September 2022 - Big Law Salaries?

[Repudiatory Breach]

On 12/4/2023 at 5:45 AM, Bob Jones said:

You’re welcome to keep waiting, I don’t much care to debate people who hide behind their keyboards to make aggressive and “stupid fucking comments.” 
 

I shared an observation, that’s it. It was never my intention to get into an argument or debate, although I gather that’s impossible in an online forum composed of lawyers/trolls. 
 

My concern here is that the people on this forum are too easy to become aggressive, rude, and uncivilized jerks when they hear a comment they don’t like, and are unable to have any reasonable discussion, resulting in this forum turning into an echo chamber. It’s also unfortunate there’s a very clear double standard with the Mods. 
 

Whether you agree with my observation or not does not bother me and nor do I care, I simply wanted to share what was going on, and what is very rotten about some firm practices. 

I was curious what Canadian Biglaw salaries were these days and got caught up in this thread. Great read. Had to make an account.

Bob Jones, your comments throughout this thread rang true to me. As someone who planned to go US after a Canadian clerkship I decided to stay following an unsolicited courtship by a Seven Sister. They promised great work, which I got, but I couldn't stomach the low pay nor their refusal to properly compensate top performers. As you noted Bob, Canadian Biglaw firms often refuse to deviate from lock-step associate compensation no matter how many partners advocate for an increase in that associate's pay (in my case over a dozen). Canadian Biglaw bonuses are another joke.

I eventually left despite near promises of future partnership (something firms are pushing out further and further too). I more than doubled my income. Best decision I could have made and I'd advise any Canadian law students or Biglaw associate with opportunities to work at a US firm (or elsewhere) to do so. Heck, go work in house for your American clients and make significantly more too.

I'm not sure what prompted the defense of Canadian Biglaw firms and their quasi price fixing in here. I heard straight from the HR head of associates at my previous firm that this is exactly their intention.

Diplock, I remember loving your posts at lawstudents.ca as a student (truly) but I never understood you to be a Biglaw guy. I could be wrong, but where did this passion for Canadian Biglaw partners and their excessive greed and exploitation of associates come from? I'm all for free markets, but what's going on with associate compensation in Canadian Biglaw firms is disgusting imo.

 

 

Edited January 31, 2024 by Repudiatory Breach

[JackoMcSnacko]

8 hours ago, Repudiatory Breach said:

I was curious what Canadian Biglaw salaries were these days and got caught up in this thread. Great read. Had to make an account.

Bob Jones, your comments throughout this thread rang true to me. As someone who planned to go US after a Canadian clerkship I decided to stay following an unsolicited courtship by a Seven Sister. They promised great work, which I got, but I couldn't stomach the low pay nor their refusal to properly compensate top performers. As you noted Bob, Canadian Biglaw firms often refuse to deviate from lock-step associate compensation no matter how many partners advocate for an increase in that associate's pay (in my case over a dozen). Canadian Biglaw bonuses are another joke.

I eventually left despite near promises of future partnership (something firms are pushing out further and further too). I more than doubled my income. Best decision I could have made and I'd advise any Canadian law students or Biglaw associate with opportunities to work at a US firm (or elsewhere) to do so. Heck, go work in house for your American clients and make significantly more too.

I'm not sure what prompted the defense of Canadian Biglaw firms and their quasi price fixing in here. I heard straight from the HR head of associates at my previous firm that this is exactly their intention.

Diplock, I remember loving your posts at lawstudents.ca as a student (truly) but I never understood you to be a Biglaw guy. I could be wrong, but where did this passion for Canadian Biglaw partners and their excessive greed and exploitation of associates come from? I'm all for free markets, but what's going on with associate compensation in Canadian Biglaw firms is disgusting imo.

 

 

"might as well get paid if I'm going to be fucked regardless"

[MickeyHaller]

On 1/31/2024 at 1:17 AM, Repudiatory Breach said:

I was curious what Canadian Biglaw salaries were these days and got caught up in this thread. Great read. Had to make an account.

Bob Jones, your comments throughout this thread rang true to me. As someone who planned to go US after a Canadian clerkship I decided to stay following an unsolicited courtship by a Seven Sister. They promised great work, which I got, but I couldn't stomach the low pay nor their refusal to properly compensate top performers. As you noted Bob, Canadian Biglaw firms often refuse to deviate from lock-step associate compensation no matter how many partners advocate for an increase in that associate's pay (in my case over a dozen). Canadian Biglaw bonuses are another joke.

I eventually left despite near promises of future partnership (something firms are pushing out further and further too). I more than doubled my income. Best decision I could have made and I'd advise any Canadian law students or Biglaw associate with opportunities to work at a US firm (or elsewhere) to do so. Heck, go work in house for your American clients and make significantly more too.

I'm not sure what prompted the defense of Canadian Biglaw firms and their quasi price fixing in here. I heard straight from the HR head of associates at my previous firm that this is exactly their intention.

Diplock, I remember loving your posts at lawstudents.ca as a student (truly) but I never understood you to be a Biglaw guy. I could be wrong, but where did this passion for Canadian Biglaw partners and their excessive greed and exploitation of associates come from? I'm all for free markets, but what's going on with associate compensation in Canadian Biglaw firms is disgusting imo.

 

 

This makes a lot of sense. As a young associate I already find this to be true. Just meeting the minimum billable target results in the firm earning roughly $600,000 per associate yet associates make less than a quarter of that. I understand the firm brings the business but Canadian associates are paid so little for the value they provide. Factor in the cost of living in Vancouver and Toronto, and associates in these cities are not getting ahead with all the work they put in.

If you don’t mind me asking: (1) how was the process of going from Canada to the US for big law; (2) how is the workload in the US vs Canada; and (3) do you feel your Canadian work experience prepared you adequately for the work in the US?

[Cool_name]

11 hours ago, MickeyHaller said:

This makes a lot of sense. As a young associate I already find this to be true. Just meeting the minimum billable target results in the firm earning roughly $600,000 per associate yet associates make less than a quarter of that. I understand the firm brings the business but Canadian associates are paid so little for the value they provide. Factor in the cost of living in Vancouver and Toronto, and associates in these cities are not getting ahead with all the work they put in.

If you don’t mind me asking: (1) how was the process of going from Canada to the US for big law; (2) how is the workload in the US vs Canada; and (3) do you feel your Canadian work experience prepared you adequately for the work in the US?

I hate to be blunt, but just because you earn $600k for a firm does not mean your work is worth $600k. 
 

Your rates are inflated as a result of working with the more senior lawyers. The files exist because of the senior lawyers. As a junior associate you are replaceable. There is an eager crop of graduates ready each year to take your spot. 
 

Don’t get me wrong, fight for every cent you are worth, just don’t let yourself get delusions of grandeur based on the total net revenue next to your name in your billing system. 

[Diplock]

4 minutes ago, Cool_name said:

I hate to be blunt, but just because you earn $600k for a firm does not mean your work is worth $600k. 
 

Your rates are inflated as a result of working with the more senior lawyers. The files exist because of the senior lawyers. As a junior associate you are replaceable. There is an eager crop of graduates ready each year to take your spot. 
 

Don’t get me wrong, fight for every cent you are worth, just don’t let yourself get delusions of grandeur based on the total net revenue next to your name in your billing system. 

I am NOT a Big Law guy, and I do not advise anyone to take my insight on that level. But in addition to this point, above, I always want to remind anyone who's multiplying their own billable by hours worked and thinking "I create this much value for the firm!" really has to take a wider lens. It's not just the involvement of more senior lawyers. It's also the unbilled time from assistants, staff, etc. It's the overhead of the firm and the infrastructure that goes into it, it's everything. And that doesn't mean you're overpaid just as it doesn't mean you're underpaid. There's a real discussion to be had here. But it sure doesn't start with a bare look at your billings.

The one way this is obvious to me, perhaps more than most associates, is that I do work for myself and pay all the bills myself. Believe me, I kind of wish I pocketed every dollar I bill also, or even close to it. I don't. Just saying.

[Repudiatory Breach]

On 2/4/2024 at 10:19 PM, MickeyHaller said:

This makes a lot of sense. As a young associate I already find this to be true. Just meeting the minimum billable target results in the firm earning roughly $600,000 per associate yet associates make less than a quarter of that. I understand the firm brings the business but Canadian associates are paid so little for the value they provide. Factor in the cost of living in Vancouver and Toronto, and associates in these cities are not getting ahead with all the work they put in.

If you don’t mind me asking: (1) how was the process of going from Canada to the US for big law; (2) how is the workload in the US vs Canada; and (3) do you feel your Canadian work experience prepared you adequately for the work in the US?

Does this site have private messages? I'd be happy to share my experience but I don't want to share too much on the main page and risk doxing myself given the information I previously shared.

[Repudiatory Breach]

On 2/5/2024 at 10:04 AM, Cool_name said:

I hate to be blunt, but just because you earn $600k for a firm does not mean your work is worth $600k. 
 

Your rates are inflated as a result of working with the more senior lawyers. The files exist because of the senior lawyers. As a junior associate you are replaceable. There is an eager crop of graduates ready each year to take your spot. 
 

Don’t get me wrong, fight for every cent you are worth, just don’t let yourself get delusions of grandeur based on the total net revenue next to your name in your billing system. 

Let's not overlook the articling scam where Canadian articling students are paid ~$70k CAD to article while their Biglaw US counterparts are getting ~$295k CAD (after USD to CAD conversion) on day 1 (over 4X the compensation!) and often paying less in taxes. 

Let's also not overlook that not all Biglaw partners are pulling their weight and earning their compensation either. There are definitely equity partners who've decided to mail it in who are still collecting huge chunks of profit.

Edited February 7, 2024 by Repudiatory Breach

[justsignmeupplz]

Lots of unrelated discussion making it hard to sift through this thread to find an up to date answer. What is the salary grid at a big law firm looking like nowadays? What is a 2022 call making this year and next at these firms?

[BlockedQuebecois]

56 minutes ago, justsignmeupplz said:

Lots of unrelated discussion making it hard to sift through this thread to find an up to date answer. What is the salary grid at a big law firm looking like nowadays? What is a 2022 call making this year and next at these firms?

Did you try reading literally the second post in the thread? 🙂 

[Cool_name]

On 2/10/2024 at 7:39 AM, justsignmeupplz said:

Lots of unrelated discussion making it hard to sift through this thread to find an up to date answer. What is the salary grid at a big law firm looking like nowadays? What is a 2022 call making this year and next at these firms?

Here you go: 

It was in the Jobs subcategory. 

 

[justsignmeupplz]

21 hours ago, Cool_name said:

Here you go: 

It was in the Jobs subcategory. 

 

I guess my question was not clear. What month do the salaries advance in Toronto? It makes a note in Calgary it’s earlier, but I guess I’m just not sure. Is the first 6 months a stub that is assumed into your first year? 

[BlockedQuebecois]

If only the second post in this thread existed: 

Quote

In Toronto, first year associates are first years for about 16 months, from September in their year of call through January in their year of call plus two (i.e. a 2021 call gets their first raise in January 2023).

 

Edited February 12, 2024 by BlockedQuebecois

[Bob Jones]

52 minutes ago, justsignmeupplz said:

I guess my question was not clear. What month do the salaries advance in Toronto? It makes a note in Calgary it’s earlier, but I guess I’m just not sure. Is the first 6 months a stub that is assumed into your first year? 

Around Jan-Feb, so if you join part way through the year you’ll have to wait to the following year for the raise, which is more or less comparable to why other industry - i.e, annual raises (if any). 

[BlockedQuebecois]

4 minutes ago, Bob Jones said:

Around Jan-Feb, so if you join part way through the year you’ll have to wait to the following year for the raise, which is more or less comparable to why other industry - i.e, annual raises (if any). 

[Emphasis added.]

This is incorrect. Toronto big law associates will, generally speaking, receive lockstep raises every year even if they have only joined their firm part-way through the year. The exception is the first year, where no Toronto big law associates receive a raise because you remain a first-year associate for ~16 months in Toronto. 

Raises are more discretionary, but I would suggest that if you are moving between big law firms and not negotiating a pro-rata bonus (at a minimum), you are a poor negotiator. 

[Bob Jones]

9 hours ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

[Emphasis added.]

This is incorrect. Toronto big law associates will, generally speaking, receive lockstep raises every year even if they have only joined their firm part-way through the year. The exception is the first year, where no Toronto big law associates receive a raise because you remain a first-year associate for ~16 months in Toronto. 

Raises are more discretionary, but I would suggest that if you are moving between big law firms and not negotiating a pro-rata bonus (at a minimum), you are a poor negotiator. 

Perhaps we misunderstood each other. 

My comment is in reference to if someone makes a lateral move early in the year, but after the annual raises are given out. So if someone joins a firm at the end of Feb or early March as an example but the annual raises were given out at the end of Jan-mid Feb, there probably would not be a "lock step" jump the raise they just missed out on. They would have to wait the following year for a raise, which is consistent with any other job. 

This could of course vary firm-to-firm, but that is what I have heard based upon my friends on Bay.

Edited February 13, 2024 by Bob Jones

[BlockedQuebecois]

6 hours ago, Bob Jones said:

Perhaps we misunderstood each other. 

My comment is in reference to if someone makes a lateral move early in the year, but after the annual raises are given out. So if someone joins a firm at the end of Feb or early March as an example but the annual raises were given out at the end of Jan-mid Feb, there probably would not be a "lock step" jump the raise they just missed out on. They would have to wait the following year for a raise, which is consistent with any other job. 

This could of course vary firm-to-firm, but that is what I have heard based upon my friends on Bay.

Yeah, this is incorrect. At firms with lockstep raises, you are paid based on year of call. That doesn’t change because you moved firms in February. 

This isn’t really something that varies from firm-to-firm. It’s standard practice amongst top firms in Toronto. I suspect you have either misunderstood your friends or they are not truly at Bay Street firms. 

Edited February 13, 2024 by BlockedQuebecois

[Dinsdale]

23 hours ago, justsignmeupplz said:

I guess my question was not clear. What month do the salaries advance in Toronto? It makes a note in Calgary it’s earlier, but I guess I’m just not sure. Is the first 6 months a stub that is assumed into your first year? 

New pay grid for the year is figured out and announced by the associates committee sometime between late January to early March, depending on the firm, but always retroactive to January 1 in each year, with "first year" being roughly 16 months in length (i.e. September 1, 2023 to December 31, 2024, for example).  So the short answer is "on January 1".

Edited February 13, 2024 by Dinsdale

[C_Terror]

On 2/7/2024 at 6:33 PM, Repudiatory Breach said:

Let's not overlook the articling scam where Canadian articling students are paid ~$70k CAD to article while their Biglaw US counterparts are getting ~$295k CAD (after USD to CAD conversion) on day 1 (over 4X the compensation!) and often paying less in taxes. 

Let's also not overlook that not all Biglaw partners are pulling their weight and earning their compensation either. There are definitely equity partners who've decided to mail it in who are still collecting huge chunks of profit.

Assuming you don't have a family yet, if you don't want to become a big law partner, and have the opportunity to go to the States, it's a no brainer to do so. 

2x+ the pay, exposure to much bigger deals and you get the street cred (unfortunately true) for working in the "big leagues" for when you ever want to come back to Canada.

[Jaggers]

Most people have some non-work related reason to prefer one country over the other (family, friends, culture, etc.) but if it's just about the money, going to the US is a no-brainer. Even if you intend to come back to Canada long term.

[easttowest]

On 2/12/2024 at 8:31 PM, Bob Jones said:

Perhaps we misunderstood each other. 

My comment is in reference to if someone makes a lateral move early in the year, but after the annual raises are given out. So if someone joins a firm at the end of Feb or early March as an example but the annual raises were given out at the end of Jan-mid Feb, there probably would not be a "lock step" jump the raise they just missed out on. They would have to wait the following year for a raise, which is consistent with any other job. 

This could of course vary firm-to-firm, but that is what I have heard based upon my friends on Bay.

I can’t imagine any scenario where, for example, a fourth year call lateralled in early March and accepted the rate for third year calls because they happened to be outside the building when the raises were “given out” in February. I suggest that it would never happen outside of unusual circumstances. 

They wouldn’t receive a “raise”, but their starting salary would be in line with the other fourth year calls who had just been bumped up from the third year rate. 

[canuckfanatic]

1 hour ago, easttowest said:

I can’t imagine any scenario where, for example, a fourth year call lateralled in early March and accepted the rate for third year calls because they happened to be outside the building when the raises were “given out” in February. I suggest that it would never happen outside of unusual circumstances. 

They wouldn’t receive a “raise”, but their starting salary would be in line with the other fourth year calls who had just been bumped up from the third year rate. 

I agree - I experienced this twice. Went from a suburban firm to a high end boutique early in the year and was given the lock step salary of my year of call. I later went to Big Law, again early in the year, and they gave me the same lock step salary as everyone else in my year of call.

I had been given my lock step raise from the boutique before lateralling to the Big Law firm. Why would anyone lateral between Big Law firms if it meant a step backward in salary?

[easttowest]

3 minutes ago, canuckfanatic said:

I agree - I experienced this twice. Went from a suburban firm to a high end boutique early in the year and was given the lock step salary of my year of call. I later went to Big Law, again early in the year, and they gave me the same lock step salary as everyone else in my year of call.

I had been given my lock step raise from the boutique before lateralling to the Big Law firm. Why would anyone lateral between Big Law firms if it meant a step backward in salary?

As you know, nobody would…

Like, someone actually might for different/better work, different group etc, but the reality is they wouldn’t have to because it just wouldn’t be what was offered by the hiring firm. 

 

 

 

[Rashabon]

I've usually only seen people knocked back a year if they took time off practice for a reason or if they are coming from the States and/or lateralling as a senior associate in their partnership year but are told they'll need to wait a year to apply.

[Dinsdale]

8 hours ago, Rashabon said:

I've usually only seen people knocked back a year if they took time off practice for a reason or if they are coming from the States and/or lateralling as a senior associate in their partnership year but are told they'll need to wait a year to apply.

Yes, the more senior you get, the less "locked" lock-step gets.  Firms (some firms anyway, not necessarily all) will start looking for reasons to differentiate their associates who are technically in the same year, for all kinds of reasons -- gaps or lateralling from a less prestigious firm/different practice area for some, superstar performance by others.  It can be a bit of a minefield if the stated policy is lock-step.  Bonussing is obviously a better way to reward the star performers, but you can't really use a bonus to hold someone back a year.

Edited April 1, 2024 by Dinsdale

[C_Terror]

On 3/31/2024 at 12:49 PM, Rashabon said:

I've usually only seen people knocked back a year if they took time off practice for a reason or if they are coming from the States and/or lateralling as a senior associate in their partnership year but are told they'll need to wait a year to apply.

Do people coming back from the States generally get knocked down a year because of missing articling? It makes sense, but my experience has been that a 4th year operating in NY is the same as a 4th year operating in TO in terms of responsibilities, drafting etc.