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Considering doing an MBA after JD


JustHereNotStaying

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JustHereNotStaying
  • Law Student

Starting third year of law school. I’m basically crim focused - have stellar marks and worked for MAG as well as a defence firm. However, I realized at the end of the day that a law practice is a business and Crim itself is very business oriented in the background (defence not government). I’m considering doing an MBA to gain some business experience on how to run a firm or even potentially using the MBA to keep my civil options open.

I understand an MBA is not worth it if you did a business undergrad and did business type courses in law school. 

 

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ZukoJD
  • Law Student

If your main goal is getting some business savvy to help run a practice then there are cheaper and potentially more effective options. 
 

You can take accounting and finance courses online of course. There’s also a startup called 4L Academy that is creating a business essentials course targeted specifically for law students.
 

There’s plenty of options in this space and they’re worth looking into before you commit the substantial funds an MBA would require. Not to mention the opportunity cost. 
 

I imagine the route I mentioned above isn’t going to be as effective for keeping civil options open but how important that really is to you is for you to decide. 
 


 

 

Edited by ZukoJD
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LMP
  • Law Student

The few applicable things you learn from an MBA won't be worth the opportunity cost and tution.

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JustHereNotStaying
  • Law Student

Keeping my civil options is important for me. I’m going to see how the Toronto articling recruit goes. If I get nothing basically going to be articling for minimum wage which sucks. I’m going to go into debt working lol. Also, I was able to keep my debt load somewhat down because I live close to my law school. 

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BlockedQuebecois
  • Lawyer

This is a pretty simple question. If you want to practice criminal defence, you shouldn't get an MBA. It's a waste of time that will teach you essentially nothing about running a sole practice. If your grades were poor enough that no non-criminal law shop will hire you right now, you really don't want to practice criminal defence, and you're hoping an MBA will backdoor you into a civil litigation or solicitor firm, then it might be worth doing. 

But you have to be honest with yourself about whether or not you want to practice criminal law, because doing an MBA to go practice criminal defence is incredibly stupid. 

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5 hours ago, JustHereNotStaying said:

I’m going to see how the Toronto articling recruit goes. If I get nothing basically going to be articling for minimum wage which sucks.

Maybe I've misunderstood what you're saying, but striking out during the articling recruit doesn't necessarily result in articles that pay the minimum wage. Legal employers continue to hire articling students at competitive salaries before and after graduation. It's not recruit or bust, if that's what you're saying. 

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AllRise
  • Law Student

I don't disagree with the above suggestions, however, if money isn't an issue and you love studying and networking, an MBA might be something worth pursuing. I agree with a lot of the statements that specifically completing an MBA to assist with a career in Criminal Law is probably not going to be helpful. 

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JustHereNotStaying
  • Law Student

I think I should lay out my options in order:

Get articling in criminal law with a competitive salary (I stress competitive because I have been offered minimum wage already and will end up more in debt working).

If I luck out after Toronto recruit, apply for MBA (has to be with co-op). I would continue applying for criminal law articling during the year. 

If I get competitive articling decline MBA (500-1k down the drain in cash). Don’t get anything then MBA and back door to civil. 
 

I thought the MBA might help with running a practice - general consensus is wrong assumption.

thanks everyone! 

Edited by JustHereNotStaying
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Snax
  • Lawyer
1 hour ago, JustHereNotStaying said:

I think I should lay out my options in order:

Get articling in criminal law with a competitive salary (I stress competitive because I have been offered minimum wage already and will end up more in debt working).

If I luck out after Toronto recruit, apply for MBA (has to be with co-op). I would continue applying for criminal law articling during the year. 

If I get competitive articling decline MBA (500-1k down the drain in cash). Don’t get anything then MBA and back door to civil. 
 

I thought the MBA might help with running a practice - general consensus is wrong assumption.

thanks everyone! 

Others can correct me if I’m wrong because it’s not the area in which I work, but I can recall seeing a fair number of criminal defence articling positions being posted, and the pay for almost all of them was around minimum wage (I.e. $750/week was on the high end). 
 

if you’re looking to make a lot of money articling in criminal defence, you’re setting yourself up for disappointment. You’ll either have to accept what firms in the area are offering or pursue an alternative. It goes without saying that government positions are a different story in terms of pay, but you haven’t really mentioned that as an area of interest. 

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PulpFiction
  • Lawyer
2 hours ago, Snax said:

-

You're right - most articling positions in criminal defence don't pay all that much. I think most people applying to these positions know this going in, so it isn't a shock. From my experience, those interested in criminal defence gigs have dedicated quite a bit of time into crafting a resume tailored toward this practice area - this includes networking with practitioners, taking the relevant courses, participating in clinics, etc, and they generally understand the financial realities of criminal defence coming out of school. I went so far as to pick a law school based on what allowed me to minimize my debt, knowing that I'd likely end up in a lower paying position during articles and as an associate working in criminal defence. 

A lot of people accept this lower pay with the hopes of being shown the ropes and getting a lot of experience running files quickly, then eventually setting up shop on their own. Seems to be the norm from what I've seen. Some will stay with bigger or more well known shops that pay competitive wages, but many don't gain any value working as an associate once they've learned to run a file and handle themselves in court - it just makes sense to do it solo a lot of the time. 

To be frank, most areas of law are in a different league than criminal law when it comes to articling and associate salaries. If you're articling with the government in criminal law, you'll see better pay. But for criminal defence, it's pretty shit, country-wide.

To the original question OP posted: Don't get an MBA to see how to run your law practice. You learn by being part of the practice and seeing how your principal does things, and by asking questions, and eventually, by doing it yourself. I learned so much about the business side of running a practice by being at a small criminal defence shop during articles, and that learning experience was one of the ways my principal sold the position to me. 

Edited by PulpFiction
i dont know
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CleanHands
  • Lawyer

Silliest shit I've read here in a while.

An MBA will allow you to network with other swinging dick MBA entrepreneurs so you can engage in mutually beneficial business arrangements in the future, with one of you selling software to the other to help them run their business or some shit.

In criminal defence you will get clients from one hooligan you represented telling a fellow inmate in the remand centre that you're solid and will fight for them. It's about as far away from the MBA world as you can get.

And nobody makes bank and pays off their student loans while articling in crim defence.

Bizarre thread. Great grades, crim defence and MAG experience, yet apparently you learned nothing about the field you are looking to enter.

Edited by CleanHands
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JustHereNotStaying
  • Law Student

So minimum wage salaries are actually on the low end (it’s minimum wage!). Gov pays 1400 and well know defence firms pay 1200. You get to the  600-700 ranges for more solo practitioners. A lot of these 600-700 firms make you own a vehicle for set date court and make you pay for the gas as well. By the end of the week you have worked for free with all your expenses. I’m trying to avoid one of these predatory firms by having a back up option. 

@CleanHands it’s more about keeping my options open. There’s nothing stopping me from doing civil law courses in my third year and doing an MBA then back dooring to civil. I did learn a lot in crim, but I also learned there’s a lot of predatory defence firms that try to abuse their articling students. I’m trying to avoid this. Also, I learned that a lot of defence lawyers know how to get people off from murder charges but suck at math (determining dead time credits) and aren’t really good on the business end (client communications, marketing and employee relations). That’s the main reason their business suffers and they stay solo for most of their careers. Doing an MBA is a back up that I can apply for and decline if I get it. I really think it’s problematic that people agree law students should take minimum wage for crim defence and shouldn’t even explore other options. That’s super sad to see from others in the community and totally needs to change. 

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TheAEGIS
  • Lawyer

Yeah ... but the plan still doesn't make sense not the least because an MBA is stupidly expensive.

Now, OP, you talk like a chap who isn't worried about dropping 60-100k on an optional degree, so I won't belabor that point.
But if your plan is essentially criminal law with civil as a backup why not just take civ courses in 3L and apply to both? That way if you get offers for crim you like, you go with that and if you don't presumably you get one from a civ place? 

You've already summered with MAG and have crim experience so you don't need more crim courses to demonstrate interest.

The MBA in this scenario is a white elephant acting as a roided up fail safe for a practice area many students get into without even having relevant courses in law school. Also civ is so broad I don't really know what area you're interested in - but the advice remains the same.

The MBA is overkill.

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Damages
  • Lawyer

MBA = networking. That is all. You learn 1st or potentially 2nd year level undergrad business stuff. If networking is not your goal, then just buy some books on business or join a local start-up networking meetup or group.

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Kimura
  • Lawyer
On 6/6/2022 at 7:31 AM, JustHereNotStaying said:

Starting third year of law school. I’m basically crim focused - have stellar marks and worked for MAG as well as a defence firm. However, I realized at the end of the day that a law practice is a business and Crim itself is very business oriented in the background (defence not government). I’m considering doing an MBA to gain some business experience on how to run a firm or even potentially using the MBA to keep my civil options open.

I understand an MBA is not worth it if you did a business undergrad and did business type courses in law school. 

 

An MBA is not going to teach you how to run a firm or how to go out as a sole - Actually running a firm or going out as a sole is going to teach you how to run a firm or go sole. There are tons of criminal lawyers who are brilliant at client communications, marketing and employee relations. I can almost guarantee you none of them learned through an MBA. 

If you want to be a litigator (criminal/civil/what have you), you'll develop those skills no where better than in criminal law as you'll be on your feet from the get-go.

I just don't see how an MBA adds anything to your repertoire for the purposes you've stated. It's not going to back door you to Civil whatsoever. 

 

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easttowest
  • Lawyer

Why in the world do you need an MBA to “back door” into civil litigation? 

This is a dumb idea. 

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1 minute ago, easttowest said:

Why in the world do you need an MBA to “back door” into civil litigation? 

This is a dumb idea. 

Yeah, like, just knock on the front door and someone will let you in. It’s not that complicated. 

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JustHereNotStaying
  • Law Student
On 6/24/2022 at 6:15 PM, TheAEGIS said:

Yeah ... but the plan still doesn't make sense not the least because an MBA is stupidly expensive.

Now, OP, you talk like a chap who isn't worried about dropping 60-100k on an optional degree, so I won't belabor that point.
But if your plan is essentially criminal law with civil as a backup why not just take civ courses in 3L and apply to both? That way if you get offers for crim you like, you go with that and if you don't presumably you get one from a civ place? 

You've already summered with MAG and have crim experience so you don't need more crim courses to demonstrate interest.

The MBA in this scenario is a white elephant acting as a roided up fail safe for a practice area many students get into without even having relevant courses in law school. Also civ is so broad I don't really know what area you're interested in - but the advice remains the same.

The MBA is overkill.

This makes the most sense - this year going to take civ courses for 3L. I’ll miss the civil side for the Toronto recruit (have 0 experience in civil law, so very low chances for a civil litigation place). Maybe try later in the year to transition if I don’t get anything. Thanks! 

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I am not at all convinced an mba will assist you in getting a job at a civil litigation shop. If anything, I think it might harm your chances. 
 

If I was in charge of hiring (if, as I am not, so take my opinion for what it is, my opinion) and saw that someone did a mba right after law school I’d be confused about why they are applying to a civil litigation shop. The mba would signal to me that you didn’t like law school / the practice of law and wanted to transfer to some other industry. I’d then be wondering why they are now applying for law jobs again and would be wondering how committed you really are. 
 

Also, you will be in less debt after articling for a year at minimum wage than you would be after a mba where not only will you not get paid, but you will have to pay them.

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JustHereNotStaying
  • Law Student

understandably, my question, therefore, becomes how hard is it to obtain articling at a decent pay for a civil law position after the Toronto recruit?

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CleanHands
  • Lawyer
4 minutes ago, JustHereNotStaying said:

40k or above

Well if that's where you're aiming, there are even plenty of articling options in criminal law that pay that, and it sounds like you have an extremely competitive resume for those positions.

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JustHereNotStaying
  • Law Student

I think it's more I don't know where to look other than the articling recruits to be honest.

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