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I will preface by saying this is a largely selfish question: Is there any strong reason I shouldn't go to law school?

I am currently studying for the LSAT, and will write it in October. I graduated ~5 years ago with business/finance degree and have spent the past 5 years working in commercial real estate. I had a desire to go into law school straight out of undergrad, but held off in order to explore what a "real-world" job was like. I am at a point where I would like to pursue a change in career, and given my prior (and current) interest in law, applying for law school makes sense to me. (For discussion purposes, let's assume I will be accepted into a law school here in Canada.) 

Apart from the previous iteration of this forum, I have yet to find an accurate or realistic representation of the legal market and/or profession in Canada. Most memes / subreddits / websites / etc. cater towards US or UK-based markets. To that end, I understand that the legal market for associates is strong given some figures being thrown around for individuals to lateral to competing firms. I also can appreciate that there may have been hiring freezes in place given COVID and as such, there may be a large number of recent law school graduates who are continuing to apply for entry-level positions. All in, (1) where is the job of a lawyer headed in Canada? Is it possible to be a lawyer and work 40-60hr weeks, or is 80-100 inevitable? Do these hours taper, or will I struggle to raise a family/kids in my 40s with the amount of time I spend at work? Is it possible to do so by transferring to an in-house counsel role? Will that compensation gap be marginal or quite large? Why do most law school graduates and/or recent lawyers loudly proclaim how much they do not enjoy their work? Is it a case of only hearing the most polarizing opinions on a topic?

I won't lie in saying that I have concerns and am torn between law school and business school. Some concerns are buried in the above questions while others are likely more philosophical / personal in nature. I currently have a solid salary, particularly given the amount of hours I work, and so the "allure" of making $150-$200k as an associate is not as enticing for myself as it may be for others, given how I am quite close to this income bracket as well. Another point I have to consider is rationalizing the opportunity cost of 3 years at law school vs. 1 year at business school, which is a relevant point for someone in my shoes.

I would appreciate hearing some outside opinions on the above.

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I did five years on Bay St and now work in house and make around $180-$200K most years, plus a good pension. I work mostly 40 hour weeks, and have for years now. I really enjoy my work and have never regretted going to law school. I worked for three years after undergrad, and had a decent career path open to me, but nothing that would be paying me $200K right now. Because growth in firm hourly rates are far outpacing salaries right now, a lot of big companies are expanding the size of their in house teams and doing more work in house.

Opportunity cost has to be considered, but going to school is way more fun than working, so you can't just count your full potential salary as opportunity cost. You're gaining a lot by not having to work!

I have a two year old now, and spend the morning with him, taking him to daycare before I start work (from home right now, obviously) and I quit working promptly at five so we can spend some time before, during and after dinner. If necessary (which is not most days) I can work a bit after he's sleeping.

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historicaladvantage
5 minutes ago, Jaggers said:

I did five years on Bay St and now work in house and make around $180-$200K most years, plus a good pension. I work mostly 40 hour weeks, and have for years now. I really enjoy my work and have never regretted going to law school. I worked for three years after undergrad, and had a decent career path open to me, but nothing that would be paying me $200K right now. Because growth in firm hourly rates are far outpacing salaries right now, a lot of big companies are expanding the size of their in house teams and doing more work in house.

Opportunity cost has to be considered, but going to school is way more fun than working, so you can't just count your full potential salary as opportunity cost. You're gaining a lot by not having to work!

I have a two year old now, and spend the morning with him, taking him to daycare before I start work (from home right now, obviously) and I quit working promptly at five so we can spend some time before, during and after dinner. If necessary (which is not most days) I can work a bit after he's sleeping.

Did you work as an associate at a firm prior to going in-house? What sector are you in? 

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historicaladvantage
8 minutes ago, Jaggers said:

Yes, it's literally the first seven words of my post 🙂 I do labour/employment law.

Whoops, lol. Sorry. Had a really long day. 

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CleanHands
  • Lawyer
3 hours ago, boo said:

Why do most law school graduates and/or recent lawyers loudly proclaim how much they do not enjoy their work?

Still early days for me but in my experience this very much depends on practice area, and I've read studies empirically validating my perception.

But it's clear to me from your OP that you aren't interested in the kind of law that people tend to be less miserable working in.

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Avatar Aang
  • Lawyer

Law school is probably not worth it for you if you are only doing it to pursue the corporate route and make money.

https://www.thecounselnetwork.com/in-house-counsel-compensation-and-career-survey/

https://www.ccca-accje.org/The-In-House-Edition/Archives/2020/2020-In-House-Counsel-Compensation-Survey-Average#:~:text=The survey found that the,in government or Crown corporations. 

The survey found that the national average base salary is $167,500, a 3% increase from 2018. 

If you are close to the 150-200k bracket, you will likely not be happy with a 150-200k in-house counsel salary after going to law school and working for a few years to get there. Biglaw salaries in Toronto start around 110k and most people leave within the first 5 years of their practice. 

I'm not sure what you mean about where lawyers are headed but people will always need lawyers. A machine can't do our work. If you graduate from a Canadian law school, you will be employed or employ yourself as you have a license to practice law. You may not like what you are doing, but you will be employed, and you will probably make an above average salary. 

Law is a client service profession. You need to be present to meet client demands which is why private firms require longer hours and have billable requirements. If you clock out at 5pm and don't check your emails again the next morning, your client may be in jail or have lost millions of dollars. If you want a work-life balance, you can typically find this in smaller towns, some public sector jobs, and solicitor government positions. If you go the corporate route, expect to put in the hours. 

Given the fact that you have a business degree and worked in commercial real estate for 5 years, the corporate world is not new to you. It should come as no surprise that most corporate lawyers do not find meaning in their work and are unhappy with the long hours. If you are only talking to corporate/Biglaw lawyers about how much they don't enjoy their work, then your perspective is going to be very skewed. I enjoy my work, have a good work-life balance, and make a decent salary, but I am not a corporate lawyer. 

What are your actual interests in law? If you said you wanted to do criminal law, human rights, or help society in some way, I'd tell you to go to law school and explore that path. But you seem fixated on Biglaw/in-house and making a high salary, in which case I don't recommend it. You've already paid your dues in your field to get to where you are now, so if you go to law school you will have to start at the beginning and put in all those long hours again for a lower starting salary. My advice is to only go to law school if you want to pursue a non-corporate path.

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PePeHalpert
  • Lawyer

Some people love being lawyers, some don't.  If you hate the work, the money isn't worth it.  I think this is particularly true for someone like you who is already making a nearly comparable salary.   If you love the work, the hours don't seem so terrible.  I think the only way you can really answer this question is to think deeply about what it is about the law that appeals to you.  Talk to a bunch of lawyers that practice in the area(s) you are drawn to and see what their day to day is like.  The big abstract concepts aren't nearly as important as the day to day reality. 

I practice in Biglaw in Toronto and in my experience, the hours ebb and flow.  I have very busy stretches that last several months where I am working 70+ hours, and then I have lulls where I have 40-60 hour per week months.   If you have a supportive partner or support network, raising a family is definitely possible because there is some flexibility around when you work those hours.  I have a toddler and I make it a priority to log off between 5:00 - 7:30 so I can do dinner time and bedtime as a family.  I do not get push back on that, ever.  It is very much respected, but your mileage may vary depending on the firm. 

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Rashabon
  • Lawyer
11 hours ago, historicaladvantage said:

(1) I am a graduate of Osgoode and have worked in a large full service firm outside of Bay Street. 60-90 hour weeks are the norm on Bay Street for the first 5-10 years of your career. After that, some partners work more, others work less. I haven't met too many partners on Bay Street working less than 50-60 hours a week. 

90 hour work weeks are definitely not the norm. There's also the conflation of billable vs. working hours. 40-50 billable hours and 60ish working hours are not unreasonable estimate during moderately busy stretches. As you go up in seniority and become more efficient, the gap narrows and work weeks can become shorter during regular or non-busy stretches.

11 hours ago, historicaladvantage said:

(2) Off Bay Street, the world is your oyster. For the first several years of your career you'll likely be working at least 60 hours a week regardless of where you go. Once your practice gets more established, it's definitely possible to work 40-60 hours a week, but most established associates and partners I've met off Bay Street work at least 50 hours a week. In-house positions at banks, startup companies, etc. can run from very chill to very demanding. 

(3) Hours taper eventually. It all depends on how established your practice is, what firm you practice at, and whether you have control over the files you take on or not. As a minion at the beginning of your career, most of your work is foisted onto you by higher ranking lawyers, so that can be very demanding. The more control you get, the better your hours get. Solo practitioners can often work less hours on legal work since they can entirely choose which work they take on, but they then have the challenges of marketing and their work in general takes longer because they have less people and less resources to help them. 

(4) Most lawyers I know in their 40s do fine raising their families. If you're the kind of person who's a perfectionist and workaholic though, it's definitely possible to get sucked into your work. So having perspective in your practice and knowing when to step away is key. 

(5) People in-house make a little less on average I'd say than lawyers working in firms but the lifestyle benefits and workload far outweighs the firm culture, in my opinion. Most associates end up leaving big firms for smaller practices, in-house positions and solo practice for this very reason. The financial trade-off isn't worth the emotional anguish, at least for a lot of people. It all depends on your personality. 

I can't speak for all law firms but in-house lawyers, except for the GCs of large public companies, generally make far less than firm counterparts, at least vis a vis Bay. Senior associates on Bay earn over 200K a year before bonus. Partners more. I think "a little less" in comparison to Bay is inaccurate. Small firm, sure, but then the lifestyle argument changes.

11 hours ago, historicaladvantage said:

(6) A lot of lawyers/students proclaim they do not enjoy their work for many reasons. The first being, law is hard. It's an incredible grind and involves a lot of paper pushing and bureaucratic box-checking, more than most non-legal professionals would imagine. It's not as glamorous as you would imagine. And the discrepancy between media image and reality for law students/new lawyers is quite stark.

Also, you have to realize that a lot of the people saying they do not like their work are people who haven't found the right fit yet or who work in big law firms. It's tough finding an area of the law that works for you as everyone is different, but most people eventually settle into their niche and have enjoyable careers.

Another major reason for the negative stigma associated with legal practice is our profession's culture. There is very little emphasis on mental health and professionals are peer pressured into billing absurd hours and providing over-the-top responsive client service. We're expected to be available for calls at a moment's notice, to reply to e-mails quickly and on the weekends, and often have to take a lot of heat from lawyers higher up in the hierarchy as well as our clients. Also, having your client's future in your hands (depending on the gravity of the file) is a lot of responsibility and that can be a lot for some people to handle. 

I think "there's very little emphasis on mental health" is a broad statement. Some firms are better at this than others.

11 hours ago, historicaladvantage said:

All in all I think the law is actually a good profession. It's not perfect and the culture certainly has drawbacks. You're definitely expected to hustle like crazy in the first 5-10 years of your career. But you also feel intellectually useful and like you're a valuable pillar of society. Lawyers, doctors, politicians, scientists, teachers (among others) are the professions that uphold society. It may be a lot of pressure, especially in the beginning, but that's because we're an important profession. A flawed profession, but a vital one nonetheless. And feeling important and useful in that way is a lot of gratification. 

 

 

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17 hours ago, Jaggers said:

I did five years on Bay St and now work in house and make around $180-$200K most years, plus a good pension. I work mostly 40 hour weeks, and have for years now. I really enjoy my work and have never regretted going to law school. I worked for three years after undergrad, and had a decent career path open to me, but nothing that would be paying me $200K right now. Because growth in firm hourly rates are far outpacing salaries right now, a lot of big companies are expanding the size of their in house teams and doing more work in house.

Opportunity cost has to be considered, but going to school is way more fun than working, so you can't just count your full potential salary as opportunity cost. You're gaining a lot by not having to work!

I have a two year old now, and spend the morning with him, taking him to daycare before I start work (from home right now, obviously) and I quit working promptly at five so we can spend some time before, during and after dinner. If necessary (which is not most days) I can work a bit after he's sleeping.

Thanks Jaggers. This post is fantastic and genuinely motivating / reassuring that this is a good career move for myself.

 

16 hours ago, historicaladvantage said:

(1) I am a graduate of Osgoode and have worked in a large full service firm outside of Bay Street. 60-90 hour weeks are the norm on Bay Street for the first 5-10 years of your career. After that, some partners work more, others work less. I haven't met too many partners on Bay Street working less than 50-60 hours a week. 

(2) Off Bay Street, the world is your oyster. For the first several years of your career you'll likely be working at least 60 hours a week regardless of where you go. Once your practice gets more established, it's definitely possible to work 40-60 hours a week, but most established associates and partners I've met off Bay Street work at least 50 hours a week. In-house positions at banks, startup companies, etc. can run from very chill to very demanding. 

(3) Hours taper eventually. It all depends on how established your practice is, what firm you practice at, and whether you have control over the files you take on or not. As a minion at the beginning of your career, most of your work is foisted onto you by higher ranking lawyers, so that can be very demanding. The more control you get, the better your hours get. Solo practitioners can often work less hours on legal work since they can entirely choose which work they take on, but they then have the challenges of marketing and their work in general takes longer because they have less people and less resources to help them. 

(4) Most lawyers I know in their 40s do fine raising their families. If you're the kind of person who's a perfectionist and workaholic though, it's definitely possible to get sucked into your work. So having perspective in your practice and knowing when to step away is key. 

(5) People in-house make a little less on average I'd say than lawyers working in firms but the lifestyle benefits and workload far outweighs the firm culture, in my opinion. Most associates end up leaving big firms for smaller practices, in-house positions and solo practice for this very reason. The financial trade-off isn't worth the emotional anguish, at least for a lot of people. It all depends on your personality. 

(6) A lot of lawyers/students proclaim they do not enjoy their work for many reasons. The first being, law is hard. It's an incredible grind and involves a lot of paper pushing and bureaucratic box-checking, more than most non-legal professionals would imagine. It's not as glamorous as you would imagine. And the discrepancy between media image and reality for law students/new lawyers is quite stark.

Also, you have to realize that a lot of the people saying they do not like their work are people who haven't found the right fit yet or who work in big law firms. It's tough finding an area of the law that works for you as everyone is different, but most people eventually settle into their niche and have enjoyable careers.

Another major reason for the negative stigma associated with legal practice is our profession's culture. There is very little emphasis on mental health and professionals are peer pressured into billing absurd hours and providing over-the-top responsive client service. We're expected to be available for calls at a moment's notice, to reply to e-mails quickly and on the weekends, and often have to take a lot of heat from lawyers higher up in the hierarchy as well as our clients. Also, having your client's future in your hands (depending on the gravity of the file) is a lot of responsibility and that can be a lot for some people to handle. 

All in all I think the law is actually a good profession. It's not perfect and the culture certainly has drawbacks. You're definitely expected to hustle like crazy in the first 5-10 years of your career. But you also feel intellectually useful and like you're a valuable pillar of society. Lawyers, doctors, politicians, scientists, teachers (among others) are the professions that uphold society. It may be a lot of pressure, especially in the beginning, but that's because we're an important profession. A flawed profession, but a vital one nonetheless. And feeling important and useful in that way is a lot of gratification. 

 

Thanks historicaladvantage, for the depth and breadth of response

16 hours ago, Avatar Aang said:

Law school is probably not worth it for you if you are only doing it to pursue the corporate route and make money.

https://www.thecounselnetwork.com/in-house-counsel-compensation-and-career-survey/

https://www.ccca-accje.org/The-In-House-Edition/Archives/2020/2020-In-House-Counsel-Compensation-Survey-Average#:~:text=The survey found that the,in government or Crown corporations. 

The survey found that the national average base salary is $167,500, a 3% increase from 2018. 

If you are close to the 150-200k bracket, you will likely not be happy with a 150-200k in-house counsel salary after going to law school and working for a few years to get there. Biglaw salaries in Toronto start around 110k and most people leave within the first 5 years of their practice. 

I'm not sure what you mean about where lawyers are headed but people will always need lawyers. A machine can't do our work. If you graduate from a Canadian law school, you will be employed or employ yourself as you have a license to practice law. You may not like what you are doing, but you will be employed, and you will probably make an above average salary. 

Law is a client service profession. You need to be present to meet client demands which is why private firms require longer hours and have billable requirements. If you clock out at 5pm and don't check your emails again the next morning, your client may be in jail or have lost millions of dollars. If you want a work-life balance, you can typically find this in smaller towns, some public sector jobs, and solicitor government positions. If you go the corporate route, expect to put in the hours. 

Given the fact that you have a business degree and worked in commercial real estate for 5 years, the corporate world is not new to you. It should come as no surprise that most corporate lawyers do not find meaning in their work and are unhappy with the long hours. If you are only talking to corporate/Biglaw lawyers about how much they don't enjoy their work, then your perspective is going to be very skewed. I enjoy my work, have a good work-life balance, and make a decent salary, but I am not a corporate lawyer. 

What are your actual interests in law? If you said you wanted to do criminal law, human rights, or help society in some way, I'd tell you to go to law school and explore that path. But you seem fixated on Biglaw/in-house and making a high salary, in which case I don't recommend it. You've already paid your dues in your field to get to where you are now, so if you go to law school you will have to start at the beginning and put in all those long hours again for a lower starting salary. My advice is to only go to law school if you want to pursue a non-corporate path.

Thanks Avatar Aang. Some of my responses / clarifications are below:

I am not interested in law school solely for the compensation facet, but I would be foolish to not consider how 3 years of my existing compensation would affect me and my career path if I were to maintain the course vs. spending that time pivoting into a different career path.

It was more about where the legal profession is headed, which some posters have alluded to (like billable hour expectations increasing). There are some industries and/or markets where people are optimistic about the future, and some where that is not the case. At the end of the day, most legal work is a cost to a business' operations and, as you say, a client service profession. Just trying to understand whether the future is bright for Canadian lawyers.

Agreed, and although I am sure that my resume might be attractive to a big / corporate law firm that does significant business in commercial real estate, I have led legal teams on behalf of my company and so I am familiar with their work / output, and generally am disinterested in such work.

Funnily enough, those 3 things are probably my top motivators to pursue a career in law. Criminal law and/or something with a humanitarian purpose (Crown prosecutor?). I likely should've divulged that in the opening post but I also wanted to keep the spectrum of responses quite broad. I am trying to stay open-minded with respect to different legal fields and to let my interests lead the way. That being said, it is hard not to consider going the commercial/corporate route and pursuing an investment banking / hedge fund / private equity role purely for compensation purposes (given the salary & bonus structures can easily swing into $300-$400 range). Obviously compensation of that order comes with high expectations (quality of work, hours, devotion to career, etc.), and it takes a certain person to succeed in those roles. Am I that type of person? Tough to say to be honest, I just don't know that answer.

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Avatar Aang
  • Lawyer

If you think you want to pursue traditional business jobs, you should consider an MBA. This is a difficult path with a law degree unless you graduate top of your class or work in Biglaw for a few years and lateral into that market. 

If you think you may want to pursue a non-corporate path, there are lots of opportunities to do that in law school. Just bear in mind that you will take a significant pay cut as the salary range for these positions is typically in the 60-120k range for lawyers. 

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historicaladvantage
5 minutes ago, boo said:

Thanks historicaladvantage, for the depth and breadth of response

My pleasure. 

Quote

 Just trying to understand whether the future is bright for Canadian lawyers.

I think it is, for the most part. To be frank, mental health is still a big problem. I think it would be silly to dispute that. Firms can institute as many health and wellness counsellors as they want, the reality is the mental health crisis in the legal profession stems from consistently unreasonable workload and client services expectations, not from a lack of mental health support availability. Putting this aside, though, law is a very stable industry that has only gotten busier as technology has become more complex and as the global health crisis continues to unfold. 

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