UBC vs Alberta + $$

[ananonymousonion]

Hypothetically, if I'm interested in pursuing a criminal law career, and don't really have a strong preference for where I want to practice, would one school give better outcomes than another (maybe in terms of government placements)?

[LMP]

I'd say it is a matter of money. Criminal law doesn't have the highest monetary returns so the less debt you have the better.

UBC is the cheaper school but the scholarship from Alberta goes a long way. 

Cost of living, including rent, is going to be higher in BC. Which would have me leaning Alberta if I were you. 

[Renerik]

Biased given I'm a UofA student-

I had to make the same decision. What swayed me was:

1. It would cost me less to rent right next to the school by going to UofA than it would if I got a similar apartment an hour's commute away from UBC. Getting an apartment in Edmonton is super easy. Doing so in Vancouver is a rat race.

2. SLS, UofA's crim clinic. In my first month of law school I got to appear I court as an agent for someone else. You don't do anything serious or complicated, but it's a good introduction to what it's like being in the courtroom.

3. When I compared UofA+$$ to other schools, UofA would be the cheapest option to do my JD unless I stayed with family and went to DAL.

[ananonymousonion]

Thanks for all the replies!

@LMPI'm just a little concerned that if I change my mind and think criminal law isn't for me, then UBC might give me more opportunities (clerking, biglaw networking, etc)? I've always thought of UofA as a good regional school with more regional influence.

@RenerikThe thing is, I don't know whether I'll get a UBC scholarship, because they don't hand them out until you accept! Based on your experience, do you think you would've gotten UBC money if you'd decided to go?

Also, SLS is definitely super interesting. Is it competitive to get into? Would you say basically everyone got some sort of court experience in the program?

[Renerik]

2 hours ago, ananonymousonion said:

@RenerikThe thing is, I don't know whether I'll get a UBC scholarship, because they don't hand them out until you accept! Based on your experience, do you think you would've gotten UBC money if you'd decided to go?

Also, SLS is definitely super interesting. Is it competitive to get into? Would you say basically everyone got some sort of court experience in the program?

I don't have my spreadsheet anymore but after accounting for rent, tuition, etc, I was better off financially going to UofA in each scenario even if UBC gave me enough $ to cover my first year (I wasn't expecting any either. The way UBC calculates GPA was not in my favour). Except for the weather, my QoL is greater at UofA than what it would have been at a similar price point at UBC.

If you want to volunteer with SLS, you'll get a spot, it's not like other schools where students need to compete. SLS also has greater jurisdiction than other law clinics - I don't know if any other clinics in Canada allow you to appear in provincial court. If you choose not to do criminal work, SLS has a civil division, a wills and estates project, a Trans ID clinic... etc etc

2 hours ago, ananonymousonion said:

I'm just a little concerned that if I change my mind and think criminal law isn't for me, then UBC might give me more opportunities (clerking, biglaw networking, etc)? I've always thought of UofA as a good regional school with more regional influence

I think the difference is overblown. UBC does better in the Vancouver recruit and UofA does better in the Edmonton and Calgary. UBC is more "prestigious", but that won't do much for your chances re: clerking. If you can land a clerkship from UBC, you should be able to land one from another school. Choosing a school based on clerkship chances is a questionable strategy.

[Patient0L]

15 hours ago, ananonymousonion said:

Hypothetically, if I'm interested in pursuing a criminal law career, and don't really have a strong preference for where I want to practice, would one school give better outcomes than another (maybe in terms of government placements)?

I don’t know how you would account for this in a spreadsheet but… Check out the ubc innocence project. It’s top notch plus the prof who runs it SUPER well connected with crown/judges and generous to students (ie, gov jobs):

https://allard.ubc.ca/community-clinics/ubc-innocence-project-allard-school-law

UBC is a bargain. Without being too tacky, in my experience bursaries + scholarships yielded a positive balance but YMMV. Tho, if you’ve been accepted by now your stats are obviously better than mine 👏🏻. If you are worried about COL, apply for student housing, like, *NOW*, right this instant, immediately…

You can PM me if you have any more UBC questions. 
 

Can’t speak to Alberta… There are definitely a lot of students from Alberta here tho. (I’m just assuming that you are from Alberta.) Admissions could probably put you in touch with some of them if you’re having trouble making a decision.

Edited December 24, 2022 by Patient0L

[Mal]

I made this decision in 1L, and chose UofA to be able to go away for school. But then attended 3L at UBC on letter of permission. Both schools offer similar careers, honestly the major difference is that UBC has a nicer building, more classes and more polished students (also less friendly). 

[Whist]

Having already studied there for some of my undergrad, I didn't apply to UBC for law school. Even if I'd had slam-dunk stats, the cost of living was already prohibitive for me, and I'd already been there so there was no "getting away" aspect for me. UBC is very much a commuter school. The law school is a smaller faculty so it might very well be different, but I felt a distinct lack of community at UBC because of the commuter aspect. Even if you apply for student housing, plan as if you're not going to get in - housing in Vancouver is expensive and hard to come by. I had no desire to set career roots in BC because of the cost (at least not in the lower mainland). I have no knowledge of how Allard's financial aid works, so someone else can pitch in for that. I started at UofA before the tuition was raised so mine is charged at the old cost, but they've been extremely generous and bursaries have covered my tuition every year so far. 

It's really common for students to say they want to pursue something like crim, but then try to simultaneously leave their options as open as possible for Biglaw/etc. The truth is there is no school that perfectly balances these given respective tuition or living costs. In terms of clerkships, ditto what Renerik said. You can do Biglaw from either school, although you'll be better connected to Vancouver and probably Toronto from UBC and Calgary/Edmonton from UofA. If you want crim, UofA's SLS project is a great way to get involved and get connections. You can work with the Innocence Project at UofA, although it's through a small-enrollment course for upper years and not through SLS. 

If you're not okay with dressing up like the michelin man to ward off bone-marrow drying cold sometimes, go to UBC. If you're fine with it, UofA is the more cost-effective choice. Both places have nice summers.

Edited December 24, 2022 by Whist

[Byzantine]

I’m a 2L at allard. It has something called the law students legal advice program that you can start volunteering at in 1L. It sounds similar to SLS. Anyone can get into it. You get intakes and help low income clients with a variety of legal issues. There are some criminal files (no risk of jail time) that could can seek out if you’re interested. They also offer limited paid 1L summer positions. You’re likelihood of getting one of these positions depends on how much you volunteered during the year. I found it was a really good experience, got to get into court quite frequently (starting from October of 1L) and was able to do a very simple trial in the summer. 
 

Allard also has an upper year criminal clinic and as mentioned the innocence project.
 

tuition is reasonable and financial aid is quite generous as well if you’re low income. Can PM me for more details.  
 

I would also say that the law school has better community than undergrad. You get placed with a small group of 50 students that you do all your 1L classes with. Lots of social events as well. 

Edited December 24, 2022 by Byzantine

[ananonymousonion]

Hi thank you for all the replies! I'll definitely PM a bit later @Byzantine@Patient0L

So from what I gather the schools are almost equivalent except for COL (UofA better) and weather (UBC better). And I guess if I wanted to do Biglaw they each have an edge in their own cities.

Does anyone have any insight into their local bar associations? How involved are they in networking/mentoring with students?

Also are any of the local legal markets more saturated than the other? Are crim law salaries about equivalent in each province starting out?

 

[Patient0L]

1 hour ago, ananonymousonion said:

Does anyone have any insight into their local bar associations? How involved are they in networking/mentoring with students?

Very.

[lawstudent69]

I would pay the premium for living in Vancouver and going to a global top 50 school and choose UBC if my finances were viable. I chose osgoode over UofT because of a scholarship and honestly I regret it because I wish I had the experience of going to UofT and the name it carries, especially while socializing with people outside of law. Given UBC’s small 12k tuition, I’d say it’s worth the brand price tag. 

[Whist]

2 hours ago, lawstudent69 said:

I would pay the premium for living in Vancouver and going to a global top 50 school and choose UBC if my finances were viable. I chose osgoode over UofT because of a scholarship and honestly I regret it because I wish I had the experience of going to UofT and the name it carries, especially while socializing with people outside of law. Given UBC’s small 12k tuition, I’d say it’s worth the brand price tag. 

There are plenty of valid reasons for OP to go to UBC. This isn't one of them. Choosing where to get a JD because people outside of law make slightly wider eyes hearing that school's name compared to another one is downright silly. You're going to law school to become a lawyer - why does impressing someone outside of the field who you'll never work for matter? Even if we're talking about clients, they care about the quality of your work, not the paper on your wall.

[CleanHands]

I've written about the pros of UBC for crim law before: 

 

I am a criminal lawyer and I certainly don't regret going to UBC one bit. Would absolutely do it again for the Innocence Project alone (reason I chose it in the first place).

With that said, as a prosecutor I have consistently been impressed with UofA's SLS students (I'm honestly not exaggerating when I say I've seen better work from some SLS students than some KCs) and they have consistently outperformed my LSLAP self from law school. With no offence to my fellow LSLAP alum, it's apparent that SLS provides better training (and both programs deal with the bread and butter of crim law while the IP is certainly more niche and divorced from what day-to-day crim practice looks like).

Edited December 25, 2022 by CleanHands