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MMA81

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MMA81
  • Lawyer

Hi folks,

looking for a ballpark response on whether the following is reasonable: 

I have just officially completed articles at a 3 lawyers firm in a central Alberta town. I was paid minimum wage for 40 hours a week through my year of articles. I rarely worked under 60 hours a week and I was not compensated or giving time off for these hours. I assumed “welcome to articling/the profession - it will get better”. I also genuinely love the experience and learning that I have accomplished from the 3 lawyers here, each with 20+ years post call experience. 

My firm has presented me with a 3 year offer without a wage increase til 2 years post call and a 3 year post call salary of 40K. There is no billable percentages included or offered.

I really didn’t expect to spend so much on school and make so little. Was I unrealistic on what a smaller town small firm would pay a lawyer or am I proper to hesitate in accepting this? 
 

thank you for your insights (even if y’all answer this ‘like lawyers’)

 

Edit to add: personally, it’s cost me more to buy a couple suits, pay for parking and my office expenses (printing, supplies etc.) on top of student loans than I made Articling but if I do not accept this non-negotiable offer, I will be moving back in my mom and dad….

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LMP
  • Law Student

How is this even a question? Obviously the pay is terrible. Obviously, the concept of paying for office expenses is ridiculous. Obviously, you should be looking for another job. 

What I'm missing here is how you got into this situation. Do you not have other employment options? Are you geographically locked to very town this firm is in? Do you owe some kind of blood debt to the lawyers at the firm? 

 I work at a small firm in a smallish town and the pay is magnitudes more (as a 1L student!) than what you're getting. Location and population size is not a good excuse.

And the offer is non-negotiable? Why is this the kind of place you'd even think about tying yourself to.

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Diplock
  • Lawyer

The compensation for articling wasn't necessarily terrible, depending on the nature of the practice, the experience provided, and their general good intentions towards you. But as a package for hireback it's incredibly bad. I don't know what your options are either, so it's hard to expand this to some advice about what you should do next. But whatever you do, unless this is literally the only option to feed yourself, go do something else.

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Whist
  • Law Student

I don’t have advice, but I’m absolutely gobsmacked your firm is asking to pay a (soon to be) called lawyer minimum wage for the next three years with a straight face. You can get better wages working for the goddamn post office with no degrees required. 

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AllRise
  • Law Student

I wasn't sure how to respond to this at first only because my initial reaction was outrage on your behalf, but after some thought: 

1. I concur with Diplock that the compensation for articling was likely acceptable depending on surrounding circumstances.

2. I also concur that the package for hireback is offensively low.

I would advise enthusiastically exploring other options, if it is feasible to relocate. I think it is perfectly acceptable to move back in with your parents while you are strategizing and searching for employment that will compensate you properly. I moved back in with my parents after university to save for my first down-payment, and have no regrets with that decision. 

I'm sorry that they offered you such a disappointing package, that must have been a let-down. 

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2 hours ago, MMA81 said:

Edit to add: personally, it’s cost me more to buy a couple suits, pay for parking and my office expenses (printing, supplies etc.) on top of student loans than I made Articling but if I do not accept this non-negotiable offer, I will be moving back in my mom and dad….

Yeah, I mean I would decline and look for something else. If you really need to take the job, I guess just work there until you figure out something better. But that's not remotely competitive compensation for a licensed lawyer, so I'm confident that you will figure out something better.  

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Diplock
  • Lawyer

I was going to write something based in the firm in question being likely the only game in a small town. But I deleted that thought and I'm suggesting this qualification to the OP's original point. If he's paying for parking (note - reading disclosure this way can sometimes lead to the most fascinating clues) his town isn't really small the way I'd ordinarily describe it. Not "only game in town" small. So maybe we need to redefine there.

Though regardless of how small or not-small the town, that's a shit hireback offer.

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Agree with everyone above.

My very first year out I made more than 40k, over fifteen years ago, and I was slogging it out in Vancouver's downtown east side in a legal aid practise representing petty mischief charges. Your firm may be wonderful but they are lowballing you to an extraordinary degree.

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Turtles
  • Law Student

Find a new job. McDonald's will pay you more money for fewer hours. And at least they'll throw in a side of fries. 

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If they're the only firm in a small town, they are probably going to have a difficult time finding associates willing to move there and build a practice there. So you aren't fully without bargaining power if you want to stay and push back on that offer. 

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Diplock
  • Lawyer
1 hour ago, hiccups said:

If they're the only firm in a small town, they are probably going to have a difficult time finding associates willing to move there and build a practice there. So you aren't fully without bargaining power if you want to stay and push back on that offer. 

I was going to make some points about small town practice myself, but again, I point you towards paying for parking. I wonder what we're talking about now. As in...Barrie? Or some equivalent in another province? I know small is relative, but I don't think there's any place where you pay for parking and there's only one law office in town.

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CleanHands
  • Lawyer
1 hour ago, hiccups said:

So you aren't fully without bargaining power if you want to stay and push back on that offer. 

Any firm willing to make that offer isn't one anyone should want to work for, given what it says about management there, even if one can negotiate something better. If one has to fight for something better than the (shocking) terms the OP outlined, they will have to continuously fight for countless little things that any reasonable employer would provide without a fuss.

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OntheVerge
  • Lawyer

I'll chime in with all of the above. It's one thing to accept low wages for articling because you're over a barrel; you need to article to get licensed and articling positions aren't always easy to get. So making sacrifices to get through articling so you can reach the goal of getting licensed as a practicing lawyer is one thing. But for a firm to offer you low wages as an associate AND for three years post-call?? That's ridiculous. What happens if they let you go after those three years? If your only other option really is to move home with your parents while you try to find a job, I'd do that. No way do you want to get locked in for three years post-call at a ridiculously low pay grade and be worried about making ends meet and all your other expenses.

Similar to what @Diplocksaid, how small a town are we talking? Central Alberta, so like Ponoka or smaller? I was hired by a small firm in a small town but even we have two other firms in similar practice areas, plus 3 more in towns within a 10 - 20 min drive away. My salary maybe wasn't as high as I wanted when I started, but I knew it was only for a year AND I could make it work without too much worry about expenses. You sound like you'll be losing money if you take this job, so what would be the point? Move home if you have to but look for other, better-paying jobs. 

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2 hours ago, CleanHands said:

Any firm willing to make that offer isn't one anyone should want to work for, given what it says about management there, even if one can negotiate something better. If one has to fight for something better than the (shocking) terms the OP outlined, they will have to continuously fight for countless little things that any reasonable employer would provide without a fuss.

I agree, just making a point about the options available if OP wants to stay in that town/city. After all, they already live there and relocating isn't an option that's always available.

2 hours ago, Diplock said:

I was going to make some points about small town practice myself, but again, I point you towards paying for parking. I wonder what we're talking about now. As in...Barrie? Or some equivalent in another province? I know small is relative, but I don't think there's any place where you pay for parking and there's only one law office in town.

wow that's true, I totally missed that the first time I read it. It's large enough of a town that there's paid parking. Maybe it's a small tourist town like Banff or Lake Louise? Even then there are more than one law office. 

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I typed a bunch of stuff but I realized everyone's situation is different. So I am just going to just say this:

No matter what, that is a shit offer. Advocate for yourself like you would for your client. The worst thing that can happen is you get fired or not hired back from a shit job. If you stay, it is only going to get worse. You are a licensed lawyer now. You deserve better. It is not going to be easy but whatever you find next is going to be better.

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Brisingr1502
  • Lawyer

Imagine spending so much time and money into going into law school, graduate and article and being proposed $13/hour. This is just outrageous. Even a small town law firm should be able to pay you way more than this, especially given the other lawyers each have more than 20 years of experience.

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Zarathustra
  • Lawyer

This is low even by rural Alberta standards. It's almost like they don't want to hire you back. You are better off starting a practice on your own. If you had some exposure to family or crim, then you can get on the Legal Aid Alberta Roster. It's not lucrative but you can definitely make more than 40K. 

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It is easy for me say this as I don’t have to worry about feeding myself, but this offer is so low I wouldn’t even bother countering. I would just politely decline the offer and start looking for a job elsewhere. 
 

A third year call salary of $40k is beyond terrible. 
 

Whatever you do, do not sign a three year contract with these people. If you have to keep working there, make sure you are free to quit as soon as you find something better. 

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epeeist
  • Lawyer

@MMA81 I'm not knowledgeable about Alberta or current salaries, but you should be.

Since everyone's advice is, understandably, not to take this, does it hurt to respond with a position based not just, you want more, but what the typical junior small town Alberta lawyer salary is?

I'm also reminded of the current thread about loyalty; don't sell 3 years of your life cheaply (considerations about termination provisions and notice and what's adequate not just for employer but for clients gets complicated so I'm calling it 3 years). Years ago while deciding what I wanted to do I took a lower-paying job that had a ridiculously long notice requirement (for a relatively low-paying job), and then another much better short-term job came along and the recruiter said something like "why are you doing that job you're so much more qualified" - but too bad, I was locked in.

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Mountebank
  • Lawyer

A fresh call sole practitioner could net $40k billing two hours a day. I get that the partners need to make money and may be lowballing in anticipation of a salary negotiation, but that offer is insulting.

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Diplock
  • Lawyer
2 hours ago, Mountebank said:

A fresh call sole practitioner could net $40k billing two hours a day. I get that the partners need to make money and may be lowballing in anticipation of a salary negotiation, but that offer is insulting.

Let's do the math, just for argument's sake. If we assume Legal Aid rates of $110/hour (true in Ontario - where we do a lot of unpaid time but the technical hourly rate isn't terrible) and 260 work days a year (a standard rule of thumb) that's $57,200/year gross. Assuming reasonable expenses...an office in chambers could go for $1,000 or perhaps considerably less in a small market. That's the major expense. The rest doesn't add up to a lot if you keep things modest. So, yeah, actually. Billing two hours a day on Legal Aid or else at a modest private rate basically does net you $40k in a year.

I don't know if you'd done the math or just got lucky or if your instincts are just that good. But that was pretty spot on, from my experiences as a sole.

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Mountebank
  • Lawyer
2 minutes ago, Diplock said:

Let's do the math, just for argument's sake. If we assume Legal Aid rates of $110/hour (true in Ontario - where we do a lot of unpaid time but the technical hourly rate isn't terrible) and 260 work days a year (a standard rule of thumb) that's $57,200/year gross. Assuming reasonable expenses...an office in chambers could go for $1,000 or perhaps considerably less in a small market. That's the major expense. The rest doesn't add up to a lot if you keep things modest. So, yeah, actually. Billing two hours a day on Legal Aid or else at a modest private rate basically does net you $40k in a year.

I don't know if you'd done the math or just got lucky or if your instincts are just that good. But that was pretty spot on, from my experiences as a sole.

A combination of the foregoing, I'd say.

But your post is a pretty good demonstration as to how out of touch that offer is.

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Lawstudents20202020
  • Lawyer

I'm surprised a fee split wasn't the offer. If it's a firm that can't take the financial risk of an associate that might not bill enough to justify their salary, to me a fee split makes more sense. 

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  • 3 weeks later...
PLTConequestion

I have some serious advice for you as I was in the exact same position as you.  Make a counter offer for higher pay and a shorter term.  Make sure you have their offer in writing.  I had a law office make me a job offer and then give me a bad reference.  If they give you a bad reference then but you have a job offer from them then you are in a much better position.  You MUST cover your ass here.

Go through negotiations but continue working this job until you find a new one.  You do need to build experience and it sounds like you're getting it here. The amount of damage they can do to your career at this point is incalculable.  Negotiate and swallow your pride for now.  

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BlockedQuebecois
  • Lawyer
1 hour ago, PLTConequestion said:

I have some serious advice for you as I was in the exact same position as you.  Make a counter offer for higher pay and a shorter term.  Make sure you have their offer in writing.  I had a law office make me a job offer and then give me a bad reference.  If they give you a bad reference then but you have a job offer from them then you are in a much better position.  You MUST cover your ass here.

Go through negotiations but continue working this job until you find a new one.  You do need to build experience and it sounds like you're getting it here. The amount of damage they can do to your career at this point is incalculable.  Negotiate and swallow your pride for now.  

What employer do you think is going to call up your reference, decide not to hire you, and then be persuaded you’re not a terrible hire when you respond to their rejection with “if this is because of a bad reference, the person I chose as my reference is a lying piece of shit and previously offered me a job”? 

Any employer who told you your reference wasn’t strong and could be persuaded into hiring you anyways would likely be equally persuaded by a shrug of the shoulders and a simple “they offered to take me on after my articles and only gave me positive performance reviews, so I thought they were happy with my work. I guess there are hard feelings from when I left. I hope the rest of my application package and the interactions we’ve had during the interview demonstrate that I’m a strong candidate for the role.” 

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