Queen's VS TMU

[lawsch]

Is it crazy to go to TMU over Queen’s? I got accepted to both but looking at saving about 30k by going to TMU and living at home. Bit worried I’m gunna regret my choice due to the newness of the school. Anyone think the extra costs associated with attending Queen’s is worth it? I'm interested in corporate law, however, I'll be going into 1L with an open mind. Any thoughts would be appreciated! 

[6ixlaw2021]

If your goal is corporate law, I'm assuming you mean BigLaw and not assisting a small accounting firm with their legal matters kinda corporate law, I would highly suggest going to Queens over TMU, or literally any other Canadian law school over TMU, any that has a prior reputation and some alums who you can network with. Don't choose a law school simply to save some bucks, unless you're genuinely in some financial ruins, again you know your financial situation better than anyone else !! 

[BlockedQuebecois]

2 hours ago, 6ixlaw2021 said:

If your goal is corporate law, I'm assuming you mean BigLaw and not assisting a small accounting firm with their legal matters kinda corporate law, I would highly suggest going to Queens over TMU, or literally any other Canadian law school over TMU, any that has a prior reputation and some alums who you can network with. Don't choose a law school simply to save some bucks, unless you're genuinely in some financial ruins, again you know your financial situation better than anyone else !! 

TMU did better in the recent Toronto recruit than Ottawa, Windsor, McGill, or Dalhousie, as well as almost certainly Lakehead and all other out of province schools.

For some of those schools you’ll have a large number of opt outs, but I don’t think it’s correct to say you should go to “literally any other Canadian law school” over TMU. TMU strikes me as an obviously better choice than Windsor and Lakehead for Toronto big law, for example. 

Edited April 17, 2023 by BlockedQuebecois

[6ixlaw2021]

6 hours ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

TMU did better in the recent Toronto recruit than Ottawa, Windsor, McGill, or Dalhousie, as well as almost certainly Lakehead and all other out of province schools.

For some of those schools you’ll have a large number of opt outs, but I don’t think it’s correct to say you should go to “literally any other Canadian law school” over TMU. TMU strikes me as an obviously better choice than Windsor and Lakehead for Toronto big law, for example. 

I don't think a lot of people at McGill or Dalhousie take part in the Toronto recruit, same with Ottawa as many are interested in the Ottawa recruit!! As you mentioned for some of those schools you'd have a large number of opt-outs, so I am not sure why they're relevant lol, since the OP didn't say they wanted to do corporate law in Toronto, they just said "corporate law"!! The full statement about "any other Canadian law school" stated that - one that has a prior reputation in that field and alums you could network with, which I still believe helps out.

Also, you're incorrect about your statistics, this year Ryerson had 19 people in Toronto 2L Recruit, while Windsor had 28 people, and Ottawa had 29 people actually. If you by any chance meant 2022 recruit, you'd be incorrect again as in 2022, Windsor actually had 46 people, and Ottawa had 41, while TMU had 27.

Given, Lakehead has no numbers for this, you might be correct about that school. So yes maybe any other JD program in Ontario except Lakehead, (and probably DUAL) might be a better option for corporate law (in Toronto) than TMU. 

Edited April 17, 2023 by 6ixlaw2021

[Turtles]

6 hours ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

TMU did better in the recent Toronto recruit than Ottawa, Windsor, McGill, or Dalhousie, as well as almost certainly Lakehead and all other out of province schools.

For some of those schools you’ll have a large number of opt outs, but I don’t think it’s correct to say you should go to “literally any other Canadian law school” over TMU. TMU strikes me as an obviously better choice than Windsor and Lakehead for Toronto big law, for example. 

So much for the whole "approving Ryerson Law and letting them ditch articling will improve access to justice" pitch the LSO bought into.

Turns out its main purpose is to let people into the Toronto market who couldn't get into UofT/Osgoode/Western/Queens and without having to endure the pain of living in Windsor, Ottawa, or Thunder Bay.

[6ixlaw2021]

19 minutes ago, Turtles said:

So much for the whole "approving Ryerson Law and letting them ditch articling will improve access to justice" pitch the LSO bought into.

Turns out its main purpose is to let people into the Toronto market who couldn't get into UofT/Osgoode/Western/Queens and without having to endure the pain of living in Windsor, Ottawa, or Thunder Bay.

Apparently, Lakehead also has this thing of skipping articling and becoming licensed lawyers right after, they advertise it as "part of their Integrated Practice Curriculum that exempts  Bora Laskin Law graduates from the articling requirement." 

Edited April 17, 2023 by 6ixlaw2021

[BlockedQuebecois]

3 hours ago, 6ixlaw2021 said:

Also, you're incorrect about your statistics, this year Ryerson had 19 people in Toronto 2L Recruit, while Windsor had 28 people, and Ottawa had 29 people actually. If you by any chance meant 2022 recruit, you'd be incorrect again as in 2022, Windsor actually had 46 people, and Ottawa had 41, while TMU had 27.

Those schools all have markedly more students than TMU. That’s why everyone that talks about these issues uses the placement rate, not the raw number of students.

The fact that you think the relevant metric should be raw number of students in itself suggests you probably shouldn’t be advising on this.

 

[Turtles]

On 4/12/2023 at 10:47 PM, lawsch said:

Is it crazy to go to TMU over Queen’s? I got accepted to both but looking at saving about 30k by going to TMU and living at home. Bit worried I’m gunna regret my choice due to the newness of the school. Anyone think the extra costs associated with attending Queen’s is worth it? I'm interested in corporate law, however, I'll be going into 1L with an open mind. Any thoughts would be appreciated! 

FWIW, I asked myself this same question back in 2020, when Ryerson was brand new and there was more uncertainty. But it wasn't cost of living driving my added consideration of Ryerson but the desire to live in Toronto rather than Kingston. I ended up leaning towards Queens, although it became moot once I heard back from Osgoode. 

I assume you calculated the 30k savings after (i) factoring in cost of living (obviously), but also (ii) the difference of tuition at both schools and (iii) expected bursaries/scholarships (I know Queen's will assess you for an entrance bursary before you have to accept/decline, not sure what Ryerson does now, but your bursary may be material and affect the calculus). If you haven't factored those in, do so first. I also assume you are happy to live at home rather than leave the nest (for many, they would pay big bucks to get away, but your consideration makes it seem you are happy to stay... just keep in mind mental health and gaining maturity from living on your own can have value too). 

With the benefit of its big law employment results and factoring in your cost of living considerations, I think Ryerson is a great choice. If you value being in a bigger city / being close to friends or family / the diversity of the city and the school compared to Kingston/Queens, that may also help sway you too. Queens is more of a national school but you haven't articulated something to suggest you're looking to make a move to Vancouver or whatever (in which case, a BC school would be better anyways). 

(I have a fan club of people who think I am too harsh to Ryerson, so my endorsement does not come from someone who drinks the kool aid. That said, don't put much stock in the "no articling requirement" or "more tech or practical focused" marketing -- at best it's puffery and at worst it's a misrepresentation made fraudulently or recklessly to induce you to choose Ryerson despite reality, kinda like when you buy something with a "guaranteed 100% lifetime warranty" then when it fails three weeks later they go "oh, that was the one thing excluded, you shouldn't take it so seriously, you have read the fine print!")

Edited April 17, 2023 by Turtles

[6ixlaw2021]

8 hours ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

Those schools all have markedly more students than TMU. That’s why everyone that talks about these issues uses the placement rate, not the raw number of students.

The fact that you think the relevant metric should be raw number of students in itself suggests you probably shouldn’t be advising on this.

 

probably still better than someone who thought McGill and Dalhousie placements in Toronto are relevant to TMU in any way lol 

[BlockedQuebecois]

*Sigh*, I specifically indicated they likely weren’t relevant (and before you jump on it, I say likely because a very large portion of Dalhousie’s class is from Ontario). 

If you’re going to advise people about big life decisions like where to go to law school, you owe it to them to do it in an informed and responsible manner.

Advising someone to go to “literally any other Canadian law school than TMU” in the absence of a full understanding of their situation is not responsible. Hell, even on the facts we know about OP, it’s irresponsible, stupid, and wrong advice. 

 

Edited April 17, 2023 by BlockedQuebecois