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Lawyers who attended law as a mature student (and lawyers in general): Would you do it again?


Frankie576

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Frankie576
  • Law Student

Hi there,

I’m having a bit of an existential crisis and thought hearing some different perspectives might be nice. I was a 1L this past year but ended up taking a LOA for a variety of reasons, and now that it’s coming time to make a decision about whether to go back, I’m really thinking long and hard about the pros and cons. I’m a mature student (30+), the work my husband has found in the province my school was in paid significantly less than where we are now, I want children but don’t have any yet, we own our home in the province we currently live in and are not sure what to do with it if I go back, and, most importantly, the debt load was already keeping me awake at night and that on top of employment riding on grades really led to my burn out.
 

Given the high interest rates these days, the tuition at my school being somewhat high (20k+) and my older starting age, I’m really making questioning whether going back is worth it. Before I was definitely riding the high of getting in, and now that that’s gone, I can more rationally weigh the pros and cons for someone in my particular situation. Has anyone been in a similar situation? Any past mature students that can offer some perspectives on my situation? Would you do law school again if you could go back in time?

Things to note: I do have a masters degree already and a big motivator of going to law school was to hopefully earn more than I was making at my previous job. 

Edited by Frankie576
Edited to add information.
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Sorry but my view is that you (or we all or any one person) could literally die tomorrow - do what you set out to do, what interests you, and what will give you the most fulfilment. 

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Windsorhopeful
  • Articling Student

I regret not getting a Phd rather than going to law school, but I would feel very differently with my law degree in Toronto, Ottawa, Vancouver, or even Edmonton/Calgary. If I had the option, I'd chose the Phd for sure now and I would not chose to go to law school.

If you're happy doing whatever you're doing now and you can easily see the challenges associated with going back to law school, I honestly would not go back. Only go back if its something you want and will hopefully make you happy. 

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GoatDuck
  • Law Student
16 minutes ago, Windsorhopeful said:

I regret not getting a Phd rather than going to law school, but I would feel very differently with my law degree in Toronto, Ottawa, Vancouver, or even Edmonton/Calgary. If I had the option, I'd chose the Phd for sure now and I would not chose to go to law school.

Would you mind elaborating on why you regret not getting a PhD and why you’d feel very different with your law degree in Toronto, Ottawa, Vancouver or Edmonton/Calgary? Genuinely curious 

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Frankie576
  • Law Student
25 minutes ago, Windsorhopeful said:

I regret not getting a Phd rather than going to law school, but I would feel very differently with my law degree in Toronto, Ottawa, Vancouver, or even Edmonton/Calgary. If I had the option, I'd chose the Phd for sure now and I would not chose to go to law school.

If you're happy doing whatever you're doing now and you can easily see the challenges associated with going back to law school, I honestly would not go back. Only go back if its something you want and will hopefully make you happy. 

Funnily enough, I left my PhD to go to law school and if I don’t go back, I will be finishing the PhD. 

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Windsorhopeful
  • Articling Student
20 hours ago, GoatDuck said:

Would you mind elaborating on why you regret not getting a PhD and why you’d feel very different with your law degree in Toronto, Ottawa, Vancouver or Edmonton/Calgary? Genuinely curious 

Sure. I enjoy long term projects, research and really diving into a topic; its something I've enjoyed through all of post secondary. That really ends as a lawyer in a smaller city, (unless I guess you are in litigation with wealthy clients). I'm in Windsor and basically every law job here is transaction/billable hour based. I understand it of course, but I can't help but be jealous of the opportunities in Toronto to use a law degree for policy, research, etc. Those roles just don't really exist outside of main cities like Toronto, Ottawa and Vancouver, as a result of those cities being the headquarters of so many organizations, governments, etc. 

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chaboywb
  • Lawyer
22 hours ago, Frankie576 said:

Hi there,

I’m having a bit of an existential crisis and thought hearing some different perspectives might be nice. I was a 1L this past year but ended up taking a LOA for a variety of reasons, and now that it’s coming time to make a decision about whether to go back, I’m really thinking long and hard about the pros and cons. I’m a mature student (30+), the work my husband has found in the province my school was in paid significantly less than where we are now, I want children but don’t have any yet, we own our home in the province we currently live in and are not sure what to do with it if I go back, and, most importantly, the debt load was already keeping me awake at night and that on top of employment riding on grades really led to my burn out.
 

Given the high interest rates these days, the tuition at my school being somewhat high (20k+) and my older starting age, I’m really making questioning whether going back is worth it. Before I was definitely riding the high of getting in, and now that that’s gone, I can more rationally weigh the pros and cons for someone in my particular situation. Has anyone been in a similar situation? Any past mature students that can offer some perspectives on my situation? Would you do law school again if you could go back in time?

Things to note: I do have a masters degree already and a big motivator of going to law school was to hopefully earn more than I was making at my previous job. 

How much were you making at your previous job? What is your potential with your Master's degree? If money is your major motivator, you should be very realistic with yourself about the fact that you may not earn a ton of money as a lawyer. The ceiling in terms of pay for a new call is being on the Bay Street scale, which requires living in Toronto and working at a very demanding pace. You're much more likely to earn significantly less than that. Then factor in tuition (~60k total), opportunity cost and your husband's opportunity cost. Factor in costs of relocating. Etc.

I wouldn't respond like this if you'd said that your dream is to become a lawyer for reasons other than money. But quite frankly, law school is anything but a sure shot to an upper class lifestyle and, when it is, it tends to be those who are willing to sacrifice a lot. You can be fulfilled and make good money without law school. If I was in your shoes, I wouldn't do it.

Edit: I want to make it very clear that I'm judging you for money being your motivator. My view is that it should be the primary motivator for most decisions. 

Edited by chaboywb
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PePeHalpert
  • Lawyer

I was on the younger side of the mature student spectrum (late 20s) and had 5 years in my prior career under my belt.  I waffled on whether to attend law school.  While I was not fulfilled in my career, I was comfortable and living a fun life.  Having done it, I would 1000% make the same choice again.  

In my view, my prior career experience made me a better law student and a better summer/articling student.   The discipline I'd developed from having a career helped me stay focused in law school; I approached it like it was my job.  I had more experience in a corporate setting than most of my fellow articling students, so I think it made the transition to working a bit easier.  

I am on Bay Street so your mileage may vary, but for me it was absolutely worth it from a financial perspective.  I am making significantly more money than I was before, and on a scale that would not ever have been possible in my previous field.

Of course, what's right for me may not be what is right for you.  I loved law school from the jump and mostly love practicing law.  If you don't see yourself being fulfilled long term, I am not sure that any of the other factors matter. 

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Frankie576
  • Law Student
3 hours ago, chaboywb said:

How much were you making at your previous job? What is your potential with your Master's degree? If money is your major motivator, you should be very realistic with yourself about the fact that you may not earn a ton of money as a lawyer. The ceiling in terms of pay for a new call is being on the Bay Street scale, which requires living in Toronto and working at a very demanding pace. You're much more likely to earn significantly less than that. Then factor in tuition (~60k total), opportunity cost and your husband's opportunity cost. Factor in costs of relocating. Etc.

I wouldn't respond like this if you'd said that your dream is to become a lawyer for reasons other than money. But quite frankly, law school is anything but a sure shot to an upper class lifestyle and, when it is, it tends to be those who are willing to sacrifice a lot. You can be fulfilled and make good money without law school. If I was in your shoes, I wouldn't do it.

Edit: I want to make it very clear that I'm judging you for money being your motivator. My view is that it should be the primary motivator for most decisions. 

I was making around 40k with the provincial government. Unfortunately I live in an Atlantic province and the pay isn’t great here. My first goal was to go into academia, but of course it’s almost impossible to get academic jobs so I decided to leave that.

Law school had always been something I’d wanted to do but was honestly intimidated by, now that I’m older the amount of debt I’ll continue to go in with no guarantee of a high paying job is what causes me anxiety. It’s difficult as well because my husband does have a high paying job so I often felt guilty about him carrying us financially and I held out hope that my going to law school would possibly put us on more equal footing. And as much as I had hoped to go back to the government and work as a lawyer post-law school, I’ve quickly realized that those positions are highly coveted and extremely low paid, thus ruling it out for me if I continue due to the high debt load I’d incur.

It should be noted that I did go into about 30k of debt in my first semester (due to moving costs + tuition + high cost of living in the city the school was in), but part of me thinks it’s better to eat that cost than to go back and incur more.

My doctoral program is supportive of me returning as I was close to the end anyhow (writing up my thesis) but I agonize over whether finishing will actually bring any financial benefit. Of course, I should have weighed all of this more carefully and sought opinions before I naively jumped in but here we are. 

3 hours ago, PePeHalpert said:

I was on the younger side of the mature student spectrum (late 20s) and had 5 years in my prior career under my belt.  I waffled on whether to attend law school.  While I was not fulfilled in my career, I was comfortable and living a fun life.  Having done it, I would 1000% make the same choice again.  

In my view, my prior career experience made me a better law student and a better summer/articling student.   The discipline I'd developed from having a career helped me stay focused in law school; I approached it like it was my job.  I had more experience in a corporate setting than most of my fellow articling students, so I think it made the transition to working a bit easier.  

I am on Bay Street so your mileage may vary, but for me it was absolutely worth it from a financial perspective.  I am making significantly more money than I was before, and on a scale that would not ever have been possible in my previous field.

Of course, what's right for me may not be what is right for you.  I loved law school from the jump and mostly love practicing law.  If you don't see yourself being fulfilled long term, I am not sure that any of the other factors matter. 

I definitely agree that mature students are able to excel in a lot of areas that younger students would find more difficult just purely based on life and work experience. I cannot ever see myself wanting to work on Bay Street, nor can I see myself really wanting to punch long hours at a firm if I have children (if I don’t then whatever, I don’t mind). I think this is what worries me most. If tuition were less and I didn’t have to worry so much about how exactly I’d pay back my inevitably maxed out LOC, I have no doubt that I would return. It’s hard to potentially walk away from life long dreams just because I feel like I’ve aged past the point of law school being a smart and rational financial move. 

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Case
  • Lawyer

I was not a mature student but I was a few years older than the standard cohort so I socialized with the mature students. 

A lot of the people I chummed with at law school who were not interested in Big Law or traditional law firm work and ended up working at Legal Clinics or other similar quasi-governmental jobs. I articled at one of these jobs but decided not to stay in that track after articling, and am now a fifth year solo practitioner (real estate). 

It is impossible to tell you what to do but there is definitely a practical and financial argument for jumping ship and cutting your losses. If you stick it out, there is a chance you end up with a bunch of debt and a somewhat stressful lawyer job that you don't like much more than whatever else it is that you could be doing. I'm not sure of the current pay-scales but a few years ago when I was a student, the quasi-governmental work remuneration was in line with the pay for doing something like being a Policy Analyst in the Provincial or Federal government, i.e. you might make $50k to $60k articling and then a bit more than that but less than six figures, on contract work, for several years. Only senior staff or Directors are up over the six figure threshold. Pay in the private environment outside of Big Law or traditional firms can vary wildly, of course, and while you can make good money stress and money tend to be positively correlated... 

I dunno. There is no right answer for you. 

There are definitely times when I wish I went into a different profession. Being a lawyer is difficult. It can be rewarding but it can be extremely stressful. 

I know people who completed law school, got licensed, practices for a year or two, and them bailed on the profession to become something like a government Policy Analyst. A job they could have gotten out of undergrad or perhaps after a one-year masters degree. Those people probably regret gutting out law school... 

 

EDIT: This reads as too dissuading. I also know several mature students who love their decisions and enjoy their legal careers. For the most part these people were strongly intentioned in law school IIRC by which I mean most of them kind of knew what they wanted, or at least that they wanted to be a lawyer. 

Edited by Case
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chaboywb
  • Lawyer
20 hours ago, Frankie576 said:

I was making around 40k with the provincial government. Unfortunately I live in an Atlantic province and the pay isn’t great here. My first goal was to go into academia, but of course it’s almost impossible to get academic jobs so I decided to leave that.

Law school had always been something I’d wanted to do but was honestly intimidated by, now that I’m older the amount of debt I’ll continue to go in with no guarantee of a high paying job is what causes me anxiety. It’s difficult as well because my husband does have a high paying job so I often felt guilty about him carrying us financially and I held out hope that my going to law school would possibly put us on more equal footing. And as much as I had hoped to go back to the government and work as a lawyer post-law school, I’ve quickly realized that those positions are highly coveted and extremely low paid, thus ruling it out for me if I continue due to the high debt load I’d incur.

It should be noted that I did go into about 30k of debt in my first semester (due to moving costs + tuition + high cost of living in the city the school was in), but part of me thinks it’s better to eat that cost than to go back and incur more.

My doctoral program is supportive of me returning as I was close to the end anyhow (writing up my thesis) but I agonize over whether finishing will actually bring any financial benefit. Of course, I should have weighed all of this more carefully and sought opinions before I naively jumped in but here we are. 

I definitely agree that mature students are able to excel in a lot of areas that younger students would find more difficult just purely based on life and work experience. I cannot ever see myself wanting to work on Bay Street, nor can I see myself really wanting to punch long hours at a firm if I have children (if I don’t then whatever, I don’t mind). I think this is what worries me most. If tuition were less and I didn’t have to worry so much about how exactly I’d pay back my inevitably maxed out LOC, I have no doubt that I would return. It’s hard to potentially walk away from life long dreams just because I feel like I’ve aged past the point of law school being a smart and rational financial move. 

I missed that you already had a year under your belt. I'll retract that I wouldn't do it, in your shoes. Just two more years may be worth it. Sorry for being completely unhelpful!

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Frankie576
  • Law Student
On 4/27/2023 at 4:58 PM, chaboywb said:

I missed that you already had a year under your belt. I'll retract that I wouldn't do it, in your shoes. Just two more years may be worth it. Sorry for being completely unhelpful!

No, no, I just have one semester under my belt and so if I go back I’d have to do all of 1L again despite doing fairly okay on December exams unfortunately! 

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Garfield
  • Articling Student

if there is anything that I have learned working at a family law boutique it’s that lawyers don’t always make that much and that many other professions that make a bit less or as much carry much less risk (given the debt load for law school). Firefighters, police officers, principals, teachers, and policy analysts make as much as many lawyers. Middle management in many businesses makes more than lawyers. Data scientists make more. Statisticians can make more. Electricians (who own their own businesses, of course) make more. All of the professions I’ve listed can make $100,000+. I am not saying that all or even most individuals of the professions I’ve listed always make six figures, of course not. I say all that to say that there are many options out there if you want to make more money. The downside with some of these professions is that they don’t pay that much up front and it may take time for you to get to $100,000+.
 

One of the upsides in law is that you can get a position that pays well up front. many of the professions I listed require you to put in quite a few years (eg a teacher needs around 5-10 years to hit 100k?). If you don’t land a job that pays well it will suck, so you have to decide whether you want to take that risk.

 

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Kimura
  • Lawyer
50 minutes ago, Garfield said:

Firefighters, police officers, principals, teachers, and policy analysts make as much as many lawyers. Middle management in many businesses makes more than lawyers. Data scientists make more. Statisticians can make more. Electricians (who own their own businesses, of course) make more.

If you're a business owner then yes, your earning ceiling is going to be as high as you want it to be. 

But lawyers are generally going to have a much higher earning ceiling than the professions you've mentioned. A lawyer at a small firm can lateral to a mid size or bay st firm and substantially increase their earning potential if they so wish. Or they could go out on their own and the sky is the limit. A school teacher, policy analyst, firefighter or police officer can't do that. An electrician can, but they'd have to run their own business to really hit the bank because the unions and sole businesses aren't going to pay them huge bucks. Also, I'll take being in a cozy office over hanging off the side of a ladder 30 feet in the air any day. 

I went to law school a bit later than my peers and I wouldn't change a thing. Investing in your education is investing in yourself. If you get into a Canadian law school and earn decent grades, I guarantee you'll be able to earn better money than most of the general population. It may not be right away, but with time and effort, it's possible. 

Edited by Kimura
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Yeah, law school doesn't work out for everyone, but I suspect that most people over the course of their career will more than pay off the investment compared to their other options.

Obviously the length of your career after making the change matters a lot. So the later in life you get, the more you have to be serious about whether the change in careers is worth the risk.

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Garfield
  • Articling Student

I don’t disagree with anything @Kimurahas said. As one would conclude from reading my post, it’s a question of risk. The risk factor increases with the debt load. My point is that you have to think about whether you are prepared to take the risk. The point of my post was that there are other options that carry less risk and of course, have less reward, in some cases. (I forgot to mention that naturopaths and occupational therapists can make well in excess of $100,000, with some making around or just above $200,000. Caveats: only where they own their own businesses and in Toronto. I don’t know about outside Toronto. Therapists can do quite well and make 6 figures too. Some therapists drive very nice cars.) There are many options out there, is all I am saying, that present much less risk.
 

While I respect the opinions of Kimura and Jaggers, they both obtained positions on Bay Street and so law school worked out for them financially (which helps to address the debt issue, if that was an issue for them). If it worked out for someone, they will of course be more likely to tell you that it’s worth doing. I have serious student debt from law school and received zero help from my parents financially. While I don’t work on Bay Street, I work in Toronto at a firm where I’ll be making a pretty good salary as a first year. So I too am happy with my decision to go to law school and wouldn’t change a thing. I do feel, though, and this is the important part, that it was a risky decision and that it could have easily not worked out.
 

Many of my non-Bay St friends do regret the decision, some of whom will be making $70k or $80k as a starting salary in Toronto  (no pension, limited benefits) and carry debt loads in excess of $100,000, even as much as $150,000. They know that the prospect of owning a home is a bit far out into the future. To be fair, maybe they will be happy 5-10+ years from now and not be wallowing in regret. I don’t know. Perhaps others can speak more to that.

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Frankie576
  • Law Student
4 hours ago, Garfield said:

I don’t disagree with anything @Kimurahas said. As one would conclude from reading my post, it’s a question of risk. The risk factor increases with the debt load. My point is that you have to think about whether you are prepared to take the risk. The point of my post was that there are other options that carry less risk and of course, have less reward, in some cases. (I forgot to mention that naturopaths and occupational therapists can make well in excess of $100,000, with some making around or just above $200,000. Caveats: only where they own their own businesses and in Toronto. I don’t know about outside Toronto. Therapists can do quite well and make 6 figures too. Some therapists drive very nice cars.) There are many options out there, is all I am saying, that present much less risk.
 

While I respect the opinions of Kimura and Jaggers, they both obtained positions on Bay Street and so law school worked out for them financially (which helps to address the debt issue, if that was an issue for them). If it worked out for someone, they will of course be more likely to tell you that it’s worth doing. I have serious student debt from law school and received zero help from my parents financially. While I don’t work on Bay Street, I work in Toronto at a firm where I’ll be making a pretty good salary as a first year. So I too am happy with my decision to go to law school and wouldn’t change a thing. I do feel, though, and this is the important part, that it was a risky decision and that it could have easily not worked out.
 

Many of my non-Bay St friends do regret the decision, some of whom will be making $70k or $80k as a starting salary in Toronto  (no pension, limited benefits) and carry debt loads in excess of $100,000, even as much as $150,000. They know that the prospect of owning a home is a bit far out into the future. To be fair, maybe they will be happy 5-10+ years from now and not be wallowing in regret. I don’t know. Perhaps others can speak more to that.

I think risk is the biggest thing that I worry about. Certainly I worry a lot more about the debt now than I would have when I was in my early to mid-twenties and had more time to pay it back. Being in my early 30s, having to uproot my husband (and sell or rent our home that we purchased a couple of years ago), makes the decision to go back a lot more daunting. I think as well that if I had thrived more in law school, the decision would be a lot easier to make. My grades, albeit not terrible, definitely weren't where I wanted them to be and I don't think were good enough for me to place well for the summer, part of this was because I was very stressed about how much, for me, was riding on these grades due to the amount of debt that I was taking on in law school. I was lucky enough to not have any debt up to this point despite pursuing a career in academia previously and that fact made it a little easier to swallow the law school debt, but I very quickly became aware of how much of a gamble this could be if I didn't get the grades required. 

Even if I do go back, I don't plan on pursuing Big Law in Toronto and I probably deep down would have liked to do 9-5, either way. My husband is a physician who works shift work and so if we do eventually have kids, it would be nice if one us could be home at regular hours at least. Regular hours doesn't seem overly realistic from what everyone is saying here - at least for the first several years of practice I assume. 

 

 

Edited by Frankie576
Edited to add that I wanted to thank everyone for their really kind and thoughtful responses!
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16 hours ago, Garfield said:

While I respect the opinions of Kimura and Jaggers, they both obtained positions on Bay Street and so law school worked out for them financially (which helps to address the debt issue, if that was an issue for them). If it worked out for someone, they will of course be more likely to tell you that it’s worth doing.

I didn't actually say that it's worth doing! I said that for most people, over the course of a long career, it will be worth it. Everybody's mileage may vary and for some people it absolutely will not work out.

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Don't go into law for the $. Go into law because you think you will enjoy the work. Can you shadow or tag along with a couple different lawyers for a day or two to get a sense of whether this is something you think will be a good fit?

As for regular hours, you can definitely work regular hours. It's, as with everything, a tradeoff between hours worked and income to a certain extent but you can find a decent paying job with decent hours in law. I cannot comment on the situation in Atlantic Canada other than to say I know a couple classmates/people I articled with who have done very well in Halifax, so it can be done. 

But go into law because you want to. Because the work excites you and fits in your wheelhouse. I'm not sure that if I had to do it over again, I would have chosen law. I'm not sure I wouldn't choose it. I've enjoyed it, made a very decent living and am somewhat competent in it. But I wouldn't call it a passion overall, parts of it yes. Of course, that's with the perspective of being at the tail end of my career and it may be coloured a bit with "been there done that, if I had to do it over again, it might be fun to try something different".

Good luck with your decision. Ultimately, only you, and your husband, can make the call as to what is best for you. If it's any help, if your husband says he is good with you continuing, take him at his word and drop the feelings of guilt. And because I am an old man and cannot completely shut up, one last word of advice. I take it from your initial post you are in your 30's. That's still relatively early in your career and your life. If you make the wrong decision, it doesn't end things irrevocably, you can still recover or move on successfully, the whole one door closes two more open up yadda yadda.....

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Case
  • Lawyer

One thing nice about law is that you actually have a hand on the lever that controls effort vs income 

Like, I am a real estate solo practitioner who maintains regular hours (about 8:40 to 5:20). I don't make insane money but IF I WANTED TO I could realistically put in more time and bill more, 100% for myself and my benefit. 

You cannot do this with any of the safe 9-5 public jobs. So it's not just that your income has a lower ceiling with those careers, it's also that you don't even have the chance to control your work or control how you earn money. 

I also feel like for most people a lawyer career will in fact be significantly more lucrative than most of those safer 9-5s. The risk I see with lawyering is on the low end of competency... I mean if you are an idiot relatively speaking or have poor judgment, sure your practice can simply fail. But good lawyers make multiple six figs and good teachers, cops, policy analysts, statisticians, etc. have no chance. Sure you can get promoted to the Manager of Senior Statistical Teaching Policy Analysis at the Ministry of Moncton and maybe make $200,000 but a decent Civil Litigator mid career in any Canadian city can match that. An experienced Solicitor can easily match or exceed that. I'm talking about Small Law here, of course.

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SNAILS
  • Law Student

I am a mature student, and I do not regret going to law school.

I think what's going on here might be "buyer's remorse." Ask yourself how you would feel if you applied to law school and did not get accepted. Would you be happy, or would you anxiously await getting the acceptance email?

It sounds like you already rearranged your life to make this work. If you change your mind about finishing law school now, you will not get back what you have already invested. The first year of law school has very little to do with practicing law. Lawyers have great earning potential, and I do not think you need to worry about not making enough money after graduating (whether you are on the high end or the low end of the pay range for a lawyer).  I would really encourage you to go through with finishing law school.

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