you could end up on the defence side for some time, and that's OK.

Take it from me - I went through law school determined to be Crown. I worked at a Crown's office (crim law policy branch) in 1L summer and interviewed at the regular Crown offices for 2L summer. I kept being told how great I was but that I was #2 on their list and they only had one position. The competition was intense because they are coveted positions with substantive, challenging interviews to get through. It was a gruelling spring of rejections. Then I ended up at a defence firm that summer and loved it. I decided not to bother with articling interviews at Crown offices again and stuck around the same firm for my articles. I was still disappointed not to be in a Crown's office, but I found the defence work stimulating and rewarding, and I liked the variety of meeting with clients, going to various courthouses, and dealing with everything in between.

It also always stuck with me that in a particularly intense Crown interview - after giving a solid answer about a Court of Appeal or SCC case I had to argue was wrongly decided, they asked me a nice softball question: Why do you want to be a Crown? My answer was something alone the lines of wanting to be part of something greater and protecting the public, the integrity of the judicial system, and to see justice done, in a way that only a self-righteous 2L student could answer... I told them I thought I could make a difference to people's everyday lives and protect those unable to do so themselves by being a Crown and that I had a strong moral compass and understood the difference between right and wrong. Then the cantankerous senior Crown just looked at me and said, aren't those all reasons to become a defence lawyer? I obviously didn't agree in the moment but it got me thinking later that he may have been right. I've been both a Crown and defence lawyer and I can't say he's wrong. I mean, he's not right either. That jerk.

My point is - it's OK to go into law school with the mindset that you want to be a Crown. But let your passions develop and see where it takes you. You could start at a defence firm like me, then spend several years doing Federal Prosecutions and then go back to defence work and shift away from criminal law to administrative and regulatory law. I know several lawyers who started on one side and then moved to the other after a few years of practice. It's more important you develop your advocacy and substantive law skills and then see where the opportunities take you. 

Happy to answer any questions you have but, until then, Good luck!

 

[Gamgee]

Thanks for the different perspective @Vizslaw, your point about keeping options open and not arbitrarily close off doors makes sense, at the moment I'm more naturally drawn to the crown work but of course I have no experience and it's likely I may change my mindset after going through law school. I'll be attending UVic, hoping to get a chance in 2L/3L to do the legal clinic there.  

Eager to just get involved in criminal law whether in a defence firm or prosecution and will keep an open mind!