uOttawa vs. UofT

[IntlLawHopeful]

This may sound a bit absurd (and I'm putting the horse before the cart since I haven't even applied anywhere yet, let alone been accepted) but this is mostly a question on school culture. 

UofT and uOttawa both offer joint JD/M(G)As in International Affairs and I'm having a hard time choosing between the two. 

While UofT obviously has a better reputation and more prestigious alum. uOttawa is both cheaper and less daunting. 

I am interested in pursuing a career in international affairs (trade or diplomacy) and while a law degree isn't necessary I know that it is a big assets and many people in the fields have legal backgrounds.                

I completed my undergrad at uOttawa and I really like the city and didn't mind the school. I am a WOC from the GTA and while Ottawa was still very white and had a difficult administration, I found it fairly easy to make friends, make connections, and have a lot of good comradery with my peers. While uOttawa isn't as established, being in the capital I do still feel as though there is a lot of opportunity there, but I am not sure if it compares to UofT

I don't have any family that went to law school and I am nervous about the competitive culture of UofT, especially since I am pretty shy. 

All this considered I have a few questions: 

1) Is the culture of UofT as bad as it is rumoured to be? 

2) Can uOttawa/Carleton be considered as competitive schools for launching careers in international affairs (in government and in the private sector?) 

3) Are the prestige and the potential network of UofT worth stepping out of my comfort zone for? 

[ZukoJD]

I would recommend looking up grads from those programs on LinkedIn to see where they end up. Reaching out to some of them to get their perspective on their program wouldn’t hurt either.

[helloall]

I'll let more knowledgeable people speak, but a few things to consider:

(1) Public international law (e.g., working for the UN) is incredibly competitive. See a previous discussion here.

(2) International trade is dominated by Big Law firms. UofT has a significant advantage over uOttawa, as seen with the 2L recruit results.

(3) That being said, uOttawa is better for government roles. If you're interested in public or government roles, minimize your debt and go with uOttawa.

(4) However, make sure you're actually interested in those sort of roles. I'm not trying to be cynical, but I've seen students imagine themselves making $200K starting in public/government roles, and go through a minor existentialist crisis when they find out that the pay is significantly less. They then pivot to corporate roles.

(5) An MGA is unnecessary for working in Big Law. While most of the JD/MGA students I know ended up in "prestigious" jobs, I know quite a few thought it wasn't worthwhile to tack on an additional degree outside of pure academic interest.

(6) UofT isn't really cut-throat. If anything, there's less stress for students since most people end up in Big Law. YMMV if you're interested in government/public interest work, since like 80% of students are gunning for corporate roles.

[reaperlaw]

5 hours ago, helloall said:

I'll let more knowledgeable people speak, but a few things to consider:

(1) Public international law (e.g., working for the UN) is incredibly competitive. See a previous discussion here.

(2) International trade is dominated by Big Law firms. UofT has a significant advantage over uOttawa, as seen with the 2L recruit results.

(3) That being said, uOttawa is better for government roles. If you're interested in public or government roles, minimize your debt and go with uOttawa.

(4) However, make sure you're actually interested in those sort of roles. I'm not trying to be cynical, but I've seen students imagine themselves making $200K starting in public/government roles, and go through a minor existentialist crisis when they find out that the pay is significantly less. They then pivot to corporate roles.

(5) An MGA is unnecessary for working in Big Law. While most of the JD/MGA students I know ended up in "prestigious" jobs, I know quite a few thought it wasn't worthwhile to tack on an additional degree outside of pure academic interest.

(6) UofT isn't really cut-throat. If anything, there's less stress for students since most people end up in Big Law. YMMV if you're interested in government/public interest work, since like 80% of students are gunning for corporate roles.

To your second point: international trade is not dominated by big law. The boutique firms have larger international trade practices, as does the government (i.e. JLT at GAC). The boutiques are all in Ottawa currently, and the majority of the lawyers at those firms are UO grads. Even if you see a bunch of people listed under an international trade group at a big law firm, chances are only a handful of those people actually do trade on a day-to-day basis.

Those Ottawa boutique firms also tend to hire UO summer and articling students more often than not, and in contrast to the Toronto firms which do trade, you actually will get hired to do trade if you get hired there. Good luck telling McCarthy's or Bennett Jones that you only want to do trade. I'd go even further and suggest that even if you get hired there, there's no guarantee you'll even get work in that area even if you request it. Anecdotally, I can tell you one of my friends asked for work from big law firm's trade group when they were a summer student and their request was politely declined. The one big law firm where you have a pretty good shot at doing trade if you summer there is McMillan, but their practice group is based out of Ottawa, not Toronto. I also know of one very recent new grad hire into a trade group in Toronto; and that new grad was from UO.

To the OP's second question: Carleton grads—more aptly put, NPSIA grads—have a massive advantage in international affairs/foreign service careers. Global Affairs Canada's relationship with NPSIA is in my view quite incesteous and pretty unfair to grads from similar programs (including UoT's Munk program). But it is what it is.

If you have any real desire to work in (public sector) international affairs outside the legal world, but you are still set on going to law school, the JD/MA at NPSIA is definitely a better idea than spending an exorbitant amount of money doing the JD/MGA at UoT.

For private sector international affairs, not really sure what you mean there unless you mean something like international development NGOs or the major global IOs. Even so, I don't think there's a meaningful advantage doing the NPSIA program over any other other well-known Canadian international affairs Master's program. Prestigious international affairs jobs at major IOs like the IMF and World Bank are probably going to be difficult to obtain until you're sufficiently advanced in your career regardless of where in Canada you got a degree from.

Lastly, I get you said you know that a legal degree isn't necessary for an international affairs/foreign service career, but I really would caution about getting your JD anyway if you are dead set on that career path. It is extraordinarily difficult to land into an articling job that is international affairs/foreign service focused. It's also very difficult to land an articling job that is international affairs adjacent for that matter (like trade or national security).

Edited August 3, 2022 by reaperlaw

[cherrytree]

8 hours ago, IntlLawHopeful said:

1) Is the culture of UofT as bad as it is rumoured to be? 

I've never been interested in international law but I did attend UofT, and all I can say is there are competitive people everywhere because pretty much every law school evaluates its students by grading them on a curve. When there is direct comparison that dictates who sits higher and who sits lower, there is pressure to compete simply because everyone around you is incentivized to continuously improve their academic performance, either through pulling up their grades, doing moots, or working in clinics, etc. Very often that causes negative emotional response like stress or frustration, but I don't think it would be fair to characterize that as the "culture". There are perfectly nice people to befriend and form bonds with, but it's up to you to reach out, remain open and be available to making friends without giving up too early.

8 hours ago, IntlLawHopeful said:

3) Are the prestige and the potential network of UofT worth stepping out of my comfort zone for? 

Again, can't speak to International Law because I was never interested in it and did not work towards that direction when I was a student at UofT, but I would say that the "prestige and potential network", i.e., having the name of the school on your resume and your email signature, only goes as far as maybe getting your foot in the door, if you manage to get a coffee chat or an interview. I say this as a fellow first gen law student who doesn't have strong family connections to lean on. Once you're in the room, it's up to you to demonstrate and prove that the potential employer or mentor that you are worthy of their time and investment, and you will make the best of the opportunity. I don't know how you define "stepping out of my comfort zone", but law school will most likely be a big step out of your comfort zone if you are the first in your family to attend law school no matter which school, simply because doing an undergrad at a given university no way compares to doing law school at the same university, other than the geographical location and the scenery being familiar.