Single or Dual? — US Citizen, Canadian PR, unsure about future career

[backtomac]

Hi, I'm a US citizen and Canadian permanent resident grateful to be in the position of choosing between Windsor's Single JD and Dual JD programs.

I'm passionate about law on both sides of the border, but I've heard that Windsor's single JD is slightly (or extremely?) more prestigious and competitive to get into than Dual JD.

If I get into any other Canadian JD program I'm picking it over either, BTW (to give you the idea that I am not *that* much more interested in American law than Canadian).

I understand that if I want to practice in the US it's not super difficult to get accredited in a given state if I take the bar, so maybe I should just pick single because it is slightly more prestigious.

Also, I don't really want to live/study in Detroit (no shade to anyone who is going to be studying there, just not my city).

If I could do everything I want to do, I would be a corporate lawyer in Toronto who does pro bono death penalty cases in the States and then goes on to be a judge in either country. Extremely unrealistic, I know. All this to say I don't even know if I want to work in civil or criminal law yet.

My main question is: is single much more reputable than dual? 

[LMP]

Forget about reputable, dual degree is expensive! Like very expensive. The value you get from it is low and American firms will not be impressed by Detroit Mercy in any meaningful way. 

I think you do single degree, save the money and if you really want to do something in the US after, do it by getting licensed there. Or if it takes a bit more credential based oomph, do an LLM at a strong American school. 

 

[backtomac]

33 minutes ago, LMP said:

Forget about reputable, dual degree is expensive! Like very expensive. The value you get from it is low and American firms will not be impressed by Detroit Mercy in any meaningful way. 

I think you do single degree, save the money and if you really want to do something in the US after, do it by getting licensed there. Or if it takes a bit more credential based oomph, do an LLM at a strong American school. 

 

thank you!!!! slightly unrelated: do you know if LLM looks at undergrad grades?

[LMP]

3 minutes ago, backtomac said:

thank you!!!! slightly unrelated: do you know if LLM looks at undergrad grades?

I think you submit them but I believe the focus is on law school marks. And sometimes on your legal career. 

But you'd have to check with the individual schools. 

[Renerik]

1 hour ago, backtomac said:

I understand that if I want to practice in the US it's not super difficult to get accredited in a given state if I take the bar

You should look into that for the state you want to practice in.

Some states like NY make It easy. Some states like California expect Canadians to have practiced in another state (NY) for 2+ years. Other states don't care and won't allow you to practice without a US JD. Some states make it a real pain even if you get an LLM.

Additionally, your goals are... lofty... and very unlikely to become a reality from windsor single or dual.

[backtomac]

3 minutes ago, Renerik said:

You should look into that for the state you want to practice in.

Some states like NY make It easy. Some states like California expect Canadians to have practiced in another state (NY) for 2+ years. Other states don't care and won't allow you to practice without a US JD. Some states make it a real pain even if you get an LLM.

Additionally, your goals are... lofty... and very unlikely to become a reality from windsor single or dual.

Thanks! I'll look into the states I'm interested in.

I'm a third year by the way, and I "skipped" 2nd year due to AP credits which likely made my application less competitive. Regardless, I understand that Windsor is not top-tier. I will be applying to transfer.

[QueensDenning]

11 minutes ago, backtomac said:

Thanks! I'll look into the states I'm interested in.

I'm a third year by the way, and I "skipped" 2nd year due to AP credits which likely made my application less competitive. Regardless, I understand that Windsor is not top-tier. I will be applying to transfer.

You're in your third year but skipped a year? So you only have two years of undergrad grades? If I were you I'd finish my degree and get as high of an LSAT score as possible, then apply to both Canadian and (higher ranked) US law schools and decide from there. 

[backtomac]

1 minute ago, QueensDenning said:

You're in your third year but skipped a year? So you only have two years of undergrad grades? If I were you I'd finish my degree and get as high of an LSAT score as possible, then apply to both Canadian and (higher ranked) US law schools and decide from there. 

Yes, I have 2 years of undergrad grades. I got a 169 (if I applied to the US I would maybe retake). Is there much of a difference between starting off at a great school vs transferring to a great school? I know transferring is difficult but so was getting into (any) law school with 2 years of grades, lol.

[QueensDenning]

6 minutes ago, backtomac said:

Yes, I have 2 years of undergrad grades. I got a 169 (if I applied to the US I would maybe retake). Is there much of a difference between starting off at a great school vs transferring to a great school? I know transferring is difficult but so was getting into (any) law school with 2 years of grades, lol.

Yeah there is a difference, the major one being that it is unlikely (statistically) that you'll be able to transfer. Also, I've been told that if you transfer, during OCI's your considered as an applicant from the school you did your 1L at (but not 100% sure about this). 

[backtomac]

18 minutes ago, QueensDenning said:

Yeah there is a difference, the major one being that it is unlikely (statistically) that you'll be able to transfer. Also, I've been told that if you transfer, during OCI's your considered as an applicant from the school you did your 1L at (but not 100% sure about this). 

You are not the first person to suggest that I finish my degree: my mother and some of my friends want me to do the same. Thank you for your feedback and I will seriously consider it

[FranksRedHot]

My two cents real quick:

A 169 is a great score, you clearly have academic abilities. Why not finish your degree and apply broadly, given your goals I agree with @QueensDenning. 

I think applicants do themselves a disservice by not completing their undergraduate degree. You may or may not use it in practice, but at a bare minimum it shows another level of committment to something, and gives you something to fall back on in the worst case scenario where you do not finish law school. 

There's no need at all to rush into law school, finish your undergrad, build maturity (helpful for law school), have a good time, party, travel, build a solid application, and then apply everywhere. 

[backtomac]

24 minutes ago, FranksRedHot said:

My two cents real quick:

A 169 is a great score, you clearly have academic abilities. Why not finish your degree and apply broadly, given your goals I agree with @QueensDenning. 

I think applicants do themselves a disservice by not completing their undergraduate degree. You may or may not use it in practice, but at a bare minimum it shows another level of committment to something, and gives you something to fall back on in the worst case scenario where you do not finish law school. 

There's no need at all to rush into law school, finish your undergrad, build maturity (helpful for law school), have a good time, party, travel, build a solid application, and then apply everywhere. 

Thank you tremendously for your feedback. To give you some more info, I have a downward trend in my GPA and lately have been struggling at my school (U of T). If I were to finish my degree, I would be transferring to a school a few provinces over and doing (likely) 2 years there.

I would be happy to start law school ASAP because by doing so I would be saving my parents at least one year's worth of rent & tuition. Just letting you know it's not super cut and dry. 

I do intend on reaching my goals, and I'm certain they will be just as lofty whether I pursue civil or criminal law, so with my parents' support, I will seriously consider finishing my degree before applying. 

[Bob Jones]

On 3/20/2023 at 2:38 PM, backtomac said:

Hi, I'm a US citizen and Canadian permanent resident grateful to be in the position of choosing between Windsor's Single JD and Dual JD programs.

I'm passionate about law on both sides of the border, but I've heard that Windsor's single JD is slightly (or extremely?) more prestigious and competitive to get into than Dual JD.

If I get into any other Canadian JD program I'm picking it over either, BTW (to give you the idea that I am not *that* much more interested in American law than Canadian).

I understand that if I want to practice in the US it's not super difficult to get accredited in a given state if I take the bar, so maybe I should just pick single because it is slightly more prestigious.

Also, I don't really want to live/study in Detroit (no shade to anyone who is going to be studying there, just not my city).

If I could do everything I want to do, I would be a corporate lawyer in Toronto who does pro bono death penalty cases in the States and then goes on to be a judge in either country. Extremely unrealistic, I know. All this to say I don't even know if I want to work in civil or criminal law yet.

My main question is: is single much more reputable than dual? 

I completed the dual program a few years ago - if you have the choice I’d pick the single JD program. 
 

The Dual Program is extremely expensive, and you’re not walking away with much “bang for buck.” You’re not getting twice the education, as a lot of your core 1L courses on either side will be highly rushed and expedited, in order to squeeze in the additional course load. You’re also not being teamed up with a particularly well ranked school, so it isn’t doing you any favours on your resume. Although the profs at UDM is great and it is very close to the border so it’s convenient. Further, if you’re looking to ever practice in the US, many states will recognize a Canadian JD and permit you to write their Bar, so you’re not getting any unique advantage there either. 
 

if the dual program was a JD/MBA with a more well ranked school like UMich then I could see the merits of it, but as someone who was in that program I just don’t see the benefit of it. Stick to an Ontario JD if you can (obviously if all you get into is dual then choose that it’s still a good education and gets you into Ontario) and save your money. 
 

Good luck. 

On 3/20/2023 at 2:41 PM, LMP said:

Forget about reputable, dual degree is expensive! Like very expensive. The value you get from it is low and American firms will not be impressed by Detroit Mercy in any meaningful way. 

I think you do single degree, save the money and if you really want to do something in the US after, do it by getting licensed there. Or if it takes a bit more credential based oomph, do an LLM at a strong American school. 

 

Agreed, but with a caveat that UDM and Dual is well recognized in the Detroit area so it may be somewhat helpful there but anywhere else not so ouch. 

Edited March 22, 2023 by Bob Jones
Typo

[LMP]

6 hours ago, Bob Jones said:

Agreed, but with a caveat that UDM and Dual is well recognized in the Detroit area so it may be somewhat helpful there but anywhere else not so ouch. 

Out of curiosity, does Windsor itself carry the same recogniztion in Detroit? Or does it all stem from UDM?

[erin otoole]

1 hour ago, LMP said:

Out of curiosity, does Windsor itself carry the same recogniztion in Detroit? Or does it all stem from UDM?

In Michigan you need to have a JD from and ABA school or request the bar examiner board find your school is "reputable". I never met a Canadian JD holder working on Detroit, but I'm sure they exist, seems like a big gamble when you can go to Wayne State, Michigan State, MichiganU, Detroit Mercy, or Cooley. I believe this murkiness leads to a lack of "recognition" given the hurdles to practice. 

Few of my interactions in Detroit knew of Windsor law. Alot of Canadians seem to think Americans care/know of Canadian things. They just don't really. 

In the auto sector many uwaterloo and uoft grads doing engineering though, even the rare uwindsor engineer here or there.