Mature Student

[llssspp]

Hi, 

 

I completed my Honours BA in Psychology (2016-2020), then worked with a non-profit for one year before attending business school to get my Master in Management (one-year program). Now, I am starting to work in management consulting and am considering law school. I will be 28 going into law school if I get accepted for September 2024. Is that too old for law school? Some forms say that big law firms won't hire anyone who would be 30 or 31 articling. Is that true? 

[Damages]

not true. You'll be fine.

[GoBigOrGoHome]

10 hours ago, llssspp said:

Some forms say that big law firms won't hire anyone who would be 30 or 31 articling. Is that true? 

Where specifically are you hearing this? Because if so, this is going to suck for me and those in my class that are older than me. 

[Turtles]

I know a number of big law articling students in their 30s with multiple kids...

Is it possible some firms discriminate on the basis of age or family status? Maybe. But I can say with confidence several firms welcome people of all stripes.

[llssspp]

8 hours ago, GoBigOrGoHome said:

Where specifically are you hearing this? Because if so, this is going to suck for me and those in my class that are older than me. 

On Reddit. There was a response. And one law student. It's unfounded, but a fear I had after hearing that. 

8 hours ago, Turtles said:

I know a number of big law articling students in their 30s with multiple kids...

Is it possible some firms discriminate on the basis of age or family status? Maybe. But I can say with confidence several firms welcome people of all stripes.

Thank you for saying that! So true. 

11 hours ago, Damages said:

not true. You'll be fine.

Thanks! 

[Hegdis]

Yeah I think mid to late twenties is the norm for students. 
 

I went to school with a guy in his fifties and he was hired on Bay. He had an impressive resume, obviously - but clearly his age didn’t preclude him from getting a job. 

[BlockedQuebecois]

I think there is probably an age at which some (if not most) firms will start to discriminate against applicants – both for fairly valid reasons related to the length of your career and for less valid reasons, such as concerns related to whether a forty year old with kids is going to be able to handle the first few years of practice, where you have almost no control over your schedule. 

But that age is not your early thirties. 

[easttowest]

The people on Reddit are very dumb. I went to law school at 29 and did just fine in the recruit. 

[llssspp]

12 minutes ago, easttowest said:

The people on Reddit are very dumb. I went to law school at 29 and did just fine in the recruit. 

 

29 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

I think there is probably an age at which some (if not most) firms will start to discriminate against applicants – both for fairly valid reasons related to the length of your career and for less valid reasons, such as concerns related to whether a forty year old with kids is going to be able to handle the first few years of practice, where you have almost no control over your schedule. 

But that age is not your early thirties. 

Thank you for saying this. 

36 minutes ago, Hegdis said:

Yeah I think mid to late twenties is the norm for students. 
 

I went to school with a guy in his fifties and he was hired on Bay. He had an impressive resume, obviously - but clearly his age didn’t preclude him from getting a job. 

Thank you for sharing this. 

[ruthlessfox]

Certain aspects of being a mature student can actually give you a leg-up in the recruit. Interviewers will talk to you about your work experience, whereas most K-JDs will only be able to speak about their summer jobs and extracurriculars. Being an older student can also give you perspective and greater clarity in terms of your career and life goals more generally, so you when you get asked "Why big law?" you can provide a more convincing answer and make it clear you are going in with your "eyes wide open". This is as opposed to younger law students who often bumble into big law positions and tap out after a year for work-life balance reasons.

[123]

41 minutes ago, easttowest said:

The people on Reddit are very dumb.

As a person on Reddit, I can confirm that we are dumb. 

[Professor Lupin]

23 hours ago, llssspp said:

Hi, 

 

I completed my Honours BA in Psychology (2016-2020), then worked with a non-profit for one year before attending business school to get my Master in Management (one-year program). Now, I am starting to work in management consulting and am considering law school. I will be 28 going into law school if I get accepted for September 2024. Is that too old for law school? Some forms say that big law firms won't hire anyone who would be 30 or 31 articling. Is that true? 

My background is similar to you, I chose to go through with law school. DM if you'd like to chat.

[Ramesses]

I went to law school roughly in the age range as you. I found getting interviews and the interviews themselves fairly easy. But it was harder proceeding through the process and getting offers. My personal observation is that younger students have more energy and time to grind and have less experience in other workplaces so they just accept legal industry conditions as they were. I think my work experience in labour and union relations (union side) did not help reassure them I would not start unionizing their law students haha.

[GoBigOrGoHome]

4 hours ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

I think there is probably an age at which some (if not most) firms will start to discriminate against applicants

I can't upload the PDF so I have copied some of the text from a document on Fasken's Toronto website so it lives here forever: 

 

The Mature Student and the Recruitment Process

“To make mistakes is human; to stumble is commonplace; to be able to laugh at yourself is maturity.”

─ William Arthur Ward (scholar, author, editor, pastor and teacher)

• Identify your skills and experience - apply them to a law setting
• Self-evaluate and determine your career goal - Bay Street, Boutique, Government, PIA
• Demonstrate flexibility
• Be a team player - convey willingness to learn from those more junior
• Networking Professional image

Laura Cooper

Mature students often bring solid life experience, judgment and yes, maturity, to the table. These are important strengths. Just as important is an ability to integrate with the other students and participate in your own way in the student experience at a firm. Also please remember that even though you have prior work experience, you are new to the practice of law. While at a firm, you and the firm are best served if you make the most of the opportunity to learn, learn, learn, and keep an open mind about what others, even those junior to you in age, can teach you about practice and the profession you are joining. It is therefore important during your job search that, in addition to highlighting your other strengths, you convey your willingness and ability to integrate and be a team player.

Elena Hoffstein

A person who comes to the law with life experience in addition to the legal skills taught at law school brings an extra perspective. Maturity brings wisdom and judgment not taught in school. These life skills are among your greatest assets.

Barbara Miller

It is a given that we should all be well versed in the law. What distinguishes an excellent lawyer from the crowd is the ability to provide practical, results-oriented advice. This skill grows with experience and maturity.

--------------------------------------------

Being completely honest, Laura's comment rubs me the wrong way and makes it clear to me that there is additional bias to the known ones of me being on a biological clock and a reduced level of energy compared to those in their 20s. It seems to imply that we in our 30s, 40s, etc. need to go the extra step and needing to be very forward how yes, we are willing to work with and learn from those that are younger than us, are flexible, and are team players.

Every day when I sit in class, I am in awe of how brilliant my classmates are. How emotionally mature they are. Yes I have way more work experience than most do, but that does not mean that I cannot and am averse from learning from my classmates. I learn from them every day. 

When I saw this document, it really turned me off of applying to Fasken because of the energy that comes through to me (not everyone will interpret it the same way I did). But I worry that other firms hold the same bias - but they haven't been as forward with theirs. 

[llssspp]

44 minutes ago, Ramesses said:

I went to law school roughly in the age range as you. I found getting interviews and the interviews themselves fairly easy. But it was harder proceeding through the process and getting offers. My personal observation is that younger students have more energy and time to grind and have less experience in other workplaces so they just accept legal industry conditions as they were. I think my work experience in labour and union relations (union side) did not help reassure them I would not start unionizing their law students haha.

Oh, I see. I will work in management consulting, so I hope they see that as a plus. Similar workplace environment and demands. I will have to make sure I have a lot of energy to get the work done well and grind. I think in terms of the workplace conditions in the legal industry, as long as I can convince them that I know what they are and want to be subject to them... it should work out (hopefully). That's the best I can do. 

12 minutes ago, GoBigOrGoHome said:

I can't upload the PDF so I have copied some of the text from a document on Fasken's Toronto website so it lives here forever: 

 

The Mature Student and the Recruitment Process

“To make mistakes is human; to stumble is commonplace; to be able to laugh at yourself is maturity.”

─ William Arthur Ward (scholar, author, editor, pastor and teacher)

• Identify your skills and experience - apply them to a law setting
• Self-evaluate and determine your career goal - Bay Street, Boutique, Government, PIA
• Demonstrate flexibility
• Be a team player - convey willingness to learn from those more junior
• Networking Professional image

Laura Cooper

Mature students often bring solid life experience, judgment and yes, maturity, to the table. These are important strengths. Just as important is an ability to integrate with the other students and participate in your own way in the student experience at a firm. Also please remember that even though you have prior work experience, you are new to the practice of law. While at a firm, you and the firm are best served if you make the most of the opportunity to learn, learn, learn, and keep an open mind about what others, even those junior to you in age, can teach you about practice and the profession you are joining. It is therefore important during your job search that, in addition to highlighting your other strengths, you convey your willingness and ability to integrate and be a team player.

Elena Hoffstein

A person who comes to the law with life experience in addition to the legal skills taught at law school brings an extra perspective. Maturity brings wisdom and judgment not taught in school. These life skills are among your greatest assets.

Barbara Miller

It is a given that we should all be well versed in the law. What distinguishes an excellent lawyer from the crowd is the ability to provide practical, results-oriented advice. This skill grows with experience and maturity.

--------------------------------------------

Being completely honest, Laura's comment rubs me the wrong way and makes it clear to me that there is additional bias to the known ones of me being on a biological clock and a reduced level of energy compared to those in their 20s. It seems to imply that we in our 30s, 40s, etc. need to go the extra step and needing to be very forward how yes, we are willing to work with and learn from those that are younger than us, are flexible, and are team players.

Every day when I sit in class, I am in awe of how brilliant my classmates are. How emotionally mature they are. Yes I have way more work experience than most do, but that does not mean that I cannot and am averse from learning from my classmates. I learn from them every day. 

When I saw this document, it really turned me off of applying to Fasken because of the energy that comes through to me (not everyone will interpret it the same way I did). But I worry that other firms hold the same bias - but they haven't been as forward with theirs. 

Thank you for sharing this! 

[llssspp]

21 minutes ago, GoBigOrGoHome said:

I can't upload the PDF so I have copied some of the text from a document on Fasken's Toronto website so it lives here forever: 

 

The Mature Student and the Recruitment Process

“To make mistakes is human; to stumble is commonplace; to be able to laugh at yourself is maturity.”

─ William Arthur Ward (scholar, author, editor, pastor and teacher)

• Identify your skills and experience - apply them to a law setting
• Self-evaluate and determine your career goal - Bay Street, Boutique, Government, PIA
• Demonstrate flexibility
• Be a team player - convey willingness to learn from those more junior
• Networking Professional image

Laura Cooper

Mature students often bring solid life experience, judgment and yes, maturity, to the table. These are important strengths. Just as important is an ability to integrate with the other students and participate in your own way in the student experience at a firm. Also please remember that even though you have prior work experience, you are new to the practice of law. While at a firm, you and the firm are best served if you make the most of the opportunity to learn, learn, learn, and keep an open mind about what others, even those junior to you in age, can teach you about practice and the profession you are joining. It is therefore important during your job search that, in addition to highlighting your other strengths, you convey your willingness and ability to integrate and be a team player.

Elena Hoffstein

A person who comes to the law with life experience in addition to the legal skills taught at law school brings an extra perspective. Maturity brings wisdom and judgment not taught in school. These life skills are among your greatest assets.

Barbara Miller

It is a given that we should all be well versed in the law. What distinguishes an excellent lawyer from the crowd is the ability to provide practical, results-oriented advice. This skill grows with experience and maturity.

--------------------------------------------

Being completely honest, Laura's comment rubs me the wrong way and makes it clear to me that there is additional bias to the known ones of me being on a biological clock and a reduced level of energy compared to those in their 20s. It seems to imply that we in our 30s, 40s, etc. need to go the extra step and needing to be very forward how yes, we are willing to work with and learn from those that are younger than us, are flexible, and are team players.

Every day when I sit in class, I am in awe of how brilliant my classmates are. How emotionally mature they are. Yes I have way more work experience than most do, but that does not mean that I cannot and am averse from learning from my classmates. I learn from them every day. 

When I saw this document, it really turned me off of applying to Fasken because of the energy that comes through to me (not everyone will interpret it the same way I did). But I worry that other firms hold the same bias - but they haven't been as forward with theirs. 

https://www.juriseducation.com/blog/how-old-is-too-old-for-law-school

 

This article also suggests that mature students have difficulty finding work post-graduation. However, mature students are defined as those who have been out of full-time studies for at least five years. That won't be me. I will, in terms of age, be 30, about to be 31 when I article. Hopefully, I will be 28 or 29 when I get a summer position. This is my concern with big law. Otherwise, I am sure medium-sized or smaller firms will be more flexible. Just a thought. I am hoping none of this matters, but I want to go into this with my eye wide open. 

[GoBigOrGoHome]

1 minute ago, llssspp said:

https://www.juriseducation.com/blog/how-old-is-too-old-for-law-school

This article also suggests that mature students have difficulty finding work post-graduation. 

There are some of my classmates that are also older students don't do the networking events, and I think it is to their detriment (unless they already have connections and know what area of law they want to go into). For some it could be because they are parents, some don't have the energy, some have other priorities, and some don't want to. 

I think that this is going to come back to bite them a year from now. I am not a hiring manager for a law firm, but what is becoming very apparent to me is that networking is important if you already have some areas of interest, and I have got the sense that it may even be able to offset some less than stellar grades if you have formed a strong enough connection with some partners at the firm who want you because of your prior experience. 

I am 30+ (anywhere between the range of 30-55) and I don't think I will have any issue finding a job because of the networking I have been doing. Time will tell but I have made the effort to go beyond casual conversations at the 10,000 1L firm or on-campus events that are happening. Going to school in the city I want to work in has made making connections a bit easier, but I have also reached out to people across the country directly, without first having interacted with their professional development team.

I would appreciate someone who has experience on the professional development teams to give us mature students some additional practical advice (or re-assurance that our age isn't as big of an issue as we think it is). 

[llssspp]

2 minutes ago, GoBigOrGoHome said:

There are some of my classmates that are also older students don't do the networking events, and I think it is to their detriment (unless they already have connections and know what area of law they want to go into). For some it could be because they are parents, some don't have the energy, some have other priorities, and some don't want to. 

I think that this is going to come back to bite them a year from now. I am not a hiring manager for a law firm, but what is becoming very apparent to me is that networking is important if you already have some areas of interest, and I have got the sense that it may even be able to offset some less than stellar grades if you have formed a strong enough connection with some partners at the firm who want you because of your prior experience. 

I am 30+ (anywhere between the range of 30-55) and I don't think I will have any issue finding a job because of the networking I have been doing. Time will tell but I have made the effort to go beyond casual conversations at the 10,000 1L firm or on-campus events that are happening. Going to school in the city I want to work in has made making connections a bit easier, but I have also reached out to people across the country directly, without first having interacted with their professional development team.

I would appreciate someone who has experience on the professional development teams to give us mature students some additional practical advice (or re-assurance that our age isn't as big of an issue as we think it is). 

Networking is important. You can mention speaking to people at the firm in your cover letters, and it shows the firm's actual interest. Also, for you... you learn which firm culture suits you best. That's really what it comes down to during in-firm interviews (second around). Firms want people who will stay and be committed to the firm. Hence, if you get along with the people and are similar it's good for both parties involved (you and the firm). I know some people who network a lot, and some that just don't. I think you should do whatever you think is necessary for you. If you feel comfortable networking with at least four people at each firm you are applying to, joining multiple clubs, and getting high grades (and more). Then do it! Be the candidate you want to be. 

Just now, llssspp said:

Networking is important. You can mention speaking to people at the firm in your cover letters, and it shows the firm's actual interest. Also, for you... you learn which firm culture suits you best. That's really what it comes down to during in-firm interviews (second around). Firms want people who will stay and be committed to the firm. Hence, if you get along with the people and are similar, it's good for both parties involved (you and the firm). I know some people who network a lot and some that don't. I think you should do whatever you think is necessary for you. If you feel comfortable networking with at least four people at each firm, you are applying to, joining multiple clubs, and getting high grades (and more). Then do it! Be the candidate you want to be. 

I don't think age should be an issue. I don't think they ask you, "how old are you?" I think it will come down to if you can get along with your cohort (people joining the firm at the same time as you) and the rest of the time. Personalities and values. Most firms tend to have very similar people in terms of personalities working there. They gel well together. I have some friends who went through recruit in November. They told me that even though they had 7 OCIs and then at least 4 in-firms during the in-firms it was clear who they should work with (or want an offer from). In the other interviews they could not gel with them, people. And where they ended up getting offers from are places that match their personalities. 

[VIPigeon]

I got a summer position at a top law firm, and did very well during the recruit in general (a lot of in-firms and interest) and I will be 34 when I graduate. All the firms seemed to appreciate my experience and I spoke openly about my two small children.

I actually think mature students have an advantage, if anything. None of the mature students I know had any problem during the recruits this year. 

[llssspp]

1 hour ago, VIPigeon said:

I got a summer position at a top law firm, and did very well during the recruit in general (a lot of in-firms and interest) and I will be 34 when I graduate. All the firms seemed to appreciate my experience and I spoke openly about my two small children.

I actually think mature students have an advantage, if anything. None of the mature students I know had any problem during the recruits this year. 

Thank you so much for sharing this!!!!!!

[Iwias]

I know of folks in their 40-50s restarting their career in law, so if they have a chance at making it, so do you. In fact, you have the upper hand because of your local experience and training, so no worries!

Edited February 3, 2023 by Iwias