Has anyone ever gotten "stuck" in a legal field they didn't like?

[Hegdis]

I think our last prize for the weirdest post on the forum was a cheese wheel and a handful of sod. 

[Diplock]

I have so many questions now. I guess most of them relate to how @SNAILS found this sad, oppressed migrant in need of legal help. I mean, did he approach you on the street and somehow communicate in sign that he needed legal assistance? Did you meet him at a Starbucks after you used the line "you know, I'm in law school" on the cute barista, and got roped into helping her roommate? If either of those things happened, that's cool. If, however, you got assigned to help this guy because you were volunteering at a clinic or something...you know, a clinic set up by the people you claim don't care, who assigned you to help him, and then assumed because it was your job to help him they didn't need someone else to help him...I'm not sure what point you think you're proving about how the system doesn't work.

Also, if the guy got Legal Aid (and it's good that he did) I assume an actual lawyer stepped in, accepted the certificate, and did the job of representing this guy in Court. So the intervention you made in this guy's life was basically making a couple of phone calls to straighten out Legal Aid. Now don't get me wrong - dealing with Legal Aid is hella annoying. It's a good think you assisted with this, and while I doubt he would have been deported in the end without competent counsel getting attached to the issue somehow, I'm sure you saved him some bullshit and confusion. But maybe let's keep it in perspective.

[SNAILS]

It was not a legal aid clinic, but the guy was on my intake list at a small private law firm. Once I discovered he did not have legal aid or ability to pay, my job was to move on and spend time on our actual clients.

@Diplock . Yes, my contribution to helping him was quite small. A couple of phone calls to straighten out his Legal Aid. (etc).

My point is this. The law students that talk a big game about helping fight racism and access to justice are nowhere to be found when there is an actual need for action.

 

 

[SNAILS]

10 hours ago, realpseudonym said:

...

He started with the premise of there being SJWs working on bay street. Okay, fine. But what does the African migrant story have to do with woke law students? Why would some corporate summer student get involved in this? Was the expectation that woke people should defend this guy because he's from Africa? Why would that matter?

After talking such a big game, at least some of the SJWs ought not to be on Bay Street but ought to be out putting their money where their mouth is. 

The fact that he's from Africa matters because people who claim to be progressive are always talking about intersectionality - how a person's race an culture affects poverty, systemic barriers to justice, language barriers, and repercussions from being charged and convicted of a crime.  I believe in this case he was targeted by an all white police force who presumed his guilt based on scantly evidence because he is an African refuge.

[CleanHands]

1 hour ago, SNAILS said:

The fact that he's from Africa matters because people who claim to be progressive are always talking about intersectionality - how a person's race an culture affects poverty, systemic barriers to justice, language barriers, and repercussions from being charged and convicted of a crime.  I believe in this case he was targeted by an all white police force who presumed his guilt based on scantly evidence because he is an African refuge.

I recognize that you are not at liberty to discuss privileged and confidential information on a public forum, and thus we can't get into the basis for your beliefs as to what happened in this case, but I am somewhat confused by this given that you said he ultimately pled guilty to simple assault (and thus acknowledged that he did commit the essential elements of an assault, per 606(1.1)).

So either he did, in fact, do something wrong, or he had shockingly incompetent representation once he was able to obtain counsel.

Edited December 18, 2022 by CleanHands

[Pecan Boy]

3 hours ago, SNAILS said:

people who claim to be progressive are always talking about intersectionality - how a person's race an culture affects poverty, systemic barriers to justice, language barriers, and repercussions from being charged and convicted of a crime.  I believe in this case he was targeted by an all white police force who presumed his guilt based on scantly evidence because he is an African refuge.

You sound kinda woke right now dude

[Hegdis]

5 hours ago, SNAILS said:

It was not a legal aid clinic, but the guy was on my intake list at a small private law firm. Once I discovered he did not have legal aid or ability to pay, my job was to move on and spend time on our actual clients.

@Diplock . Yes, my contribution to helping him was quite small. A couple of phone calls to straighten out his Legal Aid. (etc).

My point is this. The law students that talk a big game about helping fight racism and access to justice are nowhere to be found when there is an actual need for action.

 

 

What precisely could a law student do for him outside of the supervision of a lawyer? And if connecting him to legal aid is all you did, why would your politics matter?

You seem to have a real conviction that you’re out there all by yourself because this guy ended up in front of you and not anyone else. You really aren’t. The fact that you aren’t aware of what other people are doing doesn’t mean they are doing nothing. Forget being woke - you need to wake up. 
 

(I have made an entire career out of being a SJW, by the way, and I have defended many diverse and racialized people against many serious and at times sexual crimes, so your posts are coming across as …cute.)

[123]

Law school is the time for preparation and training to help people as lawyers. It’s fine — even appropriate — to focus on learning, rather than individually helping people with legal matters while you’re still a student. 

I agree with Hegdis. Lots of students are making a difference through their clinics and other extracurriculars / volunteering. They might just not have told you about it. I didn’t necessarily broadcast what I was involved with to my classmates. Doesn’t mean that I wasn’t doing stuff. 

I still don’t understand how other students were supposed to know about this guy. Were they working at your small firm? Did this guy contact students at your school? Did you blab about this guy to your classmates? 

Edited December 18, 2022 by realpseudonym

[GGrievous]

Wrote a paper on the merits of capitalism. Hates it when students trade in their beliefs for money. 

Edited December 18, 2022 by Barry

[Diplock]

18 hours ago, SNAILS said:

It was not a legal aid clinic, but the guy was on my intake list at a small private law firm. Once I discovered he did not have legal aid or ability to pay, my job was to move on and spend time on our actual clients.

@Diplock . Yes, my contribution to helping him was quite small. A couple of phone calls to straighten out his Legal Aid. (etc).

My point is this. The law students that talk a big game about helping fight racism and access to justice are nowhere to be found when there is an actual need for action.

 

 

I'm not here to debate hypotheticals, but like Hegdis I have some concerns about what you think is normal in other contexts and what you think is normal in context of your own workplace, right now.

In legal firms that take Legal Aid (of which there are many) it is very common for clients to come without a certificate in hand. I don't know why you imagine it's your job to simply dismiss any client who doesn't have that, but if you've been told to approach intake that way then broadly speaking, I'd describe your actions as follows. The expectation of your job is that you would serve your would-be client at a level that is incompetent and unprofessional, and you exceeded the expectations of your job by rising all the way to basic competence and basic professionalism on your own. Which is, in fact, a good thing. Kudos. I just don't know why you think it's so extraordinary.

Also, I'm still confused like others about why you are observing one person who's obviously lost in the legal system and concluding, based on that observation, that everyone who claims to care about helping people who are lost are obviously all full of shit. I mean, I'll give you a way bigger concession than your individual observation here. There are many, many people who are lost, confused, and badly screwed right now without adequate legal representation. Just like there are people who are homeless, and people who suffer all manner of social and personal ills. Do you look at homeless people who are observably homeless and say "anyone who claims they care about homelessness is clearly full of shit because look at that guy over there?" And if you help that guy, does that prove no one else would have been willing to do so? I'm just...still really confused by that idea.

Anyway, the biggest takeaway I wanted to add is that the guidelines you're following on intake clearly suck. And if you really want a lesson on good or really bad lawyering (I have no way to know which it is - right now) you should follow up with the lawyer who assisted his plea. If the client would insist he didn't commit a crime at all, but pled to simple assault, you didn't help the guy by getting him on your firm's list - you should have sent him to a competent lawyer. If the client may have committed sexual assault but got it pled down to simple assault due to deficiencies in the case, that's a great result and you'll want to know how it was done. If the client is actually guilty of simple assault and not sexual assault, it's good he was found guilty of only what he's guilty of. But I can't describe a crime that actually happened as a misunderstanding due to his race, immigration status, etc. If a crime actually occurred, it's still a crime. And one of these three scenarios I've just outlined must be the truth, here.

[SNAILS]

On 12/18/2022 at 11:25 PM, Diplock said:

Anyway, the biggest takeaway I wanted to add is that the guidelines you're following on intake clearly suck.

My orders from the boss are not to take any clients that can't pay or do not have legal aid. I'm undecided if that policy sucks or if its just the boss's (legitimate) way of running a profitable business. 

On 12/18/2022 at 11:25 PM, Diplock said:

Also, I'm still confused like others about why you are observing one person who's obviously lost in the legal system and concluding, based on that observation, that everyone who claims to care about helping people who are lost are obviously all full of shit.

...

Do you look at homeless people who are observably homeless and say "anyone who claims they care about homelessness is clearly full of shit because look at that guy over there?" 

I dunno. You are basically saying that my sample size is too small. It is possible that a larger scientific study would reveal that law students who talk a lot about social justice issues do in fact do a lot to advance social justice issues rather than pursue big money on Bay Street. That just has not been my observation. 

Since you bring up the homeless, I'll add that it's been my observation that it is often very conservative, religious people (not just Christian, but Muslim and Jewish people) who are the first to help.

On 12/18/2022 at 2:08 PM, Barry said:

Wrote a paper on the merits of capitalism. Hates it when students trade in their beliefs for money. 

It's the hypocrisy and not the pursuit of money I'm criticizing. 

On 12/18/2022 at 11:12 AM, realpseudonym said:

I still don’t understand how other students were supposed to know about this guy. Were they working at your small firm? Did this guy contact students at your school? Did you blab about this guy to your classmates? 

I've never actually mentioned that guy other than on this forum. It's not even about that one guy. There are countless people out there that need help. 

To explain my point from the opposite direction, if a law student truly had their mind set to helping the disadvantaged, they should have no trouble finding disadvantaged people. 

On 12/18/2022 at 7:10 AM, CleanHands said:

... but I am somewhat confused by this given that you said he ultimately pled guilty to simple assault (and thus acknowledged that he did commit the essential elements of an assault ...

As far as I can tell, he committed simple assault.

On 12/18/2022 at 11:25 PM, Diplock said:

If the client is actually guilty of simple assault and not sexual assault, it's good he was found guilty of only what he's guilty of. But I can't describe a crime that actually happened as a misunderstanding due to his race, immigration status, etc. If a crime actually occurred, it's still a crime.

He shouldn't have been charged with the more serious offence. I think if he spoke English, he could have explained himself much better. It actually amazes me how long he was hung up in the court system before someone that actually spoke his language got his side of the story.

 

On 12/18/2022 at 11:00 AM, Hegdis said:

What precisely could a law student do for him outside of the supervision of a lawyer? And if connecting him to legal aid is all you did, why would your politics matter?

I'm not trying to offend anyone. And I'm certainly not trying to offend you. I'm sure you've done lots of stuff to help people. 

But social justice types at law school lay it on pretty thick when it comes to how much they care about social justice issues. They can barely make a sandwich without talking about how ashamed the bread should be for being white. They think misgendering a person unintentionally in a worse offence than deliberately and maliciously insulting someone for  having a belief that is not liberal. 

So if I talk to a few dozen people and figure out that there is no apparent correlation between talking about social justice issues and actually helping people, then I totally get to criticize them for that.