Debt Vs income vs age? Jitters or reality?

[hiccups]

1 hour ago, Lulu_spector said:

… do you have children? Are you poor? Are you taking care of elderly parents? Are you the primary child raiser? I’m willing to bet NO. Must be nice to be able to leave and go anywhere for a cheaper school. You’d be great for tax law. 

What are you even talking about? The reason you are refusing to relocate is irrelevant. I am only making an observation that you are identifying problems that are unique to those who insist on living and going to law school in Toronto, because it's an expensive place with expensive schools. 

You wanted advice about how to make it financially feasible, and people are chiming in with advice. If you don't want to hear it, sure, whatever. As for all the other presumptions you made about me, I don't even care to rebut.

Not sure what the tax law comment is supposed to mean. 

Edited May 27, 2022 by hiccups

[Snax]

2 hours ago, Orbis said:

 

Assuming a hypothetical K-JD who finished undergrad at 22, law school at 25, and started practicing after articling at 26. That's 14 years away from 40. From a starting point of $0, $25,000 invested annually at 8% would yield over $653,000 by 40. If you can hit higher returns it only goes up from there.

It’s sorta been alluded to, but what salary figure are you working with here? 
 

I’m a k-jd working in corporate law (not a Bay Street salary, but relatively comparable), and there’s absolutely no way I can save over $2000/month in addition to rent, debt payments and general living expenses, despite me being the person you said and having a six-figure salary. My salary will go up in the coming years, but so will my expenses, as rent turns into a mortgage, kids come into the world, and I decide to splurge on some personal items that I want because I don’t want to live like I’m making a $25000 salary. 

[Lulu_spector]

1 hour ago, hiccups said:

What are you even talking about? The reason you are refusing to relocate is irrelevant. I am only making an observation that you are identifying problems that are unique to those who insist on living and going to law school in Toronto, because it's an expensive place with expensive schools. 

You wanted advice about how to make it financially feasible, and people are chiming in with advice. If you don't want to hear it, sure, whatever. As for all the other presumptions you made about me, I don't even care to rebut.

Not sure what the tax law comment is supposed to mean. 

How is it not obvious what I mean 😂 How or why do you think my reasons are irrelevant? So ridiculous. Context matters! Denying the details doesn’t mean irrelevance 😂 I can’t move to another province. Your ignorance of this reality is why I assumed you don’t have the same limitations that I do. Limitations which compel me to stay in the region. I got into all the schools I applied to, but even some of those within Ontario were too challenging with some of my demands. You’re implying I’m lazy or not pushing myself which is blatantly ignorant. The tax law comment is basically implying that since you are lacking empathy skills you might be great with numbers 😂 bad joke whatever. 

Edited May 27, 2022 by Lulu_spector

[BlockedQuebecois]

If you want people to keep being so kind and generous with their time towards you—and I don’t think it’s wrong to say people are being incredibly generous and gentle towards you—you should probably stop assuming everyone who tells you something you don’t want to hear is ignorant, or lacks empathy, or has no “actual lived experiences”, etc. 

Posts are forever on this forum. If you build up a reputation as someone who dismisses the lived experiences of others and attacks anybody who doesn’t simply cheerlead you, people are eventually going to stop engaging with you. 

Edited May 27, 2022 by BlockedQuebecois

[Whist]

You've been making a lot of assumptions throughout this thread - assuming people are calling you lazy, that most people in the legal sphere haven't "lived the struggle," etc. If you have to/want to go to school in a specific place, that's fine. People can't move or have to move for a variety of reasons. But being adamant on going to school in Toronto means you're going to get more comments weighed towards saying law school is a bad financial decision for you. That's not an attack on your character, it's just a reality. 

Personally, if my choice was go to the most expensive law schools in the country or not at all, I wouldn't have gone at all, and I have fewer familial obligations than you do. The fact that you're the primary caregiver for two elders plus a baby should be a consideration not just in terms of finances, but your time and wellbeing during and after school. To me, compounded on the potential debt burden, that's too many sacrifices to have to risk to make law school worth it. 

Edited May 28, 2022 by Whist

[hiccups]

14 minutes ago, Lulu_spector said:

How is it not obvious what I mean 😂 How or why do you think my reasons are irrelevant? So ridiculous. Context matters! Denying the details doesn’t mean irrelevance 😂 I can’t move to another province. Your ignorance of this reality is why I assumed you don’t have the same limitations that I do. Limitations which compel me to stay in the region. I got into all the schools I applied to, but even some of those within Ontario were too challenging with some of my demands. You’re implying I’m lazy or not pushing myself which is blatantly ignorant. The tax law comment is basically implying that since you are lacking empathy skills you might be great with numbers 😂 bad joke whatever. 

Look, your question was "Does it mathematically make sense to pursue law at 40?" and I said the financial obstacles you identified are unique to toronto. You didn't say you can't move or relocate due to family - and I wasn't going to go and make those assumptions about you. 

 

25 minutes ago, Lulu_spector said:

I can’t move to another province. Your ignorance of this reality is why I assumed you don’t have the same limitations that I do.

Oh so I'm ignorant for not knowing you can't recloate.  Not sure where the assumption came from.

28 minutes ago, Lulu_spector said:

You’re implying I’m lazy or not pushing myself which is blatantly ignorant.

I did not. You should honestly stop assuming stuff.  

29 minutes ago, Lulu_spector said:

The tax law comment is basically implying that since you are lacking empathy skills

Wow. I feel offended for my friends in tax law. You honestly couldn't be more wrong.  Why you are being so rude for? 

[Jaggers]

10 minutes ago, Whist said:

But refusing to relocate means you're going to get more comments weighed towards saying law school is a bad financial decision for you. That's not an attack on your character, it's just a reality. 

The OP actually said they planned to relocate to downtown Toronto.

[hiccups]

51 minutes ago, Jaggers said:

The OP actually said they planned to relocate to downtown Toronto.

This was what I thought too, she was so angry that I was unaware of the fact that she can just relocate that I actually went back to her original post and re-read it. I read it to mean that whichever school she picks - that is, if she decides to go to law school - she would have to relocate. 

Edited May 28, 2022 by hiccups

[Rashabon]

Going to U of T over Osgoode is already incurring something like $24-$27K in extra tuition alone over the three years. And unless you want to clerk for the SCC or go into big law, I don't see how the outcomes at U of T outweigh those at Osgoode.

 

EDIT: Although it could be TMU, in which case that's a better decision from a financial perspective.

Edited May 28, 2022 by Rashabon

[Ruthless4Life]

Whilst I can certainly understand the difficulties the OP is facing (and her practical concerns) I think that it is too often one comes and expect sympathetic responses though the reality is often cruel and even more difficult than can be imagined.

The reality (in my opinion anyway) is that in this day and age, the legal market is becoming incredibly competitive - and if faced with immense debt, only that person would know if it’s worth the risk.

[Lulu_spector]

3 hours ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

If you want people to keep being so kind and generous with their time towards you—and I don’t think it’s wrong to say people are being incredibly generous and gentle towards you—you should probably stop assuming everyone who tells you something you don’t want to hear is ignorant, or lacks empathy, or has no “actual lived experiences”, etc. 

Posts are forever on this forum. If you build up a reputation as someone who dismisses the lived experiences of others and attacks anybody who doesn’t simply cheerlead you, people are eventually going to stop engaging with you. 

Is this really how I’m coming across? Wow, I hope not. I showed attitude towards 1 person. I’m not looking for cheerleaders, i wanted actual wisdom. I sincerely appreciate the kindness from everyone. I’ve been thanking everyone through the “thanks” button here, and I would have responded to each person but I’m taking it all in. Not going to law school is a massive deal to me. I asked this today because I need to move soon and deep inside I know it’s not a good decision for me and I came here to see if it’s last minute jitters or sensible concerns. 

I’ve shown some attitude towards 1 replier but he/she wasn’t, or didn’t seem, to be coming from an empathic perspective. 1 replier said my reasons for not moving out of Ontario are irrelevant. That is dismissive. Now you’re taking my reaction to him as representative of being ungrateful to all? I don’t think this is a fair assessment. I’m very grateful for advice from those who are sincerely trying to help. I’ve gotten amazing advice from you, so thankful for it. I’m sorry if I was being dismissive, I guess I just feel alone. 

Edited May 28, 2022 by Lulu_spector

[GoBigOrGoHome]

7 hours ago, Lulu_spector said:

 This isn’t something I randomly chose. I have dealt with significant injustice and I despise how there is little to no lawyers in social and criminal justice with actual lived experiences. 

After reading this comment I am strongly going to advise against going (unless you won the lottery tomorrow).

There are many reasons and hopefully they come out clearly as I type this out on a bus on my way to the ferry. 

Income

The area of law you are interested in will not provide you the financial rewards that are going to offset the amount of debt you will have, income you need to barely survive let alone thrive. 

This is not the ticket to a better lifestyle that you think it is. Not with the amount of debt that you seem to be willing to choose to take on with the school you want to pursue. 

Burnout 

Like you, I have a unique lived experience that many don't have or understand. Including the professionals that work in that space (being broad). As noble as it is to want to give back and make a difference in a way that you wish you were treated, you will be emotionally ripped apart and spit out by the work. You will care more. You will give more of yourself. You won't charge people the money you should because you care. It will be hard to set boundaries. 

I got out of the specific area that I was impacted by a couple of years ago and realize that I was better off. It is better to volunteer my time to it instead of dedicating my life to it. In my current work, I sometimes get to touch on the old area and it brings so much joy. If I end up with a firm that actually allows probono once in a while, I want to take cases in that area. 

I have realized that to be effective I will need to help myself before I help others. Maybe I can get good, make enough to retire, and then volunteer to help Jason Gratl. 

------

There is definitely more but due to your professional goals, your school, and your family situation, you may even find yourself deciding whether you should declare bankruptcy in the future which will nuke your chances of practicing law.

 

Edited May 28, 2022 by GoBigOrGoHome

[Lulu_spector]

3 hours ago, Whist said:

You've been making a lot of assumptions throughout this thread - assuming people are calling you lazy, that most people in the legal sphere haven't "lived the struggle," etc. If you have to/want to go to school in a specific place, that's fine. People can't move or have to move for a variety of reasons. But being adamant on going to school in Toronto means you're going to get more comments weighed towards saying law school is a bad financial decision for you. That's not an attack on your character, it's just a reality. 

Personally, if my choice was go to the most expensive law schools in the country or not at all, I wouldn't have gone at all, and I have fewer familial obligations than you do. The fact that you're the primary caregiver for two elders plus a baby should be a consideration not just in terms of finances, but your time and wellbeing during and after school. To me, compounded on the potential debt burden, that's too many sacrifices to have to risk to make law school worth it. 

I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to come across like this. I thought I only directed my attitude towards 1 person because It seemed he/she was judging me (implying was lazy) without knowing details and saying my reasons for not moving out of Ontario are irrelevant.

Everyone else I’ve appreciated and have engaged in discussion and appreciate their advice so much. Including yourself, thank you for your perspective 🙂 

Edited May 28, 2022 by Lulu_spector

[Lulu_spector]

2 hours ago, hiccups said:

Look, your question was "Does it mathematically make sense to pursue law at 40?" and I said the financial obstacles you identified are unique to toronto. You didn't say you can't move or relocate due to family - and I wasn't going to go and make those assumptions about you. 

 

Oh so I'm ignorant for not knowing you can't recloate.  Not sure where the assumption came from.

I did not. You should honestly stop assuming stuff.  

Wow. I feel offended for my friends in tax law. You honestly couldn't be more wrong.  Why you are being so rude for? 

Your original reply seemed judgemental instead of what other people were doing which is giving genuine advice. So, I got defensive. You also said my reasons for not going out of Ontario are irrelevant. By saying my reasons are irrelevant, you’re saying my reasons don’t matter. What am I supposed to assume when you said my reasons are irrelevant? Anyway, it doesn’t matter, you and I are not having a discussion of understanding, so let’s just end it please. Thanks for commenting as you still did teach me something. Have a great weekend. 

2 hours ago, Ruthless4Life said:

Whilst I can certainly understand the difficulties the OP is facing (and her practical concerns) I think that it is too often one comes and expect sympathetic responses though the reality is often cruel and even more difficult than can be imagined.

The reality (in my opinion anyway) is that in this day and age, the legal market is becoming incredibly competitive - and if faced with immense debt, only that person would know if it’s worth the risk.

I appreciate this real talk. I know deep inside I shouldn’t go, but I think I came here to read 45 people say it.  So many in my life are saying the opposite so it’s just been so conflicting. Thank you for sharing your insight. 

[Lulu_spector]

36 minutes ago, GoBigOrGoHome said:

After reading this comment I am strongly going to advise against going (unless you won the lottery tomorrow).

There are many reasons and hopefully they come out clearly as I type this out on a bus on my way to the ferry. 

Income

The area of law you are interested in will not provide you the financial rewards that are going to offset the amount of debt you will have, income you need to barely survive let alone thrive. 

This is not the ticket to a better lifestyle that you think it is. Not with the amount of debt that you seem to be willing to choose to take on with the school you want to pursue. 

Burnout 

Like you, I have a unique lived experience that many don't have or understand. Including the professionals that work in that space (being broad). As noble as it is to want to give back and make a difference in a way that you wish you were treated, you will be emotionally ripped apart and spit out by the work. You will care more. You will give more of yourself. You won't charge people the money you should because you care. It will be hard to set boundaries. 

I got out of the specific area that I was impacted by a couple of years ago and realize that I was better off. It is better to volunteer my time to it instead of dedicating my life to it. In my current work, I sometimes get to touch on the old area and it brings so much joy. If I end up with a firm that actually allows probono once in a while, I want to take cases in that area. 

I have realized that to be effective I will need to help myself before I help others. Maybe I can get good, make enough to volunteer, and then volunteer to help Jason Gratl. 

------

There is definitely more but due to your professional goals, your school, and your family situation, you may even find yourself deciding whether you should declare bankruptcy in the future which will nuke your chances of practicing law.

 

Thank you so much for this 😭 Your wisdom is so useful! An organized and realistic perspective, worthy of printing and reading a few times. I came so far.. I think deep inside I knew I wasn’t going before I posted this, but it’s hard to walk away with all the work I’ve put in so I wanted people to remind me why it’s not a wise choice. You seem like an amazing person and lawyer. 

Edited May 28, 2022 by Lulu_spector

[ZineZ]

Alright, I'm going to step in here in a more formal capacity. I'm not interested in why there is sniping/"attitude" going on between users, but i'm going to ask that it stops here. OP has already committed to doing so, but I'll ask that it applies to anyone thinking of replying to them. 

And I'm going to highlight part of BQ's comment again. 

 

3 hours ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

Posts are forever on this forum. If you build up a reputation as someone who dismisses the lived experiences of others and attacks anybody who doesn’t simply cheerlead you, people are eventually going to stop engaging with you. 

 

[Lulu_spector]

10 hours ago, CleanHands said:

Amen. I would rather carry around $200k in debt until I die doing what I do now with the autonomy I'm afforded to do it, than spend the rest of my working life making the same salary with no debt while doing meaningless bullshit, having to cater to whims of any lunatic off the street, and being incessantly micromanaged by some asshole with an IQ of 85. No amount of "rational" financial analysis of this could change my mind at this point. lol

Wow very well put! From talking to you a few times you are such an intelligent human. I think whatever you’ve achieved is worth everything you’ve put in. Thank you for your guidance throughout this process. I won’t be going most likely, but your wisdom through the whole time I’ve been here has been so useful in the analysis. Lucky are those who have you as their mentor. 

[Lulu_spector]

8 hours ago, Orbis said:

It is relevant because how much of a nest egg you have by age 40 impacts how much leg work you have to do to get ready for retirement vs being able to relax a little and let compounding do its thing. 0 dollars can't compound into anything.

Oops i accidentally wrote “you get it” because as I was feeding baby I only saw “0 dollars can’t compound into anything” thinking that was a reply to your $500K comment 😂 I’m happy for you that you have great investments and prepared for retirement. The power of compound interest works better when one begins younger, but it’s never too late to invest. 

[Lulu_spector]

45 minutes ago, ZineZ said:

Alright, I'm going to step in here in a more formal capacity. I'm not interested in why there is sniping/"attitude" going on between users, but i'm going to ask that it stops here. OP has already committed to doing so, but I'll ask that it applies to anyone thinking of replying to them. 

And I'm going to highlight part of BQ's comment again. 

 

 

Sorry about that, I think I was emotional today and sensitive. I’m ending this massive journey, and it got more obvious as the day went on and I got defensive at times here. I appreciate this forum so much, it has really helped me. Grateful for all who have replied. 

[Psychometronic]

In your shoes, OP, I wouldn’t pursue law school. The long-term financial consequences are too great.

If it is at all possible to attend a school with lower tuition in a less expensive city, that would be a game-changer. I understand this might not be a viable option for you, but it will make a huge difference.

[Ruthless4Life]

6 hours ago, Lulu_spector said:

Sorry about that, I think I was emotional today and sensitive. I’m ending this massive journey, and it got more obvious as the day went on and I got defensive at times here. I appreciate this forum so much, it has really helped me. Grateful for all who have replied. 

Don’t make your decision based on the advice of people you don’t even know.  Talk to your family about it.  Get their views.

 

Then think again.  

[Lulu_spector]

3 hours ago, Ruthless4Life said:

Don’t make your decision based on the advice of people you don’t even know.  Talk to your family about it.  Get their views.

 

Then think again.  

I have, this isn’t based on here, it’s based on my contextual elements and so much analysis and spreadsheets. Family supports me but is aware of the financial burden it would cause which would only perpetuate poverty. Thank you so much for your help. 

Edited May 28, 2022 by Lulu_spector

[Lulu_spector]

5 hours ago, Psychometronic said:

In your shoes, OP, I wouldn’t pursue law school. The long-term financial consequences are too great.

If it is at all possible to attend a school with lower tuition in a less expensive city, that would be a game-changer. I understand this might not be a viable option for you, but it will make a huge difference.

Thank you so much. I appreciate your guidance here. This journey is over for now, and I knew it before posting but I think I needed you all to give me the courage to admit it one last time. So hard to walk away without talking about it 456 times. Thank you for commenting 🙂 

[fr00tl00ps]

Lots of good points here worth considering, but wanted to share my experience. I’m not 40, but I’m not a K-JD, either, and I entered law school with pretty significant debt and little income.

Whenever the cost of Toronto schools for potential students with high debt or low-income come up on this forum, I’m always really astounded how little people bring up needs-based bursaries— maybe they weren’t available to a lot of posters, maybe the amount of support has gone up since covid. I can only speak to my anecdotal experience, but as a low-income student without family resources, my bursaries and bursary top-ups from a Toronto school ended up totalling over 30k, and that doesn’t include the funding I was given to work an unpaid summer job in a niche area of law I’m interested in, which ended up in a (paid) articling position.

I was really on the fence about choosing the school I did, because of my finances and the tuition cost, but I don’t regret my choice in the least. It ended up costing me less than the more ‘economical’ schools I was also admitted to, and the networking opportunities were incredibly beneficial, I might say priceless. Housing is expensive, and it’s a gamble to assume you’ll find something affordable handy to a Toronto school (I was lucky to, although ‘affordable’ is a stretch), but rents in other cities are catching up pretty quickly (Halifax is a prime example). If had of chose Dalhousie over the school I did (without receiving financial assistance from Dal— I don’t know what their system is), I would have been worse off than I am now.

Anyways, highly suggest entering some information into u of t bursary calculator, if you haven’t yet. Most of the people I know who needed financial assistance have gotten a reasonable amount. Unfortunately, you don't really know how much you'll get until you are a student there, but over the course of three years, it hasn't ended up being an insignificant amount for a lot of people I know who receive them. Maybe other's experiences are different, but I wouldn't write off Toronto schools right away based on finances alone for that reason.

Edited May 28, 2022 by fr00tl00ps
typo

[Byzantine]

1 hour ago, fr00tl00ps said:

Lots of good points here worth considering, but wanted to share my experience. I’m not 40, but I’m not a K-JD, either, and I entered law school with pretty significant debt and little income.

Whenever the cost of Toronto schools for potential students with high debt or low-income come up on this forum, I’m always really astounded how little people bring up needs-based bursaries— maybe they weren’t available to a lot of posters, maybe the amount of support has gone up since covid. I can only speak to my anecdotal experience, but as a low-income student without family resources, my bursaries and bursary top-ups from a Toronto school ended up totalling over 30k, and that doesn’t include the funding I was given to work an unpaid summer job in a niche area of law I’m interested in, which ended up in a (paid) articling position.

I was really on the fence about choosing the school I did, because of my finances and the tuition cost, but I don’t regret my choice in the least. It ended up costing me less than the more ‘economical’ schools I was also admitted to, and the networking opportunities were incredibly beneficial, I might say priceless. Housing is expensive, and it’s a gamble to assume you’ll find something affordable handy to a Toronto school (I was lucky to, although ‘affordable’ is a stretch), but rents in other cities are catching up pretty quickly (Halifax is a prime example). If had of chose Dalhousie over the school I did (without receiving financial assistance from Dal— I don’t know what their system is), I would have been worse off than I am now.

Anyways, highly suggest entering some information into u of t bursary calculator, if you haven’t yet. Most of the people I know who needed financial assistance have gotten a reasonable amount. Unfortunately, you don't really know how much you'll get until you are a student there, but over the course of three years, it hasn't ended up being an insignificant amount for a lot of people I know who receive them. Maybe other's experiences are different, but I wouldn't write off Toronto schools right away based on finances alone for that reason.

I go to UBC so I’m not sure if my experience is relevant here, but I’ve also found needs based bursaries very generous. Paid for the majority of my tuition. Definitely look into what the university can offer you in terms of that and any scholarships/awards you may qualify for. If you do well in 1L they’ll be more on offer for scholarships going forward. Maybe call the school and tell them more about your situation and see what they have to say. 
 

UBC also has cheaper family housing on campus. Does UT offer anything like that? 
 

Also if your family situation doesn’t allow you to make a move for a cheaper school this year, could things potentially change on that front in the next couple years? If so you could always consider applying for cheaper schools in a couple cycles. 
 

Edit: I’m a decade younger than you with no dependents, but also has a lot of fears regarding the financial side of things before attending school. I’m more optimistic after 1L due to bursary funding and just really enjoying law school. YMMV though as I know Toronto expenses are a lot higher and you have a lot more people to support. If you really think you’ll graduate with 200k debt that would be very difficult to get out of especially if you’re more interested in the lower paying areas of law. 

Edited May 28, 2022 by Byzantine