Windsor Law vs. US T2

[Needadvice123]

I have received an offer as a transfer student to attend Windsor Law this upcoming fall. I completed my 1L year, and the first semester of my 2L year, at a Law School here in the United States. The school's ranking fluctuates between 60-70 over the past few years according to US News rankings. My largest concern is in regard to employability, and I would like to aim for BigLaw or a larger full-service firm but the avenues to enter may be limited. I am having trouble deciding because I did fare well in my academics; I was selected to the Dean's Honor List and my class rank at the end of last semester places me near the top 1/3 (Top 38%). In addition, I am clerking at a criminal defense law firm here in the U.S over the summer, and I feel appreciated and welcomed by the Partners. They have offered for me to work with them over the next school year, and I have also discussed the possibility of visa sponsorship and the firm would be willing to sponsor me when that time comes. 

The U.S. school does have a strong regional reputation, but their recent employment stats have me a little apprehensive. I searched to find any statistics related to employment for Windsor Law grads, and Canadian law grads for the most part, but have not found any recent information. If I stay in the U.S., I plan on graduating from the U.S. school after the December 2023 semester and would be able to sit for the bar exam in February of 2024. At Windsor Law, I would have to add an extra semester so I do essentially lose a semester because I would graduate in 2024. Also, having to article for a year means I wait until 2025 to be barred in Ontario. 

Also, I was unable to write on for law review my first year, and missed the deadline this year (I know, poor planning on my part). So there isn't really any huge incentive of landing BigLaw from where I am now. The OCI employers at the U.S. school are quite limited, and the BigLaw positions are quite sparse for students from my school. I did apply to Toronto firms through viLaw, and would have the option of participating in OCI at Windsor. 

In terms of long term preference, I do consider Canada my first option. But, the U.S has grown on me since I first started law school. I do have the option to make trips back to Canada quite often so I am not homesick or anything like that. I feel like both options are viable, and I wouldn't be much "worse-off" if I chose one over the other. It also gets a little trickier, my fiancee is in medical school and she most likely will do her residency in the U.S., but Canada is still an option for her if I transfer back. Please if anyone can provide any insight. 

Important to note: 

- I am a Canadian citizen.

- I did receive a scholarship at the U.S. school, and was able to finance most of my expenses through savings and haven't taken on any sizeable loans. 

- I am a mature student with 10+ years of professional experience (I worked in insurance and had roles in underwriting).

[ZukoJD]

A good amount of Windsor grads land the kinds of roles you're looking for, and their employment outcomes in Canada generally are strong. Look up the lawyers at some big firms you're interested in: Windsor grads are all over the place. 

I don't understand your reluctance to leave the US because of your position and potential future position at a criminal defence firm, given that you want to pursue Biglaw. With your one summer at a criminal defence firm already under your belt you could likely find another firm to work at here in Canada going forward anyway.

With respect to your fiancée and moving back to Canada there are some concerns. You should be sure that she is comfortable and aware of the limitations that come with returning to Canada having gone to a US medical school. I'm no expert but I've recently spoken to someone looking to do exactly this and they complained about this path would restrict them to general practice. 

[QueensDenning]

28 minutes ago, ZukoJD said:

A good amount of Windsor grads land the kinds of roles you're looking for, and their employment outcomes in Canada generally are strong. Look up the lawyers at some big firms you're interested in: Windsor grads are all over the place. 

Just to point out the obvious, Windsor places ~18% of it's 2L class through the OCI recruit, so compared to other schools that's not very good, and coming from a mediocre US school with fairly middle of the road grades I wouldn't bet on landing an OCI job. Windsor grads being "all over the place" in big firms is a fairly immaterial metric to base a decision like this on. 

[ZukoJD]

7 minutes ago, QueensDenning said:

Just to point out the obvious, Windsor places ~18% of it's 2L class through the OCI recruit, so compared to other schools that's not very good, and coming from a mediocre US school with fairly middle of the road grades I wouldn't bet on landing an OCI job. Windsor grads being "all over the place" in big firms is a fairly immaterial metric to base a decision like this on. 

What proportion of Windsor students apply to OCIs? Certainly less than at other schools like Queen's and Western.

I didn't say they find an OCI job specifically, but that they would likely find a position at a law firm somewhere. 

The OCI recruit is not the be all end all and many grads go on to work in biglaw or larger full-service firms despite not having found a job in it. The fact that Windsor grads are to be found in high places all over is certainly not immaterial considering the same cannot be said for the school that OP currently attends. 

 

[CleanHands]

2 minutes ago, ZukoJD said:

What proportion of Windsor students apply to OCIs? Certainly less than at other schools like Queen's and Western.

Why would you assume that?

[Chef Justice]

Just now, CleanHands said:

Why would you assume that?

Took the words out of my mouth

[QueensDenning]

2 minutes ago, ZukoJD said:

What proportion of Windsor students apply to OCIs? Certainly less than at other schools like Queen's and Western.

I didn't say they find an OCI job specifically, but that they would likely find a position at a law firm somewhere. 

The OCI recruit is not the be all end all and many grads go on to work in biglaw or larger full-service firms despite not having found a job in it. The fact that Windsor grads are to be found in high places all over is certainly not immaterial considering the same cannot be said for the school that OP currently attends. 

 

Yeah I doubt your assumption - you think they wen't to Windsor so they could... what... work in Windsor? Doubt that's the intent of the vast majority of Windsor students. And the fact that Windsor grads are to be found in high places all over is absolutely immaterial considering grads from literally any Canadian school are to be found in high places all over (but some schools will have more than others in those high places). So it's certainly an immaterial consideration. 

I never said the OCI is be all end all. I didn't get my job through OCI and I'm very happy where I am - but I'm not so sure I would have got that job if I was at Windsor. 

[ZukoJD]

The demographics of the schools. 

4 minutes ago, QueensDenning said:

Yeah I doubt your assumption - you think they wen't to Windsor so they could... what... work in Windsor? Doubt that's the intent of the vast majority of Windsor students. And the fact that Windsor grads are to be found in high places all over is absolutely immaterial considering grads from literally any Canadian school are to be found in high places all over (but some schools will have more than others in those high places). So it's certainly an immaterial consideration. 

I never said the OCI is be all end all. I didn't get my job through OCI and I'm very happy where I am - but I'm not so sure I would have got that job if I was at Windsor. 

This conversation is about OP deciding whether they should stay at their mediocre US school or attend Windsor. Employment outcomes are going to be better at Windsor. OP is not talking about going to Queen's, or Western, or Osgoode. They were accepted as a transfer student to Windsor. 

Edit: You're honestly making my argument for me. 

Edited July 26, 2022 by ZukoJD

[QueensDenning]

7 minutes ago, ZukoJD said:

The demographics of the schools. 

This conversation is about OP deciding whether they should stay at their mediocre US school or attend Windsor. Employment outcomes are going to be better at Windsor. OP is not talking about going to Queen's, or Western, or Osgoode. They were accepted as a transfer student to Windsor. 

Edit: You're honestly making my argument for me. 

I’m not arguing just wanted to point out what I thought was a dumb metric to base a decision on - I.e. that plenty of Windsor grads end up wherever. It may well be that OP should transfer to Windsor I’m just saying that maybe think hard about it if the only reason is for OCI’s. Would be a different story at some other schools. 

[BlockedQuebecois]

13 minutes ago, ZukoJD said:

The demographics of the schools. 

Yeah come on guys, it’s a well known fact that the generic white dudes from the GTA at Windsor aren’t interested in working on Bay Street, particularly compared to the generic white dudes from the GTA at Western. It has nothing to do with the relative strength of the student body at each school. 

[ZukoJD]

16 minutes ago, QueensDenning said:

I’m not arguing just wanted to point out what I thought was a dumb metric to base a decision on - I.e. that plenty of Windsor grads end up wherever. It may well be that OP should transfer to Windsor I’m just saying that maybe think hard about it if the only reason is for OCI’s. Would be a different story at some other schools. 

I didn't say OP should base their entire decision on that metric. It's definitely something to consider though given that they want to work in biglaw or a full-service firm. 

12 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

Yeah come on guys, it’s a well known fact that the generic white dudes from the GTA at Windsor aren’t interested in working on Bay Street, particularly compared to the generic white dudes from the GTA at Western. It has nothing to do with the relative strength of the student body at each school. 

Nice strawman. I would bet on there being a greater proportion of students applying to OCIs at Queen's/Western than at Windsor, and I don't think this is at all unreasonable. Did I say it was a large difference? No. 

There's also far less generic white dudes from the GTA at Windsor law than at Queen's.

Edit: How do I know this? 70% of the Windsor law student population is female. Compared to a Western/Queen's where it's considerably more equal. 

 

Edited July 26, 2022 by ZukoJD

[CleanHands]

13 minutes ago, ZukoJD said:

Did I say it was a large difference? No. 

Not to belabor the point, but when you write that it is "certainly" the case that a lower proportion of Windsor students apply, that seems to imply that the gap would be obvious and thus large.

[ZukoJD]

1 minute ago, CleanHands said:

Not to belabor the point, but when you write that it is "certainly" the case that a lower proportion of Windsor students apply, that seems to imply that the gap would be obvious and thus large.

Noted. Tone is hard to convey over text sometimes. 

[LMP]

1 hour ago, ZukoJD said:

I didn't say OP should base their entire decision on that metric. It's definitely something to consider though given that they want to work in biglaw or a full-service firm. 

Nice strawman. I would bet on there being a greater proportion of students applying to OCIs at Queen's/Western than at Windsor, and I don't think this is at all unreasonable. Did I say it was a large difference? No. 

There's also far less generic white dudes from the GTA at Windsor law than at Queen's.

Edit: How do I know this? 70% of the Windsor law student population is female. Compared to a Western/Queen's where it's considerably more equal. 

 

You don't need to go to such lengths to defend Windsor. You can see on this very forum students who attended the school admitting that many doors are closed (or at least restricted) to the average Windsor student. 

I think it serves everyone best to be realistic about what oppertunites each school provides. And though your argument may spare certian people's feelings, the basis for it seems pretty spurious. 

Not every school needs to churn out biglaw associates or clerkship postions. I think we can agree on that. And if we do, then it seems ok to say that certian schools simply don't produce those results at anywhere near the level of other institutions. 

[ZukoJD]

10 minutes ago, LMP said:

You don't need to go to such lengths to defend Windsor. You can see on this very forum students who attended the school admitting that many doors are closed (or at least restricted) to the average Windsor student. 

I think it serves everyone best to be realistic about what oppertunites each school provides. And though your argument may spare certian people's feelings, the basis for it seems pretty spurious. 

Not every school needs to churn out biglaw associates or clerkship postions. I think we can agree on that. And if we do, then it seems ok to say that certian schools simply don't produce those results at anywhere near the level of other institutions. 

Windsor definitely is not equivalent to, say, Western/Osgoode etc etc etc. I don’t believe that either and I never said that. 
 

What I was trying to convey-for the sake of OP who only has Windsor as an option-is that Windsor can get them where they want to go. It’s not a sure thing, but it’s quite doable, whether you land an OCI position or you find your way there later on. 
 

OP’s alternative seems to be a school that precludes them from the kinds of opportunities Windsor grads have. So, I think it seems like a fairly good option comparatively speaking. 
 

Thank you for responding without resorting immediately to condescension. I appreciate that. 

 

Edited July 26, 2022 by ZukoJD

[beyondsection17]

People are splitting hairs here. OP will obviously be in a better position to get a job in Canada having gone to Windsor than (s)he will from a random school in the US. Anyone who says otherwise is kidding themselves.

OP - if you want to work in Canada, in biglaw or otherwise, you should absolutely transfer to Windsor. If you want to stay in the states at the criminal defence firm you're at, and you'll be happy there, then go for it. 

[lawess]

if canada is your first choice, then going to windsor is a no-brainer. you may not land a biglaw job right out of the gate but it's certainly better than studying in the united states.

[TheAEGIS]

We used to have this conversation a lot on the old forum. It's a shame those opinions/conversations don't seem to have percolated here as much because reading all this feels like groundhog day.

Full disclosure, I'm a Windsor grad. And I've never understood this argument that going to Windsor appreciably limits your prospects for getting into Bay Street. It certainly wasn't my experience. And these arguments seem to conflate two things: the relative strength of the student body in each school with the reputation of the school itself.

Many posters, including those actually involved in hiring, tended to agree that it was a bit of a fool's errand to try to suss out how much a school's reputation was responsible for something like OCI placement rates and how much of it was down to the individual applying. The commentary here seems to strongly assume the former predominates. If we're calling out posters for overstating "facts" then this is one I'd seriously look at. But I digress.

The issue OP has, as I see it anyway, is that they have already laid some groundwork for future employment in the U.S. and would also get an earlier start to their career. They have a partner who would almost undoubtedly have an easier start to her career as well in the U.S. All of this goes out the window if OP decides to return to Canada for school, which makes returning the more challenging decision in the short term.

But @lawess is exactly right. If the end goal is to live and practice in Canada, then getting a Canadian law degree rather than an American one is a no-brainer. It would save OP from having to re-qualify down the line, and I'm not sure that's easier - and their "biglaw" (i.e. Bay Street) prospects are likely no worse off graduating Windsor than if they stick with their current school. I'd argue the U.S. is far more hierarchical and rigid about these things. Anyway it's certainly better than trying to get into Bay Street with a degree from an American school most employers aren't familiar with.

As an aside, I don't know any international transfer students who made it to Bay Street right out of law school. Doesn't mean it won't/doesn't happen. Just an anecdote.

Edited July 27, 2022 by TheAEGIS
Clarity

[QMT20]

I have a couple of questions about your position. 

You mentioned your fiancee will likely do her residency in the U.S. but has Canada as an option if you transfer back. How would she feel about transferring back? It seems you have a path in the U.S. and that would be a more direct route for her as well. I think before you jump to any decision about Windsor or the American school based on the merits of those programs, you should talk to your fiancee about where she wants to be and make a decision together about whether Canada or the U.S. is a better place for both of you. I don't think the transfer would be worth it if it'll put a strain on your relationship. 

Regarding the potential transfer itself, would you be transferring to Windsor Single or Windsor Dual? Windsor Single (the Canadian JD only) program is much less expensive than Windsor Dual. You'd likely be paying similar tuition at Windsor Dual as your current degree with the caveat that you haven't mentioned if you have any scholarship money from Windsor. Additionally, while the Windsor Dual program teaches both Canadian and American law, I was told by some of my friends who went there that they didn't have many classes together with the Windsor Single class. Windsor Dual is ultimately an expensive program that requires more work and provides mediocre outcomes by Canadian standards. If the transfer is to Windsor Single, I think that's a much better option than Windsor Dual. You should clarify which one you're transferring to because that's an important factor for your decision. 

On 7/26/2022 at 10:25 AM, Needadvice123 said:

The U.S. school does have a strong regional reputation, but their recent employment stats have me a little apprehensive. I searched to find any statistics related to employment for Windsor Law grads, and Canadian law grads for the most part, but have not found any recent information. If I stay in the U.S., I plan on graduating from the U.S. school after the December 2023 semester and would be able to sit for the bar exam in February of 2024. At Windsor Law, I would have to add an extra semester so I do essentially lose a semester because I would graduate in 2024. Also, having to article for a year means I wait until 2025 to be barred in Ontario. 

The articling rate at Windsor is almost certainly higher than 90%, like most other Canadian law schools. However, measuring employment outcomes by articling rate is a bit deceptive. 

Not every articling position leads to permanent employment. Some companies and crown corporations will take on articling students without any pathway to permanent employment after articling. Even articling positions at firms/government departments/companies that hire junior lawyers doesn't guarantee permanent employment. The Crown often makes its articling students compete for contracts. Firms don't hire back students at the same rates. While most of the large full service and other OCI firms have had strong hire backs (90%+) in the last couple of years, smaller firms may not hire back articling students at the same rates. 

The point is, if you transfer to Windsor it's a near guarantee you will be able to secure an articling position post-law school. However, even if 90%+ of the students in a graduating class secure articling that doesn't guarantee the same number is securing a permanent position beyond articling. If your t2 American law school has a 75% or 80% employment rate in JD-required positions then those employment stats may actually be similar to Windsor's despite appearing more concerning on the surface. 

All in all I would ask where your fiancee wants to be and not just what her options are and whether you're transferring to Windsor Single or Windsor Dual? Additionally, how does your American school's employment outcomes actually compare to a 90%+ articling placement and 18% big law placement rate, with the caveat that the full 90% of the class placed in articling positions are not all securing permanent employment? 

If your fiancee also wants to come back to Canada or if she's neutral on Canada vs the US, and your transfer is to Windsor Single, I would probably transfer given you view Canada as a first option. If your fiancee prefers to stay in the U.S. or if your transfer is for Windsor Dual then it might make more sense to stay where you are. Ultimately, you should make your own decision about how you weigh each of those factors but that's how I'd weigh them. 

Edited July 28, 2022 by QMT20

[NikM]

On 7/26/2022 at 11:33 AM, QueensDenning said:

Just to point out the obvious, Windsor places ~18% of it's 2L class through the OCI recruit, so compared to other schools that's not very good, and coming from a mediocre US school with fairly middle of the road grades I wouldn't bet on landing an OCI job. Windsor grads being "all over the place" in big firms is a fairly immaterial metric to base a decision like this on. 

No one cares where you attended once you start practice. There are no Harvards in Canada. And if you are able to compare percentages based on applicants (ie. X-% of those participating in OCIs are successful at said school) then that is relevant. Your stat is disconnected from your conclusion. 

[QueensDenning]

On 8/17/2022 at 9:44 AM, NikM said:

No one cares where you attended once you start practice. There are no Harvards in Canada. And if you are able to compare percentages based on applicants (ie. X-% of those participating in OCIs are successful at said school) then that is relevant. Your stat is disconnected from your conclusion. 

Huh? 
 

I never said anything about your school mattering once you start practice. Don’t know what ur getting at here. 
 

You have less of a chance at getting a competitive Bay St job if you go to school at Windsor, compared to other schools like UofT or others. Don’t think anyone who knows what they are talking about would disagree with that. 

[NikM]

On 8/20/2022 at 4:57 PM, QueensDenning said:

Huh? 
 

I never said anything about your school mattering once you start practice. Don’t know what ur getting at here. 
 

You have less of a chance at getting a competitive Bay St job if you go to school at Windsor, compared to other schools like UofT or others. Don’t think anyone who knows what they are talking about would disagree with that. 

Your stats don’t make sense. You’re comparing hires to overall class size of 2L. You would need to compare the applicant pool to get an accurate placement rate. You lack basic stat skills. And I can very much disagree with that claim. This is the common student bubble argument that is out of touch with reality.  

[helloall]

Okay but when Blakes interviews 289 students, hires 42 students and ~40% of them come from UofT alone it's pretty easy to infer that some schools have an advantage.

Edited August 22, 2022 by helloall

[123]

On 8/17/2022 at 9:44 AM, NikM said:

No one cares where you attended once you start practice.

I care a little. And I technically am someone.

Edited August 22, 2022 by realpseudonym

[CleanHands]

At this point can we just get a pinned post on the front page that "no one cares where you went to school" is just the go-to copium for Windsor Dual grads/students and applicants can disregard such posts?