How much of an advantage is it if your parents pay for law school?

[Letsgo]

I would hope that one would be able to ask for advice on a forum such as this without wondering if they will hurt the feelings of those who don't have the same opportunities as them...

[Diplock]

1 minute ago, Letsgo said:

I would hope that one would be able to ask for advice on a forum such as this without wondering if they will hurt the feelings of those who don't have the same opportunities as them...

Yeah, there's a lot of things happening here at once, and I don't want to crap on the OP for that or get tangled up with that in my own criticisms and advice, which I feel are more legitimate. But it can be hard, sometimes.

My main advice, boiled down into a few sentences, is this. Treating the legal profession only as a vehicle to maximize earnings is unfortunate, often self-defeating, and offensive to many lawyers. Which is not to say every lawyer working in "big law" is doing that. But when you start with a "show me the money" attitude that's so ingrained you leave it completely unstated and assumed you've definitely set a tone.

Where my warning comes in is that not only is that attitude off-putting but there are very strong reasons why every student should look for something more in the way of motivation than that. There are many highly capable people practicing in law, and in law school. At the undergraduate law, a reasonably capable person driven by nothing other than ambition and the need to not disappoint their parents can excel relative to that peer group. In law school, and in future legal practice, you're going to be competing against people who are as naturally capable as you are and who genuinely want to do what they're doing and are engaged with it. If you don't have that, no amount of wanting to fulfill your parents' immigrant dreams for you is going to be an adequate substitute.

So, while this was never your question in the first place, my advice would be if you're trying to chart a path through law school, develop more than a superficial idea of where you hope that path leads. Because law school and legal practice chews up and spits out a lot of smart young people who figured they'd always be one of the brightest people in the room no matter where they went, because it's always been true to this point in their lives. Trust me when I say it isn't going to stay that way.

Good luck.

[Generic]

You remind me of a certain classmate of mine who had good stats but terrible social intelligence and low EQ. Regardless of where you go to school and how good your grades are - if you don't improve yourself on these aspects then you likely won't get very far. 

Law is about working with others. Don't forget that.

[EdmontonLaw]

20 minutes ago, Lui said:

OP, I understand that you have good intentions and genuinely want advice. However, I believe it would be more appropriate to have these discussions with someone you trust, privately. To draw a loose comparison, imagine you excelled in law school and began asking everyone for recommendations on which firms to apply to, knowing that there are others who didn't perform as well and may have limited options. Regardless of your innocent intentions, it's simply not a sensible course of action.

Agreed that i should ask this stuff to lawyers I know personally, but am I crazy for thinking that this shouldnt get people upset? Like every year on this forum people get accepted to UofT, McGill, UBC, some get scholarships, etc and you know a good percentage of these people are getting law school fully paid for. I said that part out loud (because otherwise my question would make no sense) and people in here who are in a highly successful profession with a lot going for them are upset with me. On r/LSA you have people asking "I got a 178 LSAT and have a 4.0 GPA, do I have a chance at T14 law schools?" and nobody gets shit on. Idk man, youre right tho i wasnt being sensible. I was actually at the library doing LSAT practice questions and a question came to mind so i quickly typed it out on here because I know my lawyer cousins are busy.

28 minutes ago, Letsgo said:

I would hope that one would be able to ask for advice on a forum such as this without wondering if they will hurt the feelings of those who don't have the same opportunities as them...

Man of course I didnt mean to make anyone feel some sort of way, this question was one for the lawyers to gauge how much student debt impacted them and how much I should take it into consideration if I get an offer from UofT (which would be an honour). And I know parents paying law school tuition is a privilege not many people get, but I know multiple people who's parents paid for their law school (including an american family friend who went to Stanford law and a UofT grad) so I didnt think it was something so crazy. Im not some rich trust fund kid either, Ive worked at my dads small business part time since I was 16 off the books for no payment and when I was 18 I accepted an offer to study at Rotman commerce (UofT) but my dad told me he wouldnt be able to pay for my living costs if I left edmonton, so I stayed and went to UofA.

 

[chaboywb]

1 hour ago, EdmontonLaw said:

Ive seen the Toronto big law recruitment data and it says otherwise regarding your first point. Only 36 of 449 Toronto big law hires come from schools in Canada outside Ontario. 25 of 36 are from McGill and Dalhousie (which I wont be applying to).

Most UBC grads want to work in Vancouver. Most uAlberta grads want to work in Calgary. Big law in those cities doesn't even pay that much less than Toronto. If finances are your only concern, then you are very likely better off staying in BC and making a bit less but avoiding tuition, relocation costs, housing, etc.

Six figure law school debt is definitely not negligible. Whether it's worth it is a different question. But let's say your 100k figure is accurate - that's 100k that could be invested during the first 5 years of your career rather than put toward debt. Even with modest returns, that adds up substantially over time. My law school debt is a constant weight - it creates more pressure to perform at work and takes much of the joy out of discretionary spending. Would I do it again? In a heartbeat, because in the long run it is going to pay off. But it still sucks.

[chaboywb]

7 minutes ago, EdmontonLaw said:

Agreed that i should ask this stuff to lawyers I know personally, but am I crazy for thinking that this shouldnt get people upset? Like every year on this forum people get accepted to UofT, McGill, UBC, some get scholarships, etc and you know a good percentage of these people are getting law school fully paid for. I said that part out loud (because otherwise my question would make no sense) and people in here who are in a highly successful profession with a lot going for them are upset with me. On r/LSA you have people asking "I got a 178 LSAT and have a 4.0 GPA, do I have a chance at T14 law schools?" and nobody gets shit on. Idk man, youre right tho i wasnt being sensible. I was actually at the library doing LSAT practice questions and a question came to mind so i quickly typed it out on here because I know my lawyer cousins are busy.

Man of course I didnt mean to make anyone feel some sort of way, this question was one for the lawyers to gauge how much student debt impacted them and how much I should take it into consideration if I get an offer from UofT (which would be an honour). And I know parents paying law school tuition is a privilege not many people get, but I know multiple people who's parents paid for their law school (including an american family friend who went to Stanford law and a UofT grad) so I didnt think it was something so crazy. Im not some rich trust fund kid either, Ive worked at my dads small business part time since I was 16 off the books for no payment and when I was 18 I accepted an offer to study at Rotman commerce (UofT) but my dad told me he wouldnt be able to pay for my living costs if I left edmonton, so I stayed and went to UofA.

 

I don't think you deserve to be chastised at all for your question. From my perspective (and likely most people who come from a position where parents paying for professional school would never, ever happen), it's a funny question because obviously you should take the cheapest approach. What this boils down to is whether a UofT education is worth $100,000 more than a UBC education. I'd say the answer is no, but that requires you to know that there just isn't that big of a gap between law schools in Canada (as opposed to the United States, where a Harvard Law degree is worth multiples of $100,000 more than a Cooley Law degree).

On the other hand, I'm a bit biased because I got a job in Toronto big law from a school that doesn't have the best rate of placement on Bay. If things hadn't worked out, perhaps I'd have wished I got that shiny UofT degree.

[SpaceTigerX]

2 hours ago, EdmontonLaw said:

My parents can afford to pay tuition all 3 years and living costs. They also paid for my undergrad and I live at home so I can graduate law school at 26 with 0 debt. Does this even matter or is the debt from law school negligible given the salary of most lawyers? If I get accepted to UofT, should I attend despite probably graduating with $100k+ of debt? For a number of reasons my parents dont want me to go to Toronto so I doubt they would pay any of the 33k tuition, just living costs. Whereas if I attend Allard, UVic, or UAlberta they told me they would pay all the costs. 

First, ignore all these folks commenting on your attitude, privilege, and how you should make your own decisions. Most of them don't understand cultural norms. 

If you do law school properly, so get involved and make yourself a competitive candidate you can accomplish your goals for sure at Allard or UofA. You don't need to go to U of T. Yes, some firms hire from specific schools, but it's not like you will have zero opportunities because you didn't go to U of T. 

If your parents are willing to help out take it. Even if you get a great salary after law school, why spend upwards of 1700 a month to pay of the loan when you can put that money towards investments or you can pay back your parents. 

As for the attitude comments, you're still a puppy. Someone will definitely smack you on your nose with a newspaper and set you on the proper path. 

 

 

[hiccups]

1 minute ago, SpaceTigerX said:

Most of them don't understand cultural norms. 

interesting assumption

[Mal]

42 minutes ago, Letsgo said:

I would hope that one would be able to ask for advice on a forum such as this without wondering if they will hurt the feelings of those who don't have the same opportunities as them...

Let me translate how EdmontonLaw reads to me:

EdmontonLaw: Hai guyz. My parents will give me $100K+ but it doesn't matter right cause lawyers make $$$. Right? LOL.

Everyone else: Uhh, no, that's a lot of money.

Pzabby: These are all good schools, you could get Bay Street jobs from any of them and could get rejected from UofT.

EdmontonLaw: Hurr durr, stats bro, u dumb.

There is nothing wrong with the underlying questions. Plenty of people have law school paid for, me included.

But there is a difference between, as Diplock stated, someone who cares about making money and someone who assumes that is the only worthwhile goal. 

[SpaceTigerX]

5 minutes ago, hiccups said:

interesting assumption

Argh I know. I generally avoid assumptions, but I didn't want to write more than necessary.

[CleanHands]

13 minutes ago, Mal said:

But there is a difference between, as Diplock stated, someone who cares about making money and someone who assumes that is the only worthwhile goal. 

I don't think even the OP has any clue what their goal is.

They would prefer to be out west but they perceive Bay Street as being the place to be.

They want to work in BigLaw and make wicked bank but what they actually want to do ideally is government work of some kind.

It's fine for them to not know what they are doing or how any of this works at this point, but It's also impossible to give them any meaningful advice when they have provided nonsensical and contradictory info about what exactly they want to achieve.

[Jaggers]

11 minutes ago, SpaceTigerX said:

If your parents are willing to help out take it. Even if you get a great salary after law school, why spend upwards of 1700 a month to pay of the loan when you can put that money towards investments or you can pay back your parents. 

If your goal is to support your parents, they can probably get a better investment return than you will pay on your PSLOC, though of course you never know.

It is either you paying $1700/month for the next ten years, or your parents paying $1700/month for the last ten years.

[Cool_name]

Op, your question is really is u of t worth paying full fair for, compared to a true free ride elsewhere. 
 

Frankly, I don’t think u of t is worth it, even if you had to pay full fair elsewhere. 
 

There is also big law in Vancouver, the amount you would pay in debt would negate the salary difference. In the long run, bay st may win out, but it doesn’t sound like you want to stay in for the long run. 
 

In any event, if earning the most possible is your goal, I don’t think law is the best choice, especially as not everyone gets a job in big law. 

[EdmontonLaw]

46 minutes ago, Generic said:

You remind me of a certain classmate of mine who had good stats but terrible social intelligence and low EQ. Regardless of where you go to school and how good your grades are - if you don't improve yourself on these aspects then you likely won't get very far. 

Law is about working with others. Don't forget that.

Not terrible social intelligence because I get along with people in general, but I have noticed that I will say something with no malice and sometimes people will take it a certain way. However I am very quick to apologise even if I dont fully understand why Im apologising, I just hate people who put others down even jokingly (shows insecurity and 99% of the time projecting). I think lack of analysis before i say words is due to me having ADHD. Like now that I read my original post back after reading criticisms I regret ever making this thread. But clients wont care about that, so yes I have to work on it. 

 

29 minutes ago, chaboywb said:

I don't think you deserve to be chastised at all for your question. From my perspective (and likely most people who come from a position where parents paying for professional school would never, ever happen), it's a funny question because obviously you should take the cheapest approach. What this boils down to is whether a UofT education is worth $100,000 more than a UBC education. I'd say the answer is no, but that requires you to know that there just isn't that big of a gap between law schools in Canada (as opposed to the United States, where a Harvard Law degree is worth multiples of $100,000 more than a Cooley Law degree).

On the other hand, I'm a bit biased because I got a job in Toronto big law from a school that doesn't have the best rate of placement on Bay. If things hadn't worked out, perhaps I'd have wished I got that shiny UofT degree.

Youre exactly right. I think care too much about the prestige of a high ranking school law degree and working in big law, which is a total American way of looking at things. Probably an ego thing as well. Also i havent even taken the lsat yet (although I have a pretty good idea) so theres a good chance I get into neither UofT and UBC. I think people thought I was trying to act like a big shot who can just walk into any law school, I am fully prepared for multiple rejections. Where did you go if you dont mind me asking?

12 minutes ago, SpaceTigerX said:

First, ignore all these folks commenting on your attitude, privilege, and how you should make your own decisions. Most of them don't understand cultural norms. 

If you do law school properly, so get involved and make yourself a competitive candidate you can accomplish your goals for sure at Allard or UofA. You don't need to go to U of T. Yes, some firms hire from specific schools, but it's not like you will have zero opportunities because you didn't go to U of T. 

If your parents are willing to help out take it. Even if you get a great salary after law school, why spend upwards of 1700 a month to pay of the loan when you can put that money towards investments or you can pay back your parents. 

As for the attitude comments, you're still a puppy. Someone will definitely smack you on your nose with a newspaper and set you on the proper path. 

 

 

Trust me Ive been humbled many times in my academic life already lol. I think I will go to UBC if they accept me and if I still want to work on bay street by the time Im up for recruitment, then I will apply to toronto law firms and if I was a good enough candidate for them out of UofT then I will be a good enough candidate out of UBC as well (hopefully). Also yes I think south asian, other middle eastern, and east asian first generation immigrants will probably understand what I mean when I talk about my parents. Not to say other culture's parents dont apply a lot of pressure on their kids, but its just a different kind of pressure. Like you'll be looked down on by your own parents for the rest of their life type of pressure.

8 minutes ago, Mal said:

Let me translate how EdmontonLaw reads to me:

EdmontonLaw: Hai guyz. My parents will give me $100K+ but it doesn't matter right cause lawyers make $$$. Right? LOL.

Everyone else: Uhh, no, that's a lot of money.

Pzabby: These are all good schools, you could get Bay Street jobs from any of them and could get rejected from UofT.

EdmontonLaw: Hurr durr, stats bro, u dumb.

There is nothing wrong with the underlying questions. Plenty of people have law school paid for, me included.

But there is a difference between, as Diplock stated, someone who cares about making money and someone who assumes that is the only worthwhile goal. 

Thats funny and also a gross misrepresentation of what happened there

Me: my parents will pay my law school tuition if I stay in BC/Alberta, but not UofT (which is where I've wanted to go since high school and because more big law opportunity). More context: they cant afford UofT's tuition and they want me to stay close to my hundreds of extended family members who are all in Edmonton/Vancouver. So should I get the UofT oppurtunity, is the student debt upon graduating enough to reject toronto and stay in the west.

 

Everyone else: Take your parent's offer, you may not even work in big law and even if you do you may never make that money back. 

 

Pzabby: You could break into Toronto big law from any law school.

 

Me: Provides the Toronto summer 2023 recruit 2L data that shows how little students from other law schools get jobs in toronto. Never called him any names or said anything even remotely insulting.

 

Pzabby: no reply

 

Mal: youre an asshole, youre a jackass, etc, etc

 

[EdmontonLaw]

15 minutes ago, CleanHands said:

I don't think even the OP has any clue what their goal is.

They would prefer to be out west but they perceive Bay Street as being the place to be.

They want to work in BigLaw and make wicked bank but what they actually want to do ideally is government work of some kind.

It's fine for them to not know what they are doing or how any of this works at this point, but It's also impossible to give them any meaningful advice when they have provided nonsensical and contradictory info about what exactly they want to achieve.

 

3 minutes ago, Cool_name said:

Op, your question is really is u of t worth paying full fair for, compared to a true free ride elsewhere. 
 

Frankly, I don’t think u of t is worth it, even if you had to pay full fair elsewhere. 
 

There is also big law in Vancouver, the amount you would pay in debt would negate the salary difference. In the long run, bay st may win out, but it doesn’t sound like you want to stay in for the long run. 
 

In any event, if earning the most possible is your goal, I don’t think law is the best choice, especially as not everyone gets a job in big law. 

I want to work in the legal profession long enough to establish myself and be well off enough so that I dont have to worry about paying my kids' tuitions, house payments, etc. I already said what I want to have money for. Big law will help me achieve these financial goals faster (and I will admit it is an ego thing). Once I have "enough" money (idk what that figure is) I hope to run as an MP or maybe be appointed a senator. Or maybe I really enjoy being a big law partner and stay there until I retire. Or maybe I quit big law after 1 year. Point is, I just want to have the most options I possibly can.

[Rashabon]

OP suggest you just stop adding fuel to the fire. Your original question was phrased really badly (people tend to not enjoy questions which have an obvious answer to anyone with a pulse) and you're now following into the trap of vomiting every thought that crosses through your mind into a post. It's cool you want to run as an MP or be appointed senator. I want my brain uploaded to a computer so I can live forever. It's always fun having unrealistic goals but a general pro life tip is to do a better job of reading the room and figuring out when it's better to just keep those thoughts to yourself.

Edited May 25, 2023 by Rashabon

[CleanHands]

10 minutes ago, Rashabon said:

unrealistic goals

I disagree; based on this thread I think that he'd fit in perfectly in Parliament.

[chameli B]

Quote

I disagree; based on this thread I think that he'd fit in perfectly in Parliament.

For those of us not getting into Parliament and having to pay for school ourselves, I suggest cancelling our Disney Plus subscriptions to offset our lack of advantage.

[EdmontonLaw]

2 minutes ago, Rashabon said:

OP suggest you just stop adding fuel to the fire. Your original question was phrased really badly (people tend to not enjoy questions which have an obvious answer to anyone with a pulse) and you're now following into the trap of vomiting every thought that crosses through your mind into a post. It's cool you want to run as an MP or be appointed senator. I want my brain uploaded to a computer so I can live forever. It's always fun having unrealistic goals but a general pro life tip is to do a better job of reading the room and figuring out when it's better to just keep those thoughts to yourself.

Is what it is, I have too much time on my hands rn. But why can’t I be in government?I have almost a 4.0 GPA (best 3) so Im intelligent enough, and people will say “OP your personality sucks” but so does every politician’s. I rest my case.

[Jaggers]

1 hour ago, chaboywb said:

Six figure law school debt is definitely not negligible. Whether it's worth it is a different question. But let's say your 100k figure is accurate - that's 100k that could be invested during the first 5 years of your career rather than put toward debt. Even with modest returns, that adds up substantially over time. My law school debt is a constant weight - it creates more pressure to perform at work and takes much of the joy out of discretionary spending. Would I do it again? In a heartbeat, because in the long run it is going to pay off. But it still sucks.

But if you don't take the money, your parents have it to invest, even with modest returns that add up over time. Taking your parents money doesn't make school "free". So decide separately where the best place to go to school is based on your career goals and where you want to live, and then if it's you or your parents who will pay it over time.

[helloall]

None of our current senators attending UofTTT Law. Maybe consider USask? 

[EdmontonLaw]

Just want to close it on this: real lawyers who have their JDs have their feelings hurt because…my parents paid for my schooling? Every single one of you would do the same for your kids. And some in the comments are also not happy because I want to attend UofT in order to get hired at a more prestigious firm, in order to make more money. Yes, me and every other big law attorney. Did my original post come off as spoiled? Yes. Are some of the replies just moral grandstanding? Yes.

[Mal]

15 minutes ago, EdmontonLaw said:

Just want to close it on this: real lawyers who have their JDs have their feelings hurt because…my parents paid for my schooling? Every single one of you would do the same for your kids. And some in the comments are also not happy because I want to attend UofT in order to get hired at a more prestigious firm, in order to make more money. Yes, me and every other big law attorney. Did my original post come off as spoiled? Yes. Are some of the replies just moral grandstanding? Yes.

[Chewy]

1 hour ago, EdmontonLaw said:

Every single one of you would do the same for your kids. 

Lol no, and that doesn’t make me any less of a parent.

I don’t think anyone’s feelings should be hurt by this thread. You may come across as a bit tone deaf, but you’re young. 

Edited May 25, 2023 by Chewy

[betterlatethannever]

1 hour ago, EdmontonLaw said:

real lawyers who have their JDs have their feelings hurt

Please don't flatter yourself - I would be shocked if anyone else's feelings were hurt in this thread. The arrogance is just a bit much.

 

1 hour ago, EdmontonLaw said:

Every single one of you would do the same for your kids.

I get the impression you may not be a parent. Perhaps you should not suggest what others would or would not do for their children. Your assumptions do you no favours in a forum where you sought the opinion of others.