Perception of LLM after JD?

[socialjusticewarrior]

I wanted to gather the general opinions/perceptions of one completing an LLM sometime after JD? Is it completely useless if you don’t care to go into academia? It seems that LLMs aren’t as common for American JDs, wondering if it were similar in Canada? 

[Conge]

15 minutes ago, socialjusticewarrior said:

I wanted to gather the general opinions/perceptions of one completing an LLM sometime after JD? Is it completely useless if you don’t care to go into academia? It seems that LLMs aren’t as common for American JDs, wondering if it were similar in Canada? 

Perception of whom? Employers? 

If we're just talking about employers, then I wouldn't say it's "useless", especially if working in some niche areas, but employers just want to know you can do the job, and actual experience trumps all else; the LLM will add little value IMHO if you don't already have the experience to do the job. 

LLMs aren't common outside of academia; they aren't exactly a rarity, but definitely not common. 

[PzabbytheLawyer]

They're almost necessary to work at the international institutions abroad. Which suck, but it is what it is.

[t3ctonics]

I've known a few people who got them, some right after their JD or LLB and some after a few years of practice.

One just didn't land the kind of articling job he wanted out of law school (union-side labour), so he worked in a general litigation role for a few years, then went back to school for an LLM focusing on labour. He published a few articles and taught a few law school courses but never got on the tenure track. He was then hired on by a union-side labour firm and has now built his own successful practice. The LLM was definitely helpful for this one.

Another clerked at the superior court level then went and got a very academic LLM, not with any particular career goal - basically just out of academic interest. He then joined a biglaw litigation group for a few years and is now a Crown constitutional lawyer. I don't think the LLM was necessary or even relevant for this one's career, other than perhaps further developing general research, analysis, and writing skills (but probably not as practice-specific as working as a lawyer would have been - academic writing is different from factum writing).

Another worked in corporate biglaw for a couple of years, then after some brief job-hopping ended up at a city's in-house team. After a few years he got an LLM with a focus on municipal law (at least his thesis was on municipal law), then got a much higher paying private practice job in the field. He says the combo of experience and LLM is what got him the job.

Another was specifically interested in international trade law. Right after law school he went to China to do an LLM and... I haven't heard from him since. He's disappeared from all social media and googling his name brings up nothing about him.

I haven't mentioned any of the law profs I've known, but all had LLMs and most had doctorates as well. That's to be expected for academia.

Anyways, in general I don't think an LLM is much help for practice, but it can help you get your foot in the door for specialized practice areas, and I've heard of established lawyers doing an LLM to reset and switch practice areas.

[Govrap89]

thoughts about getting an LLM at a top american school in order to get access to the NY market? 

This is coming from somone who doesnt go to U of T so cant do NYC OCIs

[Turtles]

1 minute ago, Govrap89 said:

thoughts about getting an LLM at a top american school in order to get access to the NY market? 

This is coming from somone who doesnt go to U of T so cant do NYC OCIs

I had the same Q, but was discouraged by the discussion on reddit, see e.g.,:

My intuition is it's more valuable, more cost effective, and less risky to work in big law in Canada then lateral over.

 

[Govrap89]

6 minutes ago, Turtles said:

I had the same Q, but was discouraged by the discussion on reddit, see e.g.,:

My intuition is it's more valuable, more cost effective, and less risky to work in big law in Canada then lateral over.

 

I'm personally wondering because Im in a ldr with someone in nyc. Also have a 2L big law job in Toronto. For me it may make sense so just trying to get good grades to keep that door open once I graduate and see if I can get a scholarship... we shall see. I agree it costs way too much without a scholarship.

Edited November 18, 2022 by Govrap89

[Turtles]

18 minutes ago, Govrap89 said:

I'm personally wondering because Im in a ldr with someone in nyc. Also have a 2L big law job in Toronto. For me it may make sense so just trying to get good grades to keep that door open once I graduate and see if I can get a scholarship... we shall see. I agree it costs way too much without a scholarship.

Maybe also try lateralling as a First Year Associate after articling instead of hireback? (Although who knows what the market will look like and I would love to hear how competitive lateralling that early would be.) While I know of a few who have done it straight from articling, based on their backgrounds they were very far from ordinary above-average applicants.

[GoBigOrGoHome]

On 11/18/2022 at 11:25 AM, Govrap89 said:

I'm personally wondering because Im in a ldr with someone in nyc. Also have a 2L big law job in Toronto. For me it may make sense so just trying to get good grades to keep that door open once I graduate and see if I can get a scholarship... we shall see. I agree it costs way too much without a scholarship.

I have been speaking with someone about working in NYC and he suggested the easiest way is to get a JD somewhere, and then go to a reputable American law school for your LLM. He was initially speaking in the context of someone who goes to law school in the UK or Australia and suggested not wasting time in Canada with a Bachelor Degree first (but this didn't apply to me). 

He said it is so much easier to get into an LLM program at Columbia, Harvard, etc. than it would be to do your JD there.

You should have an easier time lateralling by starting off in BL in Canada (dependent on the impact of the recession). But if you can't make the move, consider an LLM at a top tier school. 

[Ben]

22 minutes ago, GoBigOrGoHome said:

I have been speaking with someone about working in NYC and he suggested the easiest way is to get a JD somewhere, and then go to a reputable American law school for your LLM.

The easiest way to do it is get a JD somewhere, and get hired by a law firm in New York, which is not exactly a rarity these days. I don't think I know of a single Canadian JD at any of the firms with which I'm familiar in NY who did an LLM to get there. 

[BlockedQuebecois]

On 11/18/2022 at 2:05 PM, t3ctonics said:

Another was specifically interested in international trade law. Right after law school he went to China to do an LLM and... I haven't heard from him since. He's disappeared from all social media and googling his name brings up nothing about him.

Are we all just going to ignore the fact that @t3ctonics’s friend definitely got disappeared by the Chinese government? 

[sarcasticlemon]

one piece of advice I've heard from a Lawyer is you can use an LLM to change practice area after articling. Without an LLM that can be difficult to do. So you could keep it in your back pocket and practise for a few years in your chosen field and see if you like it, if not do the LLM to change course. 

[PzabbytheLawyer]

Changing practice areas really isn't difficult enough to warrant an llm. Maybe if you're mid career.

[123]

2 hours ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

Are we all just going to ignore the fact that @t3ctonics’s friend definitely got disappeared by the Chinese government? 

These are the perils you must accept when you begin an LLM.

[Psychometronic]

On 11/14/2022 at 5:05 AM, socialjusticewarrior said:

I wanted to gather the general opinions/perceptions of one completing an LLM sometime after JD? Is it completely useless if you don’t care to go into academia? It seems that LLMs aren’t as common for American JDs, wondering if it were similar in Canada? 

An LLM isn't worth the effort and money if you want to practice as a lawyer in Canada. It might pad your resume the way a MA would, but work experience will likely matter more. In the time it takes to do an LLM, you can be building your skills practicing instead.

It's more of a competitive edge if you want a clerkship or a if you're shooting for academia.

EDIT: Even if you're changing practice areas, work experience will still matter more.

Edited November 27, 2022 by Psychometronic