September 2022 - Return to Office

[LawfulWaffle]

Hello all,

As September approaches and another round of (ludicrous) return to work commands come through from firms, I wanted to canvas what firms and lawyers are doing, and how everyone is handling it. 
 

I’ve heard that non-compliance with RTO mandates has become quite widespread among the lawyers at the Sister firms. In fact, I’ve even heard a rumour that the non-compliance is so widespread that firms may be planning to reduce (or even disentitle) associates to bonuses this year, if they do not make their obligatory appearances in the office. 

Are you back in the office or are you part of the “non-compliant” crowd? 

Do you see any actual benefits to attending?

What steps are being taken by your firm taking to compel compliance with RTO or are they content with voluntary compliance?

Happy to hear from everyone!

[Bob Jones]

Still hybrid, there’s pros and cons to in office and remote. I say don’t be a jerk and try to be reasonable and a time player. That will go along way with your bosses long term. 

[Jaggers]

I think most companies/firms are planning to be pretty directive about getting people back in the office. Most people think that work is done more successfully, productively and collaboratively if people are in the office. It is better for integrating new people, promoting your culture, and building stronger links among coworkers.

I imagine that for people who just choose to ignore the rules, losing a bonus is probably the best case scenario. I'd imagine in many cases you'll be looking for other work sooner rather than later.

[easttowest]

We are supposed to come back (not 5 days) but no word about tying to bonus. I imagine and expect that will the logical next step though. 

I am in 3-4 days a week. 

Edited August 29, 2022 by easttowest

[Lawstudents20202020]

Most firms in my area are in person or hybrid with the majority of the time being in person. 

[easttowest]

My dept has very high attendance and is a big reason why I go so much. I like my co-workers and we rarely interact when remote. I’m also still jr enough where being able to stand in an office door talking shop or high-level strategy about a file is a huge benefit and one that just doesn’t happen remotely without effort on everyone’s part. 

[Vizslaw]

Not a sister firm, but we will be requiring our team to be in the office at least 3 days a week starting soon. We have been WFH since March 2020, and while it has been manageable, it's not a sustainable way to run a law firm, especially a small one. The relationships and collegiality is a huge part of what makes our firm attractive. We were known for throwing epic parties and doing a lot of social events and we need to get back to that. Hard to go for office lunches and do fun stuff working from home all the time.

I'll be honest, I don't really understand the non-compliant crowd here. I'm guessing none of those lawyers had a problem going to their office every day before covid, so unless there are exceptional circumstances, like health issues that would make it dangerous to be indoors with others period, I don't understand the reasoning for not wanting to be in-person.

Look, we all like being able to wear a suit on top and shorts on the bottom doing these Zoom trials. Who doesn't? But if you asked me what's the best way to tell your employer you don't give a shit about the firm or your growth there, telling them you don't want to work in-person would probably be the most effective answer out there.

Related tangent: we interviewed an associate and asked what kind of work model they wanted (only WFH, hyrbid, only in-person) and they said, well, I have a laptop, I can work from anywhere so why bother going into the office and wow that interview ended pretty quickly thereafter. 

I want to have a hybrid model and be flexible. I have two very young children (4 year old and 1 year old), so being home has been wonderful. However, working from home makes it impractical to collaborate or have spontaneous debriefs after calls or hearings. So a hybrid model seems to be the best option out there and practically speaking any of our lawyers who say they aren't down with that are going to be looking for new jobs. Some of our hearings are already back to being in-person, so I see no argument for not being willing to go into an office when you'll go into court. 

 

[BlockedQuebecois]

I don’t think having a “collegial” firm is dependent on having mandatory work from office policies. I’ve seen a lot of organizations of varying sizes build fun, collegial work environments without tracking how often their employees are in the office. If a firm isn’t managing to do that because people are working from home, that falls on firm management.

In any event, forcing people who don’t want to come into the office to come in and firing those who don’t want to strikes me as a pretty ineffective strategy for creating a fun, collegial, relationship-centred workplace. It is very “the beatings will continue until morale improves”. 

I would probably quit if my firm told me they would be seriously policing my attendance at the office, and I don’t think anyone would accuse me of being the type of person who doesn’t give a shit about my firm or my growth there. 

I just have priorities that don’t involve working for and with people who care about whether I’m in the office when I don’t have any reason to be.

And I’m saying all that as someone who has consistently chosen to go into the office at least four days a week throughout covid. 

ETA: I think Jaggers is right that employers are going to take a firm approach on this point. They’re sick of paying for expensive office space that nobody uses, and the largely old, white men who run these organizations have always found them to be productive, safe and pleasant spaces. I just think that’s the wrong call, and a lot of the data we have from people who study this kind of thing shows us the end result is going to be a less happy, less productive workforce (at least amongst white collar workers). 

Edited August 29, 2022 by BlockedQuebecois

[WhoKnows]

 

I go in 2-3 times a week simply for some work/life separation and productivity, but am not in love with it.

For what it's worth, the voting with feet has already begun. I know of at least one place where some pretty important partners made it clear what would happen with them and their books should they be forced into the offices. I suspect that similar things will happen with associates, though not vocally, and to a lesser extent and for different reasons. A big one is people have gotten used to not having hour + long commutes, and the time that they get back allowing them to attend to various priorities in their lives. They won't give that up easily, especially not when there are places that will give them that flexibility. Time will tell, but it's a competitive labour market out there currently, and we'll see what approach wins out. 

In my opinion, if you're a firm that wants people back into the office, it's their responsibility to have leaders lead and buy-in to being back in the office, and to actually make the office a great place to be. In many places a lot of the pre-covid office benefits have not yet returned, which instantly makes it less appealing. But even a return to those levels I doubt will tilt the scales towards in-office attendance. You're gonna need to make people WANT to come in, and that's going to be difficult. I have some ideas, as an associate, of what would help me feel better about a return, but I'm doubtful those are getting instituted any time soon. 

Edited August 29, 2022 by WhoKnows

[PulpFiction]

3 hours ago, Vizslaw said:

But if you asked me what's the best way to tell your employer you don't give a shit about the firm or your growth there, telling them you don't want to work in-person would probably be the most effective answer out there.

I disagree. I don't see how wanting to work from home means you don't care about your firm or your growth at the firm. Seems like a silly thing to say, and the person you immediately ruled out from the position because they wanted to work from home probably dodged a bullet.

Don't get me wrong, I can see the benefit of spending some time in the office, but I don't think it's fair to say someone doesn't care about the firm or their growth at the firm because they'd rather work from home. The partners at my firm would never rule an otherwise great candidate out if they wanted to work from home, but I guess everyone has their own way of doing things. 

Edit: I was the first person at the small 5 lawyer, 8 person shop, to ask to WFH. I was also the newest member of the firm. They agreed and the partners went entirely WFH shortly after and haven't changed since. It doesn't look like we're going in-person anytime soon. We're all doing very well so I don't see the need to change. If they asked me to come in daily, I'd probably quit. But they won't, because I make them too much damn money 🙂 $$$

Edited August 29, 2022 by PulpFiction

[AHLALA]

5 hours ago, Jaggers said:

I think most companies/firms are planning to be pretty directive about getting people back in the office. Most people think that work is done more successfully, productively and collaboratively if people are in the office. It is better for integrating new people, promoting your culture, and building stronger links among coworkers.

I imagine that for people who just choose to ignore the rules, losing a bonus is probably the best case scenario. I'd imagine in many cases you'll be looking for other work sooner rather than later.

I don't know. I have seen a few mandatory one or two fixed days per week in the office, so people get to interact together. That said, in the past year, of all the calls I've had with clients (usually VPs), 90% of clients appeared to be working from home and, whenever we discuss WFH, it really seems it's there to stay.

I don't get the same feeling from legal and financial services firms, which are often more conservative and maybe more of a people's business. Official policies are trying to make us go back to the office, but I have never felt any pressure from the partners I work with. 

As leases go up for renewals in the coming years, I'll be really curious to see if any of the major firms decide to downsize their footprint to cut costs and keep the offices fuller. If I knew I'd have flexibility and still had a place to let some shirts at the office, I'd have no issue not having an assigned desk. 

[Jaggers]

For the people who have been mostly working from home for the last 2.5 years, I don't think anyone is expecting people to come in daily. But I also don't think most places are going to switch to full-time permanent WFH if they haven't made that announcement already.

We are giving up tons of floor space. The people who were WFH 2-3 days a week before the pandemic now come in once a week or even less. The people who were in the office 5 days a week before are coming in 2-3 days a week now (or at least that's the expectation that will gradually be enforced). Even the firms are looking at shared offices, hoteling, etc. to account for the fact that virtually nobody will be in a personal office 5 days a week in the future.

[AHLALA]

7 minutes ago, Jaggers said:

For the people who have been mostly working from home for the last 2.5 years, I don't think anyone is expecting people to come in daily. But I also don't think most places are going to switch to full-time permanent WFH if they haven't made that announcement already.

We are giving up tons of floor space. The people who were WFH 2-3 days a week before the pandemic now come in once a week or even less. The people who were in the office 5 days a week before are coming in 2-3 days a week now (or at least that's the expectation that will gradually be enforced). Even the firms are looking at shared offices, hoteling, etc. to account for the fact that virtually nobody will be in a personal office 5 days a week in the future.

Agreed, that's what I'm seeing as well.  

[easttowest]

I am going to keep going in in an effort to avoid hoteling. If they told me I both had to come in x days but also we were going to hotel, I’d quit. 

[Vizslaw]

@BlockedQuebecois  I'm not saying we're going to beat people into submission, but the nature of our practice makes its unnecessarily difficult to work 100% remotely. There are just times when being in person, if it's safe to do so, is preferable given the work required. Like @Jaggers said, the people who were in the office 5 days a week before are expected to be coming in 2-3 days a week, since we often conduct trials/hearings together. Reviewing disclosure with clients and preparing them for lengthy trials is less than ideal to do over Zoom, and more of those trials are now happening in-person. We're not beholden to our clients, but there is a strong preference to be meeting in person as a lot of the professionals we represent have been working in person from day one throughout covid.  

@PulpFictionI don't think it's an unreasonable proposition to want/expect your team to be in-person some of the time. I could have added more detail about that interview and person who we ruled out. It wasn't just not wanting to work in-person, it was that there were specific comments about not caring about being part of a team or collaborating, which was obviously a deal breaker for us. My bad for not being more clear, but yes we dodged a bullet and they probably did too...

My other comments assumed that OP was asking about "non-compliant" in a way that suggested that crowd would not return to their offices at all. I was having a hard time relating to that sentiment. Sounds like we have similar firms, in terms of size. Our firm has been 100% WFH since March 2020 with few exceptions. I know it can be done and to be fair, I don't think we will ever return to a 100% in person model. So, I'm aware there's no need to change and if that works for you and your firm then it's a great fit. But my experience has been different. Yes, WFH has been successful, in the sense that we are handling our files and (mostly) everyone's dockets went up year over year. But for me, it's been a challenge to maintain a busy litigation practice and be working remotely all the time. I don't know about your practice area(s), but I'm assuming that most of the criminal defence lawyers or civil litigators who are regularly in court/conducting hearings would feel similarly. I don't think the Crowns really have a choice other than being able to work remotely for prep days. So, I want to return in some hybrid model and work in an environment where the other lawyers do/feel the same. People can vote with their feet if they don't like that 🙂

We also downsized from our old office and were office-less during 2020 and into 2021. We bought a new office space which is perfect for our size. No more huge individual offices for everyone but some nice shared space and enough private office space for meetings, trial prep, etc. So at least there won't be hotelling or sharing with other firms.     

 

 

[Jaggers]

We went from individual offices to completely shared, non-assigned space sometime in the year before the pandemic. I think it was early summer. We went paperless at the same time. Overall I was a lot happier after we did that, though of course there was some adjustment to get used to, especially not being able to leave any paper out on a desk overnight, even if you were in the middle of something (we had arrangements if you actually needed a big doc review project or something where multi-day use of paper was unavoidable, of course).

[PulpFiction]

43 minutes ago, Vizslaw said:

-snip-

 

 

 I get what you're saying and I can see the merits of in-person interactions/working in the office with your colleagues. I hope I wasn't coming off as a dick earlier. 

I'm a criminal defence lawyer turned civil litigator, currently in a very busy office. It works for us, but doesn't necessarily mean it'll work for everyone. A lot of factors come into play. 

All good. Best of luck. 

Edited August 30, 2022 by PulpFiction

[Vizslaw]

3 hours ago, PulpFiction said:

 I get what you're saying and I can see the merits of in-person interactions/working in the office with your colleagues. I hope I wasn't coming off as a dick earlier. 

I'm a criminal defence lawyer turned civil litigator, currently in a very busy office. It works for us, but doesn't necessarily mean it'll work for everyone. A lot of factors come into play. 

All good. Best of luck. 

No offence taken and I didn't interpret anything being dick-ish lol. I could have been more precise and thought more before posting my initial reaction, so I earned some of the comments/reactions from you and others 🙂

Look kids - It's important to recognize when you're wrong, just not in court.

[KOMODO]

I like being in the office, but I am in the minority in my department, and it's less fun for me than it used to be because there are so few people here. Technically we are supposed to be in the office 2 days per week now, with an eventual final move to 3 days per week sometime in the fall/winter, and people on my floor do not currently seem to be hitting the requirement. I do hope people start coming in more often, but it's going to be up to the partners to set the tone in any department/at any firm, and everyone else will surely follow.

I see both sides of the argument - for me personally, I feel like @Vizslaw, people all used to come into the office every day, so it makes little sense to me that they would be so resistant to returning for 3 days a week. I feel way more productive in the office and I think it's easier for students and juniors to learn in person. On the other side of the coin, I understand the position that many of my colleagues take, which is basically that they are billing the same number of hours (or more) than they used to, and don't want to spend time commuting to the financial district. I'm just not as convinced that similar productivity now means that this works long-term for training and culture and development. I also live much closer to the office than most people, so the calculus is different for me. I have relatively little time for people who moved extremely far away during the pandemic to get a huge house, and now don't ever want to come into the office - call me old school, but that's a decision people made and they should have expected that some degree of normalcy would eventually be restored. It's a complex issue though because in debating the ease with which people can return to the office, we necessarily get into the personal financial decisions they've made about transit and housing. 

[TheAEGIS]

Word from above is you can't keep your office if you're coming in less than 3 days a week. Management has also made it pretty clear it'll be an uphill battle to get approval for 100% WFH. 

As for me, I like coming into the office. I've been coming in here 3-5 days/week for a few months now. I have a routine that works. But I also don't live very far away and I shudder at the thought of sharing or doing the hoteling thing. I like my privacy. That said, it's incredibly easy to WFH. A little while ago I took my laptop home to finish up some work and I didn't make it back in the rest of the week. I found that I started work earlier and worked later. Also went to the fridge a lot more. WFH is incredibly seductive and for that reason, it must be vigorously resisted. 

Both sides of the issue have been canvassed and I'm sympathetic to both. But personally, I'd rather see people in the office . The connections I built before the plague stopped me from going crazy and feeling isolated. Many of our new hires have struggled to built those connections remotely. I the benefits of face to face interactions outweigh the cost. 

My $0.02.

[Pantalaimon]

10 hours ago, KOMODO said:

I do hope people start coming in more often, but it's going to be up to the partners to set the tone in any department/at any firm, and everyone else will surely follow.

This is my peeve at the moment. I have a big preference for WFH but I will play ball as directed. However, it wears thin when the justification is mentorship/culture and it's nothing but associates in the office.

[Jaggers]

12 minutes ago, Pantalaimon said:

This is my peeve at the moment. I have a big preference for WFH but I will play ball as directed. However, it wears thin when the justification is mentorship/culture and it's nothing but associates in the office.

We have the same issue too. I prefer working from the office, but it's pretty empty these days, so what's the point? And while I like that I see a few of my friends when I do go it, it would be nice to see some of the executives too, as I much prefer updating them via a casual chat around our desks rather than writing up an email and reading it several times before clicking send, just to make sure it's perfect.

[easttowest]

Fortunately in my group the only absentee partners are the ones who were absent pre-pandemic too, so nothing’s really changed.

[Rashabon]

I've wanted to go back in more but I'm doing renovations so it's not as convenient. I probably will try next week to get back in on a regular schedule. This week was a write off and a ton of people are on vacation anyway.

[dyel]

Our firm mandated back in office 5 days a week for junior lawyers and 4 days in office for senior lawyers.  Some people are very upset about this.