Willing to answer questions

[elle.woods]

Just finished 1L at Allard, and also happy to answer any questions / any PMs! 

[Patient0L]

On 6/4/2022 at 12:31 PM, Byzantine said:

Just finished my 1L at Allard. If any incoming students have questions about their first year feel free to ask me and I'll answer to the best of my ability. Learned a lot from posters on this forum so very willing to give back if I can be of any help. 

Did you take advanced crim or evidence in 2nd year? Trying to figure out who some good profs are for these. Already had NH for 1st year and I don’t want him to think I’m stalking him by taking every single one of his classes. 

[CleanHands]

11 minutes ago, Patient0L said:

Did you take advanced crim or evidence in 2nd year? Trying to figure out who some good profs are for these. Already had NH for 1st year and I don’t want him to think I’m stalking him by taking every single one of his classes. 

He's a popular prof for those classes for a reason (although I disliked his CAN length restrictions).

I had Cunliffe for evidence and she's a capable prof and nice enough person but very dry.

[Patient0L]

4 minutes ago, CleanHands said:

He's a popular prof for those classes for a reason (although I disliked his CAN length restrictions).

I had Cunliffe for evidence and she's a capable prof and nice enough person but very dry.

He no longer has CAN length restrictions!

Cunliffe - how do we feel about reading quantity and curve? Average?

Also curious what the other 1L crim profs were like, if you have experience. I noticed some of them are also teaching sections of the upper year courses. 

[CleanHands]

14 minutes ago, Patient0L said:

He no longer has CAN length restrictions!

Oh, right on. Apologies for the outdated commentary.

15 minutes ago, Patient0L said:

Cunliffe - how do we feel about reading quantity and curve? Average?

There were significantly more readings in her class than most but I got the impression that was as much due to the subject matter of evidence law class as her teaching style. However, part of her pedagogue did include two mock cases we'd follow along with throughout the course and apply what we'd learned to hypothetical issues arising in said cases, which did create more work if you wanted to actually know what was going on in the class discussions.

I don't have stats to back this up but anecdotally her curve seemed to be tighter and trend people closer to the average and away from extremely great or poor grades, compared to other profs.

19 minutes ago, Patient0L said:

Also curious what the other 1L crim profs were like, if you have experience. I noticed some of them are also teaching sections of the upper year courses. 

Benedet was my 1L crim prof and may have been the best prof I had during my time at UBC. Explained the subject matter in a clear and comprehensible way, was very engaging, encouraged open dialogue that was very interesting and was respectful of varying views (in a way where participation was in no way forced but conversation was facilitated to help everyone grapple with and understand why the holdings were what they were and what could be argued differently, and the discussions were genuinely fun and worthwhile), and had a very empirical and fair approach to grading.

[Byzantine]

5 hours ago, Patient0L said:

Did you take advanced crim or evidence in 2nd year? Trying to figure out who some good profs are for these. Already had NH for 1st year and I don’t want him to think I’m stalking him by taking every single one of his classes. 

I had Nikos for evidence this year and he was great. If you liked him for crim, you’ll like him for evidence. Heavy criminal focus in the readings but he said it was applicable to civil cases as well (don’t have the experience to know if that’s true or not). Gordon also taught evidence this year and I heard good things. 
 

haven’t taken advanced crim yet but Nikos is always a good bet IMO 

[Patient0L]

@Byzantine @CleanHands
 

Thank you both for the info! I’m probably still going to try to get into Nikos’ evidence… But he said he’s not teaching it 1st term, so we’ll see what my schedule will accommodate. 

Anyone take Liston for admin? I like how generous she is as a prof, but I’m also a bit wary of her reading load…

 

[Byzantine]

3 hours ago, Patient0L said:

@Byzantine @CleanHands
 

Thank you both for the info! I’m probably still going to try to get into Nikos’ evidence… But he said he’s not teaching it 1st term, so we’ll see what my schedule will accommodate. 

Anyone take Liston for admin? I like how generous she is as a prof, but I’m also a bit wary of her reading load…

 

Liston is decent for admin. If you had her for public law and liked her it’s probably a decent bet to take her for admin. She’s quite academic and a lot of reading, but the exam is take home and not that bad. If you end up taking her feel free to PM for a good CAN. 
 

Heard bad things about Ahmad for admin. Pulleyblank is very good. 

[Patient0L]

9 hours ago, Byzantine said:

Liston is decent for admin. If you had her for public law and liked her it’s probably a decent bet to take her for admin. She’s quite academic and a lot of reading, but the exam is take home and not that bad. If you end up taking her feel free to PM for a good CAN. 
 

Heard bad things about Ahmad for admin. Pulleyblank is very good. 

That’s great to know! I kinda hated the first 2/3 of Public but I think it was more the subject matter (Patriation Reference… etc… 😴) than her. If I get into her section I will definitely PM for a CAN! Thanks!

 

[Megjackson]

You're done 2L now I presume. What has been the major differences between 1L and 2L? Schedule, workload, social life etc.? 

[Byzantine]

2 hours ago, Megjackson said:

You're done 2L now I presume. What has been the major differences between 1L and 2L? Schedule, workload, social life etc.? 

Academically it’s generally easier to manage. You can choose your own courses and schedule. You also know more about preparing and managing law school courses. Saying that, this does depend on what you’re doing. For example, if you’re doing the job recruit that takes up a good chunk of time in term one. If you’re doing a moot you’re pretty busy as well; they typically are more demanding than you would think from their credits. 

Personally I found 1st term very difficult doing the recruit, a moot, and some tough courses. 2nd term was much easier.

Social life wise you’re not in the same 50 person cohort as 1L. Still there’s lot of opportunities to meet people / events to attend. You’ll know people from 1L as well. 

Edited May 22, 2023 by Byzantine

[Olive]

What do you and other students think about the grading system at Allard? Looking at past years it appears that only roughly 2-5% of 1L students have an average in the A- range and none have averages of A or A+. I’m stuck deciding what school to attend and I’m worried about potentially receiving lower grades if I chose to attend UBC and how this would impact me in applying to jobs in Toronto. 

[elle.woods]

14 minutes ago, Olive said:

What do you and other students think about the grading system at Allard? Looking at past years it appears that only roughly 2-5% of 1L students have an average in the A- range and none have averages of A or A+. I’m stuck deciding what school to attend and I’m worried about potentially receiving lower grades if I chose to attend UBC and how this would impact me in applying to jobs in Toronto. 

I just finished 1L at Allard with a 79.2% average. I could have gotten a 80 (A-) but I sewered myself on one exam in April that brought my average down a little (this still haunts me). Most of my friends that attended class, did the readings, engaged with the material, and studied well got similar grades. I think the grading system is very fair and definitely rewards those who put in the effort. I also found the practice midterm exams in December were great indicators of how professors score exams, and they work in a help-not-hurt model in that if you score higher in April, your December mark gets thrown out. 

I can't comment on how recruit works in Toronto but I think if you are near the top of your class, you would be viewed as a good candidate for jobs in Toronto. They can see this on your transcript as class averages are also listed. Employers in Vancouver view anything 76%+ as great as its above the class average (from what I've heard, only one firm has a 76% cutoff and even though grades help, everywhere else looks at marks more holistically). I think an A/A+ average would be very difficult to achieve at any law school because most, if not all, adhere to a pretty strict low-mid 70s curve. However, i think the general rule is to go to school where you want to work, so UBC might not be your best choice regardless of how grades work here. 

[Byzantine]

3 hours ago, Olive said:

What do you and other students think about the grading system at Allard? Looking at past years it appears that only roughly 2-5% of 1L students have an average in the A- range and none have averages of A or A+. I’m stuck deciding what school to attend and I’m worried about potentially receiving lower grades if I chose to attend UBC and how this would impact me in applying to jobs in Toronto. 

My guess is that firms/government in Toronto would be aware of the grading system at Allard and focus more on how you performed in relation to the class as opposed to your raw percentage. I’m sticking around Vancouver so I’ve never really looked into it much tbh.

 

I wouldn’t make a decision based on the grading system. Looks like you’re deciding between UBC/Ottawa and have got some good info in the other thread. Feel free to let me know if you have any other questions.  

Edited May 31, 2023 by Byzantine

[Byzantine]

3 hours ago, elle.woods said:

I just finished 1L at Allard with a 79.2% average. I could have gotten a 80 (A-) but I sewered myself on one exam in April that brought my average down a little (this still haunts me).

You did very well, congrats! This will open up a lot of opportunities. Definitely don't beat yourself up over one class.

 

 

3 hours ago, elle.woods said:

Most of my friends that attended class, did the readings, engaged with the material, and studied well got similar grades. I think the grading system is very fair and definitely rewards those who put in the effort. I also found the practice midterm exams in December were great indicators of how professors score exams, and they work in a help-not-hurt model in that if you score higher in April, your December mark gets thrown out. 

I would have to disagree slightly with this. Most students study very hard, go to class, etc, but not everyone can be in the top 10-15% marks wise. 

[CleanHands]

26 minutes ago, Byzantine said:

I would have to disagree slightly with this. Most students study very hard, go to class, etc, but not everyone can be in the top 10-15% marks wise. 

Yeah...I knew more than a few people who tried very hard and ended up with well below average grades. Some serious mental health and/or addictions issues arose from this. Let's be thoughtful about messaging around this.

People should manage expectations going into law school. We're graded on a curve and it's not like the majority of Allard students are lazy and/or stupid. It's simple statistics that not every smart and diligent student can be on the dean's list.

[Rhaenyra]

23 hours ago, Byzantine said:

I would have to disagree slightly with this. Most students study very hard, go to class, etc, but not everyone can be in the top 10-15% marks wise.

So what exactly makes someone top 10% if it's not the hard work? Assuming everyone who got in has the intellectual capacities needed for the material.

[Aschenbach]

On 5/30/2023 at 2:41 PM, Olive said:

What do you and other students think about the grading system at Allard? Looking at past years it appears that only roughly 2-5% of 1L students have an average in the A- range and none have averages of A or A+. I’m stuck deciding what school to attend and I’m worried about potentially receiving lower grades if I chose to attend UBC and how this would impact me in applying to jobs in Toronto. 

Most employers will definitely know the grading system at Allard. I had a 78.XX% average in 1L (roughly top 15%) which translates to a B+ and received OCIs from almost all the major Bay St firms and clerkship interviews at BCSC and the federal court.

And for the employers that don't know, I think your extracurriculars (mooting, LSLAP, work & volunteer experience, etc.) will matter more than whether you got a B+ or an A-.

[Byzantine]

45 minutes ago, Rhaenyra said:

So what exactly makes someone top 10% if it's not the hard work? Assuming everyone who got in has the intellectual capacities needed for the material.

Hard to say tbh. I think Elle's suggestions are good (always attend class, do the readings, study smart, review what went well/bad with midterms and apply for finals). I just think those things are necessary, but not sufficient to ending up in the top 10%. My experience is that most students work hard and do most of those things, but just because of the nature of the curve most students can't end up in the top 10%. 

I think in addition to that, you need to do well in the situations that law school is evaluating you in. Basically how well can you perform in a law school exam. How well can you read, write, and analyze in a high pressure / short time frame situation. You definitely get better at this as you go along, but some people are going to come into law school better at this than others. 

One thing you can do to improve during 1L is to write practice exams and review them. Also realize and learn what professors are looking for in an exam. This is different for every professor so make sure to ask. But generally mostly everyone is going to get the law correct but those who score high will apply the law to the facts better and do more analysis. I found the book Getting to Maybe helpful for this, but there are probably others that go over it well. Generally you learn this during the year as well. 

I think Elle's suggestion to study well/smart is also important. That means assessing what's working during the year and changing up your approach as needed. Especially in the spring semester I found there wasn't enough time to do everything you wanted to (do all the readings, attend all classes, finish your outline/CAN, do practice tests). So you have to prioritize a bit. For me that meant not doing the readings for classes where I realized the professor goes over it all in class / that I found easier. Then use that extra time to spend more time on outlines/practice tests which are going to be more bang for your buck IMO. Always prioritize attending class. 

[Rhaenyra]

2 hours ago, Byzantine said:

finish your outline/CAN

Thanks so much for all the tips. Really helpful. 
just one more question, what the hell is CAN? lol

[Patient0L]

On 5/30/2023 at 3:04 PM, elle.woods said:

just finished 1L at Allard with a 79.2% average. I could have gotten a 80 (A-) but I sewered myself on one exam in April that brought my average down a little (this still haunts me). Most of my friends that attended class, did the readings, engaged with the material, and studied well got similar grades.

I don’t believe this is statistically possible unless one has very few friends.

UBC designs the curve so that most students end up with an average between 72 and 76.

Every person in my section put in %110. 

If anyone is interested, here is the grade distribution for this year:

https://allard.ubc.ca/sites/default/files/2023-05/grade_dist_2223.pdf

On 5/30/2023 at 7:10 PM, CleanHands said:

Yeah...I knew more than a few people who tried very hard and ended up with well below average grades. Some serious mental health and/or addictions issues arose from this. Let's be thoughtful about messaging around this

Yup. It’s a mental health shit show. 

 

[Byzantine]

11 hours ago, Rhaenyra said:

Thanks so much for all the tips. Really helpful. 
just one more question, what the hell is CAN? lol

Condensed annotated notes. They’re also called outlines. It’s basically the notes you bring into the exam that has all the cases/legal tests/etc that you need to know  

[user138161]

Are there any classes that you don’t need to attend in person? 

[traintogo]

7 hours ago, user138161 said:

Are there any classes that you don’t need to attend in person? 

If you’re asking about live stream/zoom/recordings, it depends on the professor but almost all don’t have any remote options. 
 

If you’re asking about skipping, it really depends on the prof and class. For me, I skipped transnational law and ended up with a 80%+ in the class because of the way the prof taught the class (made going in person unnecessary). There are a few other courses like that in first year, but again, depends on the professor. 

[GoBigOrGoHome]

On 5/31/2023 at 5:55 PM, Rhaenyra said:

So what exactly makes someone top 10% if it's not the hard work? Assuming everyone who got in has the intellectual capacities needed for the material.

Law school exams are a unique beast, and hard work isn't going to get you As. It is figuring out how to write the exam for that instructor. 

Hands down the smartest person in my small group didn't do well in the fall semester. This person put in more work than anyone and always knew the answer with detail whenever the prof asked about something. Was on top of assignments, exam review, CANs - everything. 

I hope they figured out what they needed to improve by the second semester - because it was not their understanding of the material. They had that down. 

I secretly hope that they will be the gold medalist in a couple of years because they are really hard-working and smart.