North Dakota

[Oilers fan]

Hello everyone, 

I have been debating recently if i should start applying to law school. I have not yet decided the kind of practice i want to follow but i am very open to different opportunities. One of the main schools that peaked my interest is North Dakota law school. Anyone has an experience going to that law school?

[LMP]

Do you intend to practice in North Dakota? If so it's a great choice. 

Do you intend to practice anywhere outside of the Dakotas? It's a bad choice. 

[Yogurt Baron]

32 minutes ago, Oilers fan said:

One of the main schools that peaked my interest is North Dakota law school.

Why?

[Avatar Aang]

A school with a 51% employment rate 9 months after graduation for the Class of 2016, and ranked #144 out of 194 US law schools in 2015, peaked your interest? Do you come from a wealthy background where you have money to blow?

[Oilers fan]

I live in MB and I was offered a scholarship there and also the tuition rate for Manitobans is not calculated as an international student. 

The other reason I thought it was cool is North Dakota is part of the UBE, uniform bar exam which can also allow me to practice law in different parts of the states. 

[efrefgg]

there aren't any better mirrors 😞

Edited July 6, 2021 by efrefgg

[luckycharm]

37 minutes ago, Oilers fan said:

I live in MB and I was offered a scholarship there and also the tuition rate for Manitobans is not calculated as an international student. 

The other reason I thought it was cool is North Dakota is part of the UBE, uniform bar exam which can also allow me to practice law in different parts of the states. 

Where do you want to practice?

[Oilers fan]

My interest is more in personal injury. I was thinking of trying to gain experience mainly in NY and eventually moving back. I am trying to connect with people who have gone to ND

[LMP]

32 minutes ago, Oilers fan said:

My interest is more in personal injury. I was thinking of trying to gain experience mainly in NY and eventually moving back. I am trying to connect with people who have gone to ND

Look even within the US that's a bad choice of school. Did you see the 51% unemployment rate someone posted above? More than half of the graduates of the school you want to attend cannot find work in the legal industry. Does this seem like a strong school? And you want to pay more money than you would to go to a Canadian school. 

You know why you won't find anyone to connect with about this? Because I'd be willing to bet you could count on one hand the number of practicing lawyers in Canada who went to law school there. And the prospects in New York are just as bad if not worse for a lawyer out of this school. 

 

[CheeseToast]

Is it one of those scam scholarships where you have to effectively be in the top 5% of the class to actually get it?

[Toad]

1 hour ago, Oilers fan said:

My interest is more in personal injury. I was thinking of trying to gain experience mainly in NY and eventually moving back. I am trying to connect with people who have gone to ND

I would imagine trying to find work in NYC as a Canadian who graduated from North Dakota law school would be a nightmare. That's on top of the general nightmare that graduating from a law school with a 50% employment rate would already entail. 

How large is your scholarship? If it is a multi-year scholarship are there any conditions on it? 

 

 

[BlockedQuebecois]

Look, I know I should let this go and there are bigger problems in this thread, but it’s late, I’ve had a few beers and this is driving me crazy: 

It’s “piqued”. 

A shitty school from the more forgettable Dakota piqued your interest.

Also, don’t go to this school. 

[Yogurt Baron]

Why I asked "why", before, it wasn't just to sass you - there's a pattern I've been through myself and seen others go through, and I just wanted to make sure you weren't falling into it.

For me, when I realized that my 0.004/161 wasn't going to get into a Canadian law school, I started flailing about at U.S. options---but at a specific kind of U.S. options. Bottom-of-the-barrel, but not name-brand bottom-of-the-barrel. Low-ranked, low admission standards, but not famously bad; no-reputation schools in plausibly idyllic environments where maybe I could start fresh and be the big fish in the small pond, and then, hey, after I come first in the class at Not Famously Bad American University, it'll be easy to come back to Canada and be a superstar!

I've seen this play out with a lot of people, this idea that if you go to a small U.S. school that isn't garishly bad, everything will work out. And I think it depends what you mean by "everything", "work", "out", and I guess "will". But if you're like me (God help you) and you're thinking that this is your best option to become a lawyer in general...well, I don't know your circumstances well enough to know if it is, but it's certainly not a great option.

 

[Telephantasm]

8 hours ago, Oilers fan said:

I was thinking of trying to gain experience mainly in NY and eventually moving back.

This sounds like a pipe dream. I work in NY. I know of absolutely zero ND students. Now, that could very well be because I am in BigLaw. But jumping across the continent from ND to a small NY personal injury firm seems like a whole different kind of pipe dream. At least BigLaw hires massive classes from broad swaths of the country. I cannot imagine that a small personal injury firm would take an ND candidate over, say, a Brooklyn, Cardozo, or CUNY graduate who has the benefit of proximity. 

[luckycharm]

I don't think you should waste time / money going to a law school with such low admission standards.

https://www.ilrg.com/rankings/law/view/154

What GPA do you need to get into UND law school?

Admissions Statistics

Admissions Statistics2020-2017

LSAT Score (Median)148-149

LSAT Score (25th-75th percentile)145-152  145-152

GPA (Median)3.17    3.18

GPA Range (25th-75th percentile)2.86-3.50  2.90-3.45

[2345434]

I agree with what everyone else here has said. As a fellow Manitoban I want to add, however, that UND isn't an entirely terrible option in some very limited cases.

I know a number of people who went to UND. Some have quite well-paying jobs. The alumni network in Winnipeg seems pretty solid, so if you want to come back it's probably an OK choice overall, though obviously U of M or another Canadian school would be better. That being true, I think you'd be effectively locked out of doing "biglaw" at TDS/MLT Aikins/Pitblado if you went there unless you have pre-existing connections you could rely on, but that doesn't appear to be what you want to do. School reputation is a bigger deal in the States than here, but regionalism/proximity seems to still play a role as well. If you want to do PI, which, for whatever reason, is often seen as a less glamorous practice area, you might be able to land a decent job in Minnesota as I've noticed that a number of UND grads work there. Granted, I have no idea how much money these people make. If you were able to get a scholarship from UND I imagine you'd probably be competitive at Canadian schools or higher-rated American schools. What are your stats?

In summation: if you want to work in Winnipeg and can't get into U of M, it's a decent enough back-up option. Likewise, it might be okay for Minnesota and some other parts of the Upper Midwest, but the University of Minnesota is an upper-tier 1 school, so UND is still not ideal in that case either. Otherwise, I would steer clear of it.

Edited July 7, 2021 by 2345434

[Oilers fan]

Thanks everyone for your feedback. My stats are LSAT 155 and 3.908/4.5 scale.

[johnny.rahmbo]

17 minutes ago, Oilers fan said:

Thanks everyone for your feedback. My stats are LSAT 155 and 3.908/4.5 scale.

Get your LSAT up and i feel like youd be a lock at some Canadian schools. Even with connections not sure why youd wanna go to this school. How much are you getting in scholarship funds? Feel like Canadian school would still be cheaper/just as expensive with farrrr more recognition in Canada. Not sure how you would make it to NY unless you have some wild connections. 

I think get your LSAT up and re-apply. 

[Renerik]

26 minutes ago, Oilers fan said:

Thanks everyone for your feedback. My stats are LSAT 155 and 3.908/4.5 scale.

Retake and reapply. They don't tell you this but the mandatory health insurance will cost around 5K USD alone. 

[NowOrNever]

28 minutes ago, Oilers fan said:

Thanks everyone for your feedback. My stats are LSAT 155 and 3.908/4.5 scale.

You don't want to stay in Manitoba?

Calculate your AGPA and index.

You are probably OK for Manitoba law school:

https://umanitoba.ca/student/admissions/media/law_bulletin.pdf

[Oilers fan]

3 hours ago, NowOrNever said:

You don't want to stay in Manitoba?

Calculate your AGPA and index.

You are probably OK for Manitoba law school:

https://umanitoba.ca/student/admissions/media/law_bulletin.pdf

How do I calculate it?

[2345434]

https://www.lsac.org/choosing-law-school/find-law-school/canadian-law-schools/university-manitoba

Rough guess: 72.3. I say “rough guess” because I rounded up all the numbers while doing the calculation. You should double-check for yourself. When I got admitted early offers were going to anyone who got an index score of 75.something (I forget what) and from perusing the U of M section of lawstudents.ca forums when they were still active what I gathered is that the index score for early admittance has gone down since then. It may have gone up because of more people applying because of not finding work due to Covid, but I’m not really sure. Even if you didn’t get in on the first round, you have the advantage of being a resident and very well may get in off the waitlist if worse comes to worst. Have you applied to U of M yet?

You might also consider just retaking the  LSAT in which case you would likely be a shoe-in. The LSAT seems like a love it or hate it thing. I did, probably, average by admitted law students’ standards with my score (161), but I actually really enjoyed studying for the LSAT. More fun than law school itself. Conversely, I know someone who was dragged down by her score and absolutely hated it and ended up attending UND for that reason. She’s doing well now, but had a hell of a time securing articles.

If you’re intent on rolling the dice, it would be better to do so about a possible acceptance to U of M than a secure acceptance, but potentially more limited job prospects by going to UND.

 

Edited July 8, 2021 by 2345434

[Rashabon]

On 7/7/2021 at 12:52 PM, 2345434 said:

If you were able to get a scholarship from UND I imagine you'd probably be competitive at Canadian schools or higher-rated American schools. What are your stats?

 

I just want to harp on this for a moment - this isn't sound logic. If you breathe, you get offered a scholarship at these bottom feeder schools. But being offered a scholarship and maintaining/accessing the benefits of that scholarship are not the same thing. A lot of these schools have predatory practices that basically preclude anyone from maybe getting a semester or two at a discount.

[NowOrNever]

On 7/7/2021 at 8:38 PM, Oilers fan said:

How do I calculate it?

Are you serious?

Section 4:

Selection Process A. Calculation of the Adjusted Grade Point Average (AGPA) A Grade Point Average (GPA) is generally understood to be all courses completed multiplied by the weight per course. For the purpose of admission to the Faculty of Law, an applicant’s GPA will be adjusted when one or more of the thresholds presented in the table below are met. The GPA calculation for law school admission will be referred to as the AGPA.

The AGPA is calculated using graded credit hours, whether completed on a full or part time basis, in undergraduate or graduate programs, or in Regular, Evening or Summer Sessions. Courses completed outside of a degree will also be included, providing they are from an accredited institution, and at university degree level. Applicants whom have completed 60-89 credit hours will have their AGPA calculated on all graded credit hours completed. Applicants with more than 90 credit hours completed will have their AGPA adjusted according to the following thresholds:

 

https://umanitoba.ca/student/admissions/media/law_bulletin.pdf

  

[2345434]

Possibly, I haven’t looked into what the grade requirements are that their scholarships require. Regardless, the OP has posted his stats and they are, in fact borderline for admission to the U of M (and probably also Lakehead, Windsor, U of S, UNB and TRU). If he got a few points higher on the LSAT he very well may get an offer. 
 

The fact that tuition at UND is already comparable to what he would be paying at any of the prairie law schools even absent a scholarship due to the reciprocity agreement between the ND and MB governments and the fact that UND is a public university also gave me the impression it was not quite as trashy as say, Cooley, but perhaps I’m wrong.

Edited July 10, 2021 by 2345434