Bond University (AUSTRALIA) or Leicester University (UK)

[Jas24]

Hey guys, 

So after getting waitlisted by Windsor and now recently rejected with LSAT: 157 and 3.5GPA, I have no choice but to not waste another year and go to abroad for law. 

Bond University offers a 2 year JD program and Leicester University also offers LLB (JD pathway) which is a 2 year program. My question was in regards to which one is a better option as Bond Uni offers a JD in 2 year whereas Leicester provides a 2 year LLB. I don't know the difference between the two so I was wondering if there is any one that can help me decide which one would be a better option for me?  

P.S. I am aware of the NCA exams etc that I have to do in Canada.

 

 

[Yogurt Baron]

6 minutes ago, Jas24 said:

I have no choice but to not waste another year

You do have a choice. You really, really do. I understand the feeling that you don't, but I promise you, you do. I'm not going to speak to how you should make that choice or pontificate about the foreign route - there are a thousand people here more qualified to speak to that - but I can speak to whether you have a choice. It feels like you don't. You do.

A long time ago, I was absolutely certain that I needed to start law school right now, despite having a GPA that started with a 0. I was old, damn it. I did not have a year to waste. I knew I was already behind, behind all these people who just go straight K-JD and start law school at 22. I knew I was already going to be the oldest person in the class, probably older than mot of the professors, and certainly could not afford to waste more time.

At that time, I was 23. And I knew, knew in my bones, intensely, compulsively, that an elderly man of 23 would just barely be tolerated at a law school; waiting until I was 24 was unthinkable. 24 is basically old enough to be 23's grandpa, right?

I'm writing because I know that you're going to hear from some people who aren't terribly sympathetic to the "I have no choice but to not waste another year" thing; you're going to hear from people who are sympathetic, but don't sound like it. I am remarkably sympathetic. And I'll tell you the one thing I know: that feeling you have that it would be a "waste" of a year is common, it's normal, a lot of people have it, and it's lying to you. Whether you start law school at age X or age X+1 does not, in the long run, matter.

"No, it's the only thing that matters!"

I've been there. Doesn't matter. I promise.

"I told my parents I was going to law school, and I cannot disappoint them."

They won't be disappointed.

"Yes, but I'm the vice-president of the pre-law society, and I told the treasurer of the pre-law society I was going to law school, and if I don't go this year, he's going to think I'm stupid!"

You won't remember that guy's name in ten years.

You have more time than it feels like you do. Or, if you don't---because hey, any of us might get hit by a bus tomorrow---then going to law school a year sooner or later won't help anyway.

You're doing better than you feel like you're doing. Maybe Bond is the right choice for you; I've been told it is, for some people. But at the end of your career, you probably won't remember whether you started law school in 2021 or 2022. Don't stick yourself with something you don't want because you're convinced it's your only choice.

[QueensDenning]

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know, there is no difference between a LLB and a JD (I'm pretty sure Canadian law schools used to grant the "LLB" degree and then changed it to "JD" a bunch of years ago). But if you're waiting another year anyways, may as well try to increase your LSAT and apply to the Canadian schools again.

[Jas24]

7 minutes ago, QueensDenning said:

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know, there is no difference between a LLB and a JD (I'm pretty sure Canadian law schools used to grant the "LLB" degree and then changed it to "JD" a bunch of years ago). But if you're waiting another year anyways, may as well try to increase your LSAT and apply to the Canadian schools again.

I am so confused at that part too, Bond university just says JD whereas Leicester says JD pathway (LLB), and I was planning on starting September 2021 not next year. 

[SYANG09]

I may go off on a tangent but if you're opting for Bond chances are you won't be physically in Australia until long. You can't enter Australia as a student except in some extenuating circumstances: https://covid19.homeaffairs.gov.au/travel-restrictions#toc-3 Unless you're an Australian citizen/PR or fall into those exempt categories in the link, you'll most likely be taking online courses at home. Just FYI you may enter U.K. subject to some quarantine restrictions. 

17 minutes ago, Jas24 said:

I am so confused at that part too, Bond university just says JD whereas Leicester says JD pathway (LLB), and I was planning on starting September 2021 not next year. 

In short, JD is the fancier term for LLB. Most American schools offered LLB pre-1960s and Canadians schools offered it not a long time ago before they switched to JD. In U.S., JD is a professional doctorate. However, in Canada JD is generally considered a second bachelor's degree (not 100% sure of this tho). In Australia, JD is a "coursework master" program and LLB is for undergrads studying law. Don't think JD is an official term anywhere in U.K., LLB is mostly used there.

Edited July 19, 2021 by SYANG09

[QueensDenning]

5 minutes ago, Jas24 said:

I am so confused at that part too, Bond university just says JD whereas Leicester says JD pathway (LLB), and I was planning on starting September 2021 not next year. 

Right, I think Bond has some extra Canada-specific courses that might allow for less NCA exams (but I also think that Bond students don't get summers off?) Either way, I'd reiterate what @Yogurt Baron said re: no choice. You have a choice, some of my classmates are in their 40s and you have to factor in the additional years that going the NCA route will tack on. If you can get into a Canadian law school next year, you will almost certainly be practicing law before you would be able to if you go to Bond.

[LMP]

In fairness to you, I'll answer you question but I'd like to add a little disclaimer first. You can get in to a Canadian law school. You absolutely can. Do some tweaking to your application and apply very broadly. Having  Canadian JD will make your life easier. If you think people won't notice or care that you got a degree abroad, at one of two schools literally know only because they cater to Canadian students who couldn't get in elsewhere, you are mistaken. You'll be wasting not only time but money going down this road. 

Having said all that, I'd go to Leicester. It'd a bit less scammy than Bond and the UK is actually likely to let you into the country, something I can't confidently say about Australia. I also believe Leicester is cheaper? 

 

[Hegdis]

You are nowhere near “no choice”.  Going the foreign route costs more, takes longer, and saddles you with a stigma when you start looking for work. 

Do not trade in the chance to learn at a Canadian law school next year for the quick feel-good sensation of being accepted somewhere right now. Many foreign law schools know you are desperate and they have built a whole industry around making you feel better - for a price. With few exceptions it’s not worth it in terms of your time or your money or your career. 

[Jas24]

6 minutes ago, QueensDenning said:

Right, I think Bond has some extra Canada-specific courses that might allow for less NCA exams (but I also think that Bond students don't get summers off?) Either way, I'd reiterate what @Yogurt Baron said re: no choice. You have a choice, some of my classmates are in their 40s and you have to factor in the additional years that going the NCA route will tack on. If you can get into a Canadian law school next year, you will almost certainly be practicing law before you would be able to if you go to Bond.

to be honest this is my 2nd year applying. I have read on the forums students with lower GPA and LSAT than me have been accepted in Canadian law school this year. At this point I have been totally been disheartened because I genuinely believed to be accepted this year, have Strong volunteering experience, letters support from the local MP as a reference but still waitlisted and rejected. 

[QueensDenning]

10 minutes ago, Jas24 said:

to be honest this is my 2nd year applying. I have read on the forums students with lower GPA and LSAT than me have been accepted in Canadian law school this year. At this point I have been totally been disheartened because I genuinely believed to be accepted this year, have Strong volunteering experience, letters support from the local MP as a reference but still waitlisted and rejected. 

Keep in mind that this year seemed to be unusually competitive! With your stats, you may be on the border and I understand how disheartened you must feel. But if you really put your mind to it, you can get into a Canadian law school. You also have to keep in mind that once you get in, the rejections keep coming. Clinics, clubs, journals, summer jobs, articling... the list goes on. We're all going to law school to work as a lawyer - and those are competitive jobs to get. Going with the foreign degree might feel good for the rest of the summer, but it's not easy getting jobs, even with a Canadian degree. Imagine how disheartened you would feel if you weren't able to work as a lawyer once you put in the time, effort and $ required for the foreign degree.

[luckycharm]

1 hour ago, Jas24 said:

I am so confused at that part too, Bond university just says JD whereas Leicester says JD pathway (LLB), and I was planning on starting September 2021 not next year. 

Not a good idea to go aboard unless you are going to practice in UK or Australia.

Hire a private tutor and apply broadly.  

 

[Avatar Aang]

Are you a BIPOC individual by any chance? If you are, you will face additional barriers in the legal market on top of the fact that you have a foreign law degree. The vast majority of foreign trained lawyers that struggle to find jobs in Canada are POC. If you are a White Canadian and have connections, then this may not be a terrible path to pursue, but if you are BIPOC and have no connections, or your connections are only with ethnic firms, then this is a terrible plan.

[Jas24]

1 hour ago, Avatar Aang said:

Are you a BIPOC individual by any chance? If you are, you will face additional barriers in the legal market on top of the fact that you have a foreign law degree. The vast majority of foreign trained lawyers that struggle to find jobs in Canada are POC. If you are a White Canadian and have connections, then this may not be a terrible path to pursue, but if you are BIPOC and have no connections, or your connections are only with ethnic firms, then this is a terrible plan.

Lol yes I am. But I do have connections, as I am a licensed paralegal. 

[luckycharm]

7 hours ago, Jas24 said:

to be honest this is my 2nd year applying. I have read on the forums students with lower GPA and LSAT than me have been accepted in Canadian law school this year. At this point I have been totally been disheartened because I genuinely believed to be accepted this year, have Strong volunteering experience, letters support from the local MP as a reference but still waitlisted and rejected. 

Your LSAT is the issue. Hire a private tutor.

I had lower GPA than you but 161 LSAT 

2 hours ago, Jas24 said:

Lol yes I am. But I do have connections, as I am a licensed paralegal. 

good luck

Edited July 20, 2021 by luckycharm

[BondGuy]

22 hours ago, Jas24 said:

I am so confused at that part too, Bond university just says JD whereas Leicester says JD pathway (LLB), and I was planning on starting September 2021 not next year. 

At Bond an LLB is an undergrad, while a JD is a post grad. You can get the LLB out of highschool and it is a 4 year degree.

[Jas24]

48 minutes ago, BondGuy said:

At Bond an LLB is an undergrad, while a JD is a post grad. You can get the LLB out of highschool and it is a 4 year degree.

Hey, So when I come back to Canada does the JD weight more than the LLB? I mean what are pros of doing a JD instead of a LLB, which are in this case both 2 years? 

15 hours ago, luckycharm said:

Your LSAT is the issue. Hire a private tutor.

I had lower GPA than you but 161 LSAT 

good luck

Yeah I figured, but at the same time I see students posting their acceptances with like 151 LSATs. 

[luckycharm]

8 minutes ago, Jas24 said:

Hey, So when I come back to Canada does the JD weight more than the LLB? I mean what are pros of doing a JD instead of a LLB, which are in this case both 2 years? 

Yeah I figured, but at the same time I see students posting their acceptances with like 151 LSATs. 

acceptances with 151 were most likely not under general category.

No one can predict "access" or any other non general categories. 

[Electricity]

It'd be helpful to know your L2/B2, how many times you've taken the LSAT, and what study materials you've used already. Unless you have cash to throw around, ignore the advice of hiring a private tutor until you've tried some of the more extensive online resources like LSAT Demon or 7Sage. Tutors are very expensive and can be hit or miss. 

Don't you dare go to the UK or Australia with a 3.5 cGPA. Get yourself into the low 160s, apply widely, and you should be well within reach of some solid Canadian schools next cycle. 

 

[123]

1 hour ago, Electricity said:

Don't you dare go to the UK or Australia with a 3.5 cGPA.

This made me laugh. Going forward, I think all advice on this site should be given as if we’re talking to a dog eyeing a pork chop on the counter. 

[HarryCrane]

On 7/19/2021 at 10:22 AM, Jas24 said:

So after getting waitlisted by Windsor and now recently rejected with LSAT: 157 and 3.5GPA, I have no choice but to not waste another year and go to abroad for law. 

 

 

Going to echo what others have said and say you absolutely have a choice. Unless you have written the LSAT 7 times and used every test prep company you can find and hit a 157, you still have a choice. Moreover, you'll be wasting a year on the back end with the NCA exams before you can even article, which in itself is a task given how stigmatized international law degrees are in Canada (warranted or not).

Others have suggested you hire a tutor. Might be worth it for an hour or so just to get a sense of maybe what is going wrong, if you already do not know what the issues are. 7Sage is a god send and something you should seriously look into if you haven't. LSAT Demon is another.

[BondGuy]

On 7/20/2021 at 12:08 PM, Jas24 said:

Hey, So when I come back to Canada does the JD weight more than the LLB? I mean what are pros of doing a JD instead of a LLB, which are in this case both 2 years? 

Yeah I figured, but at the same time I see students posting their acceptances with like 151 LSATs. 

What do you call someone called to the bar in Ontario with an LLB? 

Lawyer. 

You wouldn't do an LLB at Bond if you have an undergrad. 

[Diplock]

9 hours ago, BondGuy said:

What do you call someone called to the bar in Ontario with an LLB? 

Lawyer. 

You wouldn't do an LLB at Bond if you have an undergrad. 

You've been reasonable in other posts, and so I really don't want to criticize your general approach. But this kind of throwaway line, amusing though it is - and true though it is in a literal sense - plays into exactly the problem that students have when they go looking for quick fix solutions to their problems. They look only one step down the road. Can't get into a Canadian law school but want to be in law school anyway? Bam. Find a school that'll take you anywhere, on any basis. The same joke could be even more basic. What do you call a student in a law school? A law student! And so it doesn't really matter which one, right? Except of course it does.

I don't know anyone whose goal is just to be called a lawyer. As though opportunities, career outcomes, etc. are all irrelevant, just as long as I can write on LinkedIn that I'm a lawyer. And yet when people want a quick fix, that's exactly what they will focus on. And even my prior joke isn't really a joke at all. I've talked to students who made the mistake of telling everyone they were going to law school before they actually, you know, got accepted to any law school. So their immediate term goal, no joke, is really just to enroll in some program that will allow that statement to become true.

Anyway, it's an amusing line. But the rest does matter.

Also, it doesn't really matter if the law school you graduate from calls their program a LLB or a JD. It does matter where you go to law school. But not what they call their degree. Just saying.

[GGrievous]

My dude… apps for next cycle are almost open. Why the fuck would apply abroad. You should be registering and studying for the LSAT right now. 

[BondGuy]

On 7/21/2021 at 10:26 PM, Diplock said:

You've been reasonable in other posts, and so I really don't want to criticize your general approach. But this kind of throwaway line, amusing though it is - and true though it is in a literal sense - plays into exactly the problem that students have when they go looking for quick fix solutions to their problems. They look only one step down the road. Can't get into a Canadian law school but want to be in law school anyway? Bam. Find a school that'll take you anywhere, on any basis. The same joke could be even more basic. What do you call a student in a law school? A law student! And so it doesn't really matter which one, right? Except of course it does.

I don't know anyone whose goal is just to be called a lawyer. As though opportunities, career outcomes, etc. are all irrelevant, just as long as I can write on LinkedIn that I'm a lawyer. And yet when people want a quick fix, that's exactly what they will focus on. And even my prior joke isn't really a joke at all. I've talked to students who made the mistake of telling everyone they were going to law school before they actually, you know, got accepted to any law school. So their immediate term goal, no joke, is really just to enroll in some program that will allow that statement to become true.

Anyway, it's an amusing line. But the rest does matter.

Also, it doesn't really matter if the law school you graduate from calls their program a LLB or a JD. It does matter where you go to law school. But not what they call their degree. Just saying.

I guess the old adage rings true: when telling lawyer jokes to a mixed audience lawyers don't think they're funny, and non lawyers don't think they're jokes. It is a play on the old joke about the lowest ranking med student - still a doctor. 

If you're already saddled with the stigma of being NCA I think the letters behind your name are the least of your worries.  The LLB was the standard in Canada until it wasn't, and many senior lawyers earned an LLB, not JD.  Canadian law schools have been retroactively changing LLB to JD with nothing more than an application form, because in practice it is a distinction without a difference.  Senior lawyers I know never bothered. 

LLB and the JD at Bond are similar in that they have the same courses (with some differences in assignment and workload), but you need to do other non-legal courses to earn your undergrad as an LLB. When you go to apply at Bond, OP would not be directed to LLB. It just wouldn't happen. That's why the second half of my comment is there. 

 

Edited July 23, 2021 by BondGuy

[Jas24]

On 7/22/2021 at 1:42 AM, Barry said:

My dude… apps for next cycle are almost open. Why the fuck would apply abroad. You should be registering and studying for the LSAT right now. 

Ahah yeah bro I am aware of that but that being said, I won't be starting school till next September 2022 and that is if I get accepted.