Difficulty of Mid-Career Area Switches

[TheCryptozoologist]

Something hard that I couldn't get over throughout law school is being forced into a specialization by default, and being stuck in a practice area I simply won't enjoy.

I have a strong interest in environmental law, but the prospect of that idea is quickly fading due to the lack of work here. With that said I was very interested in criminal law throughout law school and coursework I did in undergrad prepared me to understand forensic evidence really well. I also did alot of coursework in business law and am fairly fluent in economics and finance out of personal interest, enough to understand the non-legal side of financial markets at least, but this entire area of law I find mind-numbing outside of a policy context even though it has abundantly more opportunities.

Just wondering how hard it generally is to lateral between different fields. I'm tuning into the reality that everything in life including one's legal career is at its core a compromise with reality, and I think I'd be content with working in criminal law when push comes to shove.

[CleanHands]

It's basically impossible to "lateral" into criminal law from a full service/corporate background (or most other non-criminal law backgrounds).

I work at a Crown office and whenever we post for mid-career level positions we are inundated with applications from mid-career BigLaw lawyers who have no criminal law experience since law school. I have been privy to situations where literally none of these kinds of candidates were even interviewed and the jobs were even reposted instead due a lack of qualified candidates. *Maybe* you could go from being a 5 year (or whatever) call BigLaw lawyer or environmental lawyer to an entry level Crown position if they were desperate, but a fresh call straight out of articles in criminal law would be considered a superior candidate by far.

Criminal defence is mostly sole practitioners and small firms and you can hang your own shingle but you're even less likely to get on with an existing criminal defence firm without criminal law experience than you would be to get on with the Crown.

Bottom line is you can do a switch to criminal law from a corporate (or other non-crim) background but it's virtually guaranteed that you will be starting from square one. If this is what you want to do it's better to make the switch as early in your career as possible.

ETA: I'm actually not clear whether you are working in "environmental law" with limited work or wanted to but can't due to limited job opportunities. Either way, although environmental law is more niche, I see no reason this would be any different from switching from BigLaw as it's no more relevant to criminal law work than BigLaw is.

Edited July 16, 2021 by CleanHands

[disgruntledpelican]

I was able to make a pretty significant practice switch after being called, but a lot of it boiled down to luck and good timing. 

I'd be happy to discuss via PM.

[Avatar Aang]

You are right that there are not many jobs in environmental law if you did not land a job through OCIs or the articling recruit. The majority of people get into this field through Big law, government, specialized boutiques, and non-profits/legal clinics. Many people I see in the field did the Osgoode JD/MES, have environmental science, studies, or engineering backgrounds, and participated in aboriginal or environmental intensive programs, moots, clinics, etc. 

Do you have a profile like them? If not, I would probably go into something else. 

https://www.willmsshier.com/lawyers

https://ca.linkedin.com/in/jacqueline-hebert-12b07179 

https://www.linkedin.com/in/carolina-campos-52040462/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/jenniferevola/?originalSubdomain=ca

[TheCryptozoologist]

6 minutes ago, CleanHands said:

It's basically impossible to "lateral" into criminal law from a full service/corporate background (or most other non-criminal law backgrounds).

I work at a Crown office and whenever we post for mid-career level positions we are inundated with applications from mid-career BigLaw lawyers who have no criminal law experience since law school. I have literally been privy to situations where none of these kinds of candidates were interviewed and the jobs were even reposted instead due a lack of qualified candidates. *Maybe* you could go from being a 5 year call BigLaw lawyer or environmental lawyer to an entry level Crown position if they were desperate, but a fresh call straight out of articles in criminal law would be considered a superior candidate by far.

Criminal defence is mostly sole practitioners and small firms and you can hang your own shingle but you're even less likely to get on with an existing criminal defence firm without criminal law experience than you would be to get on with the Crown.

Bottom line is you can do criminal law from a corporate background but it's virtually guaranteed that you will be starting from square one. If this is what you want to do it's better to make the switch as early in your career as possible.

ETA: I know you said you were working in "environmental law," which is more niche, but I see no reason this would be any different as it's no more relevant to criminal law work than BigLaw is.

Thanks for the honest insight. I am very drawn to defense side especially after taking advance crim procedure taught by a practicing public defender in 3L. didn't apply to any criminal law firms since I spent my summers building experience in other areas and at the time felt it was pointless since I didn't have a criminal law background. 

just wondering if you had practical advice for building up credentials or experience for recent grads or people in the early stages of their career. setting up my own shop is something I'd enjoy but don't think it'd be right to do it without the necessary experience.

[CleanHands]

13 minutes ago, TheCryptozoologist said:

Thanks for the honest insight. I am very drawn to defense side especially after taking advance crim procedure taught by a practicing public defender in 3L. didn't apply to any criminal law firms since I spent my summers building experience in other areas and at the time felt it was pointless since I didn't have a criminal law background. 

just wondering if you had practical advice for building up credentials or experience for recent grads or people in the early stages of their career. setting up my own shop is something I'd enjoy but don't think it'd be right to do it without the necessary experience.

Glad I could be of some help--I've found that many people go into BigLaw thinking they'll do it for a few years to "open up doors" and then do "what they really want," without realizing the doors that opens in the legal field aren't universal, so I like to take the chance to dispel that after what I've witnessed in my (short and limited) career in law so far.

I wish I could be more helpful with respect to your second paragraph. I agree with not setting up shop without enough experience and assistance and I think that's responsible of you. But I think it's going to be hard working for a criminal defence firm, or otherwise getting proper training and mentorship in criminal defence, at this stage. I am by no means an expert at making this switch (as I gunned for crim law from day 1 in law school) but there are two potential paths I would recommend (in addition to putting in applications to crim defence firms because the stars might align and there may be an exception to the patterns I've observed, just keep expectations low on that front):

• Apply for entry level Crown positions straight out of articles, as soon as you get called. You will be at a disadvantage compared to those who articled in criminal law, but it's still easier to make the practice area switch aligned with your career level then than it ever will be after. Depending on your province, there may be written and/or oral exams in criminal law and procedure that can be an equalizer for you and allow you to demonstrate that you know your stuff and would be a good hire even if you don't have criminal law experience. Be a Crown for a year or a few, until you are comfortable, then work for a crim defence firm or open your own shop.
• Hang your own shingle in crim defence ASAP and network your ass off with other criminal defence lawyers and sign up for all relevant associations and resources while doing it. It is my experience that crim lawyers will be reluctant to provide that much help to lawyers in other practice areas who tell them they are *thinking* about making the switch (because it could be a waste of time that could be better invested in someone more clearly serious), but once you dive into the deep end and are "one of them" they will likely be much more accommodating. During my 1L summer I worked for two criminal defence lawyers who worked at a full service firm together for a few years out of law school then opened up a criminal defence firm together and were able to make it happen, starting out junioring on files under experienced defence lawyers (an arrangement many experienced defence lawyers will be more amenable to than hiring you as an associate directly).

Again, I haven't been in that position before and I had it easy knowing what I wanted to do and having it all fall in place at every step of the way, but I have seen both of the above approaches work. Good luck, dude!

Edited July 16, 2021 by CleanHands

[TheCryptozoologist]

8 minutes ago, Avatar Aang said:

You are right that there are not many jobs in environmental law if you did not land a job through OCIs or the articling recruit. The majority of people get into this field through Big law, government, specialized boutiques, and non-profits/legal clinics. Many people I see in the field did the Osgoode JD/MES, have environmental science, studies, or engineering backgrounds, and participated in aboriginal or environmental intensive programs, moots, clinics, etc. 

Do you have a profile like them? If not, I would probably go into something else. 

https://www.willmsshier.com/lawyers

https://ca.linkedin.com/in/jacqueline-hebert-12b07179 

https://www.linkedin.com/in/carolina-campos-52040462/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/jenniferevola/?originalSubdomain=ca

Yes, I have a background in environmental science and ecology alongside chemistry/biology/etc... Also have a grad degree in climate policy and still read academic literature in policy/law/science side of things out of interest.

IMO the trouble isn't necessarily not wanting to do environmental law. this is a great field, but a very small bar and even smaller when you consider the type of clients or matters you want to work in. climate change hasn't really made a big splash yet in this area despite a supreme court case and well-meaning legislation. the opportunity to make a living and really do something interesting to me seems more distant than ever. 

honestly, whenever I bring up this topic in real life, because I've spoken to people from government advisors to bay street partners about climate change policy, there's almost instinctive or hostile resistance to many of the ideas floating around. people are very opposed to alot of it. my instinct is still leaning on nothing being done or being half measured until the end, so I'm pretty jaded about anything meaningful being done. 

[TheCryptozoologist]

12 minutes ago, CleanHands said:

Glad I could be of some help--I've found that many people go into BigLaw thinking they'll do it for a few years to "open up doors" and then do "what they really want," without realizing the doors that opens in the legal field aren't universal, so I like to take the chance to dispel that after what I've witnessed in my (short and limited) career in law so far.

I wish I could be more helpful with respect to your second paragraph. I agree with not setting up shop without enough experience and assistance and I think that's responsible of you. But I think it's going to be hard working for a criminal defence firm, or otherwise getting proper training and mentorship in criminal defence, at this stage. I am by no means an expert at making this switch (as I gunned for crim law from day 1 in law school) but there are two potential paths I would recommend (in addition to putting in applications to crim defence firms because the stars might align and there may be an exception to the patterns I've observed, just keep expectations low on that front):

• Apply for entry level Crown positions straight out of articles, as soon as you get called. You will be at a disadvantage compared to those who articled in criminal law, but it's still easier to make the practice area switch aligned with your career level then than it ever will be after. Depending on your province, there may be written and/or oral exams in criminal law and procedure that can be an equalizer for you and allow you to demonstrate that you know your stuff and would be a good hire even if you don't have criminal law experience. Be a Crown for a year or a few, until you are comfortable, then work for a crim defence firm or open your own shop.
• Hang your own shingle in crim defence ASAP and network your ass off with other criminal defence lawyers and sign up for all relevant associations and resources while doing it. It is my experience that crim lawyers will be reluctant to provide that much help to lawyers in other practice areas who tell them they are *thinking* about making the switch (because it could be a waste of time that could be better invested in someone more clearly serious), but once you dive into the deep end and are "one of them" they will likely be much more accommodating. During my 1L summer I worked for two criminal defence lawyers who worked at a full service firm together for a few years out of law school then opened up a criminal defence firm together and were able to make it happen, starting out junioring on files under experienced defence lawyers (an arrangement many experienced defence lawyers will be more amenable to than hiring you as an associate directly).

Again, I haven't been in that position before and I had it easy knowing what I wanted to do and having it all fall in place at every step of the way, but I have seen both of the above approaches work. Good luck, dude!

Thanks, always with great posts and all of this is very helpful.👍

The most interesting people I've met in law school including students and instructors were 80% of the time specializing in criminal law, and so networking will be certainly more enjoyable in this area. 

[CleanHands]

2 hours ago, TheCryptozoologist said:

The most interesting people I've met in law school including students and instructors were 80% of the time specializing in criminal law, and so networking will be certainly more enjoyable in this area. 

The crim bar is certainly the most fun bar. lol

[Aureliuse]

1 hour ago, CleanHands said:

The crim bar is certainly the most fun bar. lol

The family law bar begs to differ.

[CleanHands]

Just now, Aureliuse said:

The family law bar begs to differ.

The family bar is entitled to their incorrect opinions. 😛

[AnomanderRake]

2 hours ago, Aureliuse said:

The family law bar begs to differ.

Is it just me or are family lawyers always angry at each other? Anytime I see a contested family application in Chambers the parties seem to be frothing at the mouth.

[artsydork]

6 hours ago, AnomanderRake said:

Is it just me or are family lawyers always angry at each other? Anytime I see a contested family application in Chambers the parties seem to be frothing at the mouth.

I'm rarely going into conferences upset at my colleagues. Some lawyers are annoyed at the situation, but rarely at counsel.

[Aureliuse]

18 hours ago, AnomanderRake said:

Is it just me or are family lawyers always angry at each other? Anytime I see a contested family application in Chambers the parties seem to be frothing at the mouth.

Those with class, experience, and tact are rarely angry at each other. It is unfortunate that some family law lawyers behave like a "hired gun" and adopt their client's "cause." I do find that some family lawyers bore grudges against some others.

Some of it is just "posturing" in front of clients - "look how hard I am fighting and acting tough and aggressive."

[99problems]

25 minutes ago, Aureliuse said:

Those with class, experience, and tact are rarely angry at each other. It is unfortunate that some family law lawyers behave like a "hired gun" and adopt their client's "cause." I do find that some family lawyers bore grudges against some others.

Some of it is just "posturing" in front of clients - "look how hard I am fighting and acting tough and aggressive."

Totally unrelated to this thread, but I saw your profile pic and wondered when I wrote a comment in this thread. Man, you are misleading 😛

[t3ctonics]

On 7/16/2021 at 4:55 PM, TheCryptozoologist said:

IMO the trouble isn't necessarily not wanting to do environmental law. this is a great field, but a very small bar and even smaller when you consider the type of clients or matters you want to work in. 

I've done a little bit of environmental law both at a law firm (helping out a specialized environmental law partner on a few files) and in-house (dealing with our own contaminated sites as well as some policy work) and you're absolutely right. There are very few people practicing environmental law in private practice, and the majority of the work is for natural resource companies. Most in-house environmental law opportunities are also in natural resource extraction. If you're interested in environmental protection and mitigating climate change, your options narrow down to government (mostly regulatory) or non-profit advocacy organizations. There aren't many of those jobs.

Speaking to the topic more generally, mid-career area switches are fairly common, but moving to an "adjacent" area is overwhelmingly more common than switching to something totally unrelated. The more obviously transferable the knowledge and skillset, the easier it will be to make the switch. If you're in litigation at a large firm you'd have an easier time moving into criminal law than if you were in M&A, for example, though there's still a lot of differences between civil and criminal litigation.

I myself switched at about the 4 year mark from a general civil litigation practice (with some dabbling in other areas) to an in-house role doing mostly labour and employment. I was able to make the switch because the new employer was really looking for a junior or mid-level generalist that could assist a more senior lawyer with labour and employment as needed. Over time, I did more until I took over the L&E area completely. So it wasn't really a hard switch, but gradual. That seems to be more common.