Favourite Courses/Professors

[BS15]

Hey everyone,

I'm starting 2L and have been looking at course offerings to create a schedule. I realize course selection is largely based on interests and what area you want to practice in, but I'm curious if anyone knows of any can't miss courses and/or professors? Whether it is from personal experience or general knowledge from previous QL students.

I'm also wondering if there are any courses that you might recommend taking regardless of interest/practice area? Maybe because the course can be beneficial to all practice areas.

Thank you in advance!!

[Scrivener]

I could understand people being hesitant to respond publicly about specific professors though it's very helpful information for current and incoming students, so I'm going to both piggyback on this thread and invite DM's if someone is more willing to share in that format, please!

 

Freedman's Estate Litigation and Imseis' Ethics classes are both in the same timeslot for the upcoming Winter. Each fulfills a different requirement (advocacy, Ethics). If anyone has any input on either of these two, that would be particularly helpful.

[BlushAndTheBar]

You have probably heard this advice already but it was advice I didn't take and wish I did! Do not take more than one 4 credit course in a semester! 14-16 credits is the sweet spot. 

I am hesitant to discuss which specific courses I took and liked/didn't like but my biggest suggestion is to take courses that you're genuinely passionate about/interested in. I took a few classes because I thought I "had" to and ended up regretting it (well...just one). Of course, if you want to go into criminal defence don't take all corporate classes (a little bit of a no brainer). 

I also recommend taking something more experiential like the clinic, CAL, moot, international trade practicum, independent study project, DOJ, the judge internship etc. I find that these practical type experiences really helped me enjoy the law school experience more. Unconventional advice but I would say some sort of experiential class is a can't miss. 

If you're interested in litigation, a lot of upper years will tell you to take evidence and administrative law... but...I don't know whether this is good or bad advice. ... maybe someone can sound off in the comments. 

 

9 hours ago, Scrivener said:

I could understand people being hesitant to respond publicly about specific professors though it's very helpful information for current and incoming students, so I'm going to both piggyback on this thread and invite DM's if someone is more willing to share in that format, please!

 

Freedman's Estate Litigation and Imseis' Ethics classes are both in the same timeslot for the upcoming Winter. Each fulfills a different requirement (advocacy, Ethics). If anyone has any input on either of these two, that would be particularly helpful.

If you are in 2L I would suggest taking Ethics in 3L, no rhyme or reason just my instinct. If you're in 3L maybe you can take another Estates related class or Maur's ethics in the fall? 

Edited August 2, 2021 by BlushAndTheBar
correction

[BlushAndTheBar]

8 minutes ago, BlushAndTheBar said:

 

 

Edited August 2, 2021 by BlushAndTheBar
accidental duplication

[BlushAndTheBar]

Wait!!! Upon further reflection I have realized.... Advanced Legal Research with Professor Bracci is a must take course! Truly!

[BS15]

On 8/1/2021 at 7:31 PM, BlushAndTheBar said:

You have probably heard this advice already but it was advice I didn't take and wish I did! Do not take more than one 4 credit course in a semester! 14-16 credits is the sweet spot. 

Thanks for the advice! Would you mind elaborating on this point? I assume the reason behind this is simply that 4 credit courses have larger workloads. But would you say a semester of 4-4-3-3 (4 courses and 14 credits total) has a larger workload than 3-3-3-3-3 (5 courses and 15 credits total)? Or alternatively, 4-3-3-3-3 (5 courses and 16 credits total)?

I am wondering because I was planning on taking 4-4-4-3 (4 courses and 15 credits total) in the Fall semester for this upcoming year.

2 hours ago, BlushAndTheBar said:

Wait!!! Upon further reflection I have realized.... Advanced Legal Research with Professor Bracci is a must take course! Truly!

Great to know - thanks!!

[BlushAndTheBar]

12 hours ago, BS15 said:

Thanks for the advice! Would you mind elaborating on this point? I assume the reason behind this is simply that 4 credit courses have larger workloads. But would you say a semester of 4-4-3-3 (4 courses and 14 credits total) has a larger workload than 3-3-3-3-3 (5 courses and 15 credits total)? Or alternatively, 4-3-3-3-3 (5 courses and 16 credits total)?

I am wondering because I was planning on taking 4-4-4-3 (4 courses and 15 credits total) in the Fall semester for this upcoming year.

Great to know - thanks!!

*Generally* classes with 4 credit weightings are more challenging workload wise and content wise and some professors will even tell you this the first week of classes. I would say that both a 4-4-3-3 and a 3-3-3-3-3/4-3-3-3-3 are doable depending on the classes. If you are in 2L I wouldn't recommend taking business associations, taxation and administrative law in the same semester for example, those are all notoriously challenging courses. 

I would say maybe re-consider doing three 4 credit courses, that does seem like an overwhelming combination. 

This is all assuming that you don't have a pre-existing "expertise"/understanding of one of the 4 credit topics. If you have already memorized the CBCA word for word and have been a paralegal at a business boutique before law school then you probably could be okay taking 4-4-4-3  if one of the courses is business associations (for example).

Taking myself as an example, I did two 4 credit courses in both 2L semesters & 3 credit courses totalling more than 17 total credits (I received special permission) both semesters and lived to tell the tale. However, this was with very little sleep and somewhat shaky mental health. Because of this I caution you in your current selection of 4-4-4-3 (especially if you're doing an OCI and/or extracurriculars in that semester). 

[Dussy]

1 hour ago, BlushAndTheBar said:

*Generally* classes with 4 credit weightings are more challenging workload wise and content wise and some professors will even tell you this the first week of classes. I would say that both a 4-4-3-3 and a 3-3-3-3-3/4-3-3-3-3 are doable depending on the classes. If you are in 2L I wouldn't recommend taking business associations, taxation and administrative law in the same semester for example, those are all notoriously challenging courses. 

I would say maybe re-consider doing three 4 credit courses, that does seem like an overwhelming combination. 

This is all assuming that you don't have a pre-existing "expertise"/understanding of one of the 4 credit topics. If you have already memorized the CBCA word for word and have been a paralegal at a business boutique before law school then you probably could be okay taking 4-4-4-3  if one of the courses is business associations (for example).

Taking myself as an example, I did two 4 credit courses in both 2L semesters & 3 credit courses totalling more than 17 total credits (I received special permission) both semesters and lived to tell the tale. However, this was with very little sleep and somewhat shaky mental health. Because of this I caution you in your current selection of 4-4-4-3 (especially if you're doing an OCI and/or extracurriculars in that semester). 

Being that I am in a clinic this year and also taking biz associations and civil procedure, should I not be taking taxation at all this year?

[BS15]

2 hours ago, Dussy said:

Being that I am in a clinic this year and also taking biz associations and civil procedure, should I not be taking taxation at all this year?

 

3 hours ago, BlushAndTheBar said:

Because of this I caution you in your current selection of 4-4-4-3 (especially if you're doing an OCI and/or extracurriculars in that semester). 

To build on what @Dussy said, I should note that one of my 4 credit courses is a clinic (8 credits total). I've heard from upper years that clinics carry a heavy workload but I think I'll stick with the 4-4-4-3 combination despite your better judgement lol. I would rather take one less course and carry a heavier workload in the three 4 credit courses.

[BlushAndTheBar]

1 hour ago, Dussy said:

Being that I am in a clinic this year and also taking biz associations and civil procedure, should I not be taking taxation at all this year?

I would need more information to answer this question but depending on your pre-existing knowledge/abilities, your personal goals, the classes you plan on taking in addition to the ones you've mentioned and your prior commitments to extracurriculars you could be OK. The director of the business clinic may inform you of their expectations the first week of classes, it was my understanding that last year she expected students to work 7-8 hours a week in addition to the 3 hour class time on Wednesday. You are still graded on the curve in the clinic and more often than not a lot of the class is on the Deans Honour List so the expectations are a little higher than the average course. Clinic expectations from your supervisor really start to pick up in the winter and although your final evaluation for the clinic is in the 2nd semester, that doesn't mean you can necessarily slack on client work in the fall semester. I know someone who is quite honestly gifted and an all star in business law... if I take them as an example they received a one of the highest marks in contracts and took taxation and business associations in the same semester. They got one of the highest marks in both taxation and business associations... but only took two 3 credit courses along with them and did no extracurriculars. Would they have still gotten high marks with the business clinic on top of it? Knowing them I think so, but then again they didn't do the clinic so who can be sure?  If you're reading the anecdote about my friend and it sounds like i'm describing you, you could probably do it but it's hard to predict with near certainty what your end result will be in terms of grades (if that is something you are concerned about)... only you can know! 

I hope this helps! Sorry for my ramblings... 

1 minute ago, BS15 said:

 

To build on what @Dussy said, I should note that one of my 4 credit courses is a clinic (8 credits total). I've heard from upper years that clinics carry a heavy workload but I think I'll stick with the 4-4-4-3 combination despite your better judgement lol. I would rather take one less course and carry a heavier workload in the three 4 credit courses.

That's okay! Honestly, you know yourself better than I do! All I can do is help you manage your expectations based on my prior experiences, and that should be taken with a grain of salt as well! 

 

[BS15]

4 minutes ago, BlushAndTheBar said:

That's okay! Honestly, you know yourself better than I do! All I can do is help you manage your expectations based on my prior experiences, and that should be taken with a grain of salt as well! 

Thank you so much! Everything you've said is super helpful. Aside from chatting with upper years, I haven't found many resources which help incoming 2L's understand what is considered a heavy vs light course load, or the difference in workload between 3 credit courses, 4 credit courses and clinics, etc. I guess Mike and the career development team are always a good resource but these don't seem like the type of questions to bother them with.

[QueensDenning]

All of this is so helpful. Not to beat this topic to death, but I was planning on taking biz law clinic as well as taxation, biz ass and going through OCI’s. My question: is tax really that bad? Considering the OCIs, should I wait and take it second semester (though this would mean missing out of Prof Cockfield)? 

[BlockedQuebecois]

I didn’t take tax, but in my experience business clinics are usually very little work. They’re not at all like the more strenuous poverty-law adjacent clinics (for lack of a better term). So if your concern is the combination of tax and a clinic (plus OCIs), I wouldn’t worry. 

At Oz, whether people found tax to be a lot of work or not seemed entirely random. I don’t know anyone that found bus ass to be all that difficult

Edited August 3, 2021 by BlockedQuebecois

[BlushAndTheBar]

2 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

I didn’t take tax, but in my experience business clinics are usually very little work. They’re not at all like the more strenuous poverty-law adjacent clinics (for lack of a better term). So if your concern is the combination of tax and a clinic (plus OCIs), I wouldn’t worry. 

At Oz, whether people found tax to be a lot of work or not seemed entirely random. I don’t know anyone that found bus ass to be all that difficult

BlockedQuebecois I am a long time follower and fan from the LawStudents.ca days! I tip my hat to you sir! I really really really hate to do this to an esteemed and respected poster such as yourself but I have to caution colleagues in applying experiences from Oz clinics to Queen's clinics..

However, there is a good chance your advice still stands and I am making much to do about nothing! 

[Dussy]

1 minute ago, BlushAndTheBar said:

BlockedQuebecois I am a long time follower and fan from the LawStudents.ca days! I tip my hat to you sir! I really really really hate to do this to an esteemed and respected poster such as yourself but I have to caution colleagues in applying experiences from Oz clinics to Queen's clinics..

However, there is a good chance your advice still stands and I am making much to do about nothing! 

FWIW, an individual I spoke to who did QBLC last year said it was a ton of work. I can report back in a couple months haha

[BlockedQuebecois]

I’m not speaking solely from my personal experience, but from talking to coworkers who did business clinics at various schools (including Queens). The fundamental problem with business clinics is that anybody with a real business is going to be better off going to an actual lawyer for their legal advice, and they will be able to afford it (even if they don’t want to pay it). That means the vast majority of clients coming to a business law clinic really aren’t at the stage where a lawyer is going to be very helpful, and therefore the work product will be very simple. 

In contrast, poverty law adjacent clinics are servicing people with difficult problems who actually do need a lawyer, they just can’t afford one.

From what I’ve heard Queens has one of the better clinics in terms of scope of services, which I imagine does increase workload relative to Oz’s, but overall the work is still simple and it’s not terribly time consuming (again, compared to other clinics). But hey others may disagree, and you’re always going to have people who find identical experiences more or less stressful/time consuming. 

Also I am a business clinic abolitionist, so I’m sure that is colouring my view 😛 

Edited August 3, 2021 by BlockedQuebecois

[BlushAndTheBar]

4 hours ago, Dussy said:

Being that I am in a clinic this year and also taking biz associations and civil procedure, should I not be taking taxation at all this year?

I will preface what I am about to advise with this: Something about the recruits all being in the winter of 2021 made the curve for business associations in 2020 significantly more intense. Even if you were to show me similar grade distribution charts for 2020 and 2019 I would still argue that it was harder to achieve respectable grades in fall 2020... SO my advice is heavily influenced by that experience.

With that said, I found civil procedure to be a little more reasonable than business associations even though they had similar credit weighting. Even with the Toronto recruit being in the fall this year I can't help but advise you to take taxation at the same time as civil procedure, but I would still caution you to be a little more selective with your remaining courses. 

Overall I think taking taxation is a good idea and I commend you for considering it! Just maybe think about the other courses you're taking with it.

But that is just me!! You know yourself better than I do 😀

[BlushAndTheBar]

1 hour ago, QueensDenning said:

All of this is so helpful. Not to beat this topic to death, but I was planning on taking biz law clinic as well as taxation, biz ass and going through OCI’s. My question: is tax really that bad? Considering the OCIs, should I wait and take it second semester (though this would mean missing out of Prof Cockfield)? 

My understanding is that it is a challenging but rewarding class. Looking at the grade distribution chart from Winter 2019, 49% of the 63 person class achieved a B grade and no one achieved below that. I haven't taken the bar exam but I also understand there is some tax content on it as well. 

My parting quote/response to the question "is taxation really that bad" is from Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban: 

"You're going to suffer...but you're going to be happy about it?" 

Also I understand that taxation is 100% final exam, if Toronto OCI's are the first week of school like they were in 2019 you could be okay? But if you're doing Ottawa OCI's in the winter maybe take tax in the Winter because then you're delaying having to write your tax exam until April 2022 when you've hopefully already secured a 2L summer job. 

Finally, there are some very smart cookies in the area of taxation at Queen's Law. I won't doxx them here but do reach out to Helen Connop if you end up registering for the course because she has their names as well. I can think of several people at the top of my head that would be great to reach out to

Edited August 3, 2021 by BlushAndTheBar
Additional points I forgot to add originally

[CleanHands]

2 hours ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

The fundamental problem with business clinics is that anybody with a real business is going to be better off going to an actual lawyer for their legal advice, and they will be able to afford it (even if they don’t want to pay it). That means the vast majority of clients coming to a business law clinic really aren’t at the stage where a lawyer is going to be very helpful, and therefore the work product will be very simple. 

In contrast, poverty law adjacent clinics are servicing people with difficult problems who actually do need a lawyer, they just can’t afford one.

I'm glad you've evolved to the point of making this distinction now. 😉

[Psychometronic]

I didn't attend Queens, but I just want to say that experiential learning is invaluable and you should try to get some of this experience before graduating. For me, it was a stark reminder that law school is nothing like practice and it was ultimately a useful bridge between law school and my articles. I think my school (UBC) made the right choice by making it a mandatory requirement. 

 

Edited August 5, 2021 by Psychometronic

[Dussy]

On a related note, does anyone know if it is difficult for 2Ls to get into certain seminar classes that are capped at ~40 students? If so, which?

Edited August 5, 2021 by Dussy