U of T v. U of A

[LStudent]

HELP! I’ve been bouncing back and forth on this for the last week and my deadline is next Friday. Adventure me wants to go to Toronto, sensible me says Alberta might be the better choice. Every hour or so the one prevails over the other. I don’t know where I want to practice. I might be interested in shooting for a clerkship at a higher court (possibly even the SCC if I do well enough). I don’t know that I wouldn’t be interested in big law but I do know that I am interested in criminal and constitutional matters. 
 

U of A

+ My family is in Edmonton and I love them very much.

+ I have some health issues with which having family support would help a lot 

+ scholarship

+ greater potential of future scholarships

+ family has a decent network with Edmonton lawyers

+/- could live at home, it’s a plus for financial and health reasons, a minus for independent adult reasons

+nature and car
+ felt comfortable at the welcome day

- what I’ve heard about the teaching style doesn’t shout top quality (large lectures in 1st year, Avoiding the Socratic method)

- I want a meaningful career and that might be more difficult here… cannot see myself doing real estate law in a small firm for example 

- if I did choose to live independently, debt would approach U of T levels (I’d estimate about 2/3 without significant scholarships due to the financial aid program at the U of T)

- I lived in Edmonton till 20 and always struggled to fit in/ feel like it was the place for me. 

- I don’t want to regret not shooting for the top

-long winters, and I’m not able to ski/skate/snowmobile etc to make the most of them. 

-when I think about living here forever I feel like I would be bored/ settling too soon
 

U of T:

+ “le top” (not sure how much this means more than the ego boost) *anyone know how they do in terms of SCC clerkships? I haven’t been able to find that info online- they seem to be well represented at Ontario court of appeals

+Profs/ academics seemed of higher quality based on cursory comparisons from both welcome days

+not everyone gets this chance

+ Adventure in a new city, lived in Montreal and loved it there so hoping for a similarly positive experience. Don’t feel ready to settle down yet and being single in Toronto sounds far more exciting than single in Edmonton 

+ great networking opportunity for big law in Toronto 

+ I won’t feel like I’m taking the easier option (being forced out of my comfort zone could be a good thing)

+Big Law bucks

+ New York option if I want to try for it

- stressful moving to a new city especially with health issue. Failure is more catastrophic.

-stressful vibes off of the school in general (read their student newspaper and it screamed “on edge cortisol brain bath”)

- less likely to be in the top of the class

- didn’t connect to the other admits at the welcome day (rich kid vibes) but that might just be luck of the draw as to who I spoke with

- looking at around $100k of debt

- living in less comfortable accommodations due to cost

- potential of being forced into a job I hate to pay my loans (I don’t know if I would like/want bay st)

- Would like to end up near my family eventually 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 26, 2023 by LSCS

[Renerik]

Teaching style

It's true, UofA professors generally don't subscribe to the Socratic method. Neither do most professors at other Canadian law schools (See fellow "le top" schools like UBC and Osgoode). This source says that only 15% of Canadian law professors use the Socratic method at all. There are no proven benefits to the Socratic method over similar instruction methods. In fact, Canadian legal education has moved away from the Socratic method. The prevalence of the Socratic method is, in my opinion, a terrible comparison point unless you specifically prefer that teaching style (the majority of students don't).

Each school has well known academics - See UofT's Roach (Criminal law) and Trebilcock (Law & Economics) - See UofA's Sankoff (Evidence) and Sprysak (Tax). It's not like UofT poaches the "best professors" to the detriment of every other school. Further, a lot of the best instructors at law schools are sessional instructors who practice in the day and teach a class here and there, not the better-known academics. The difference in quality of education is minimal, if not insignificant. 

Lastly, all 1L cohorts at UofA are ~60 students. My 1L courses range from 58-63 students per section. This is comparable to most other Canadian law schools. I can't speak to UofT's section size (though I doubt it's significantly different). 

Support network 

Law school is a time vampire. You're never topped up on it, always something due soon. I can't speak to your exact situation but there have been a few times that I've gone "damn, this would be a lot easier if I had my parents to help" - Be it help you move apartments, pick up an order, bring you somewhere, etc. If your health issues are significant, I'd put a lot of weight on the support potential from being closer to home. 

You say you want to end up near family in the long run - this won't be difficult if you go to UofT, but it could complicate things (Networking, articling, etc). You need to reconcile the feeling of boredom. Consider going on a vacation. 

Career choice

Alberta has two large legal markets - I wouldn't frame this issue as solely Edmonton vs Toronto. A lot of UofA graduates end up in Calgary. Toronto might have more complex and sophisticated files in the big law context, but you won't be relegated to "real estate in a small firm" if you stay in Alberta. Mind you, I think you need to re-evaluate what you consider to be a meaningful career - some small firms/soles make bank in seemingly mundane specialties, some of the work could be more purposeful to you than what you'd feel by helping two pharmaceutical companies merge, and some allow you to strike a great work-life balance. 

You're not going to be the medalist or clerk at the SCC. You're not the main character. Picking a school on SCC clerkship potential is an exercise in future disappointment. 

Final Thoughts

I don't think that picking UofA over UofT is a good decision in most cases, but given what you've written, it's what I'd recommend. You seem to want UofT for prestige potential and because you're afraid of the doors you might close by going to a non-#1 school. You don't particularly want to work in big law (where UofT sends the vast majority of their graduates), only mentioned Toronto's big law salary and weather as pros, and are clear that you want to live close to family (Edmonton). 

A few of my peers at UofA were accepted to other big name schools (UofT, Oz, UBC) but picked UofA for a variety of factors ranging from finances, family, course offerings, and more. None of us feel like we've closed any significant doors and are happy with our choices. 

[LStudent]

Thank you for your well thought out response. I appreciate your insights and analysis of what I wrote, especially with regard to some misconceptions I might have. This is a super valuable perspective and I’ll take what you have said seriously.

[QMT20]

14 hours ago, LStudent said:

U of T:

+ “le top” (not sure how much this means more than the ego boost) *anyone know how they do in terms of SCC clerkships? I haven’t been able to find that info online- they seem to be well represented at Ontario court of appeals

A few years ago they placed 7/36. I believe this year they placed 4/27 but I'd have to double check. For ONCA I've generally seen them around that range out of 19 clerks hired in total. They also place a couple of students at other appellate courts like BCCA and FCA every year as well. 

While you could read that as around 20/200 getting appellate level clerkships total, the reality is there's a lot of overlap between the students getting SCC clerkships and other appellate clerkships. Probably expect about 10-13 from each year to get appellate clerkships with 4-7 out of those clerks going on to the SCC. 

8 hours ago, Renerik said:

You're not going to be the medalist or clerk at the SCC. You're not the main character. Picking a school on SCC clerkship potential is an exercise in future disappointment. 

I agree with everything else in your post, and with the statement that "picking a school based on SCC clerkship potential is an exercise in future disappointment". 

However, I'm not sure I would put it as bluntly as telling someone they "wont be the medalist or clerk at the SCC". Somebody is going to be the medalist every year, and not everyone who clerks at the SCC has to be a medalist (especially if you're bilingual). It's competitive but not unobtainable if you're willing to put in the work for it. If you can get in the 10-13 or so in the class at U of T that land an appellate clerkship, you'll be competitive for an SCC clerkship (although interviews and offers aren't guaranteed for anyone). Same goes for U of A and whatever number at their class land appellate clerkships each year. 

[LStudent]

11 hours ago, QMT20 said:

A few years ago they placed 7/36. I believe this year they placed 4/27 but I'd have to double check. For ONCA I've generally seen them around that range out of 19 clerks hired in total. They also place a couple of students at other appellate courts like BCCA and FCA every year as well. 

While you could read that as around 20/200 getting appellate level clerkships total, the reality is there's a lot of overlap between the students getting SCC clerkships and other appellate clerkships. Probably expect about 10-13 from each year to get appellate clerkships with 4-7 out of those clerks going on to the SCC. 

I agree with everything else in your post, and with the statement that "picking a school based on SCC clerkship potential is an exercise in future disappointment". 

However, I'm not sure I would put it as bluntly as telling someone they "wont be the medalist or clerk at the SCC". Somebody is going to be the medalist every year, and not everyone who clerks at the SCC has to be a medalist (especially if you're bilingual). It's competitive but not unobtainable if you're willing to put in the work for it. If you can get in the 10-13 or so in the class at U of T that land an appellate clerkship, you'll be competitive for an SCC clerkship (although interviews and offers aren't guaranteed for anyone). Same goes for U of A and whatever number at their class land appellate clerkships each year. 

Yeah the clerkship thing isn’t the deciding factor by any margin, just a thing I wanted to consider. I won’t know if I’ll be in a position to shoot that high till grades start coming in and, should I be, I probably would be at either school. Thanks though appreciate the input 

[LegallyDani]

U of T.  It’s a rare and special opportunity to get in there, you have the rest of your life to live in Edmonton if that’s what you want to do when you graduate. 

[Whist]

9 hours ago, LegallyDani said:

U of T.  It’s a rare and special opportunity to get in there, you have the rest of your life to live in Edmonton if that’s what you want to do when you graduate. 

Lol. Toronto isn't going anywhere either. 

All other Canadian law schools are wretched hives of scum and villainy, clearly, but given OP's support needs and they're not sure if they want to do BigLaw, they shouldn't pick UofT just because it's, uh, "rare and special." 

[LegallyDani]

It’s the top school in Canada so yes, getting an A there is rare and special. Maybe OP has reasons not to go but it’s definitely a coveted position to be in. 

[LMP]

19 minutes ago, LegallyDani said:

It’s the top school in Canada so yes, getting an A there is rare and special. Maybe OP has reasons not to go but it’s definitely a coveted position to be in. 

I can't tell if this is satire or not.