How much debt is acceptable for law school?

[meandtheboys]

30 minutes ago, Barry said:

I actually factored that in and still am not able to get the math to add up. I’d be interested in a breakdown just for my own curiosity and maybe the benefit of future students to see this mastery in budgeting. Also would be interested to know your wage then if you’re comfortable sharing. 

Sure, I don't mind.

Not going to look at my tax returns for exact amounts but here is a rough estimate:

- I had IB credits from high school and also skipped one year of undergrad, which saved about 1 year of tuition (~6,000)

~ 5,000 from working in the summer before 1st year

~ 3,000 from scholarships over the years

1st year ~18,000 income - rent (8 mos * 800 = 6400) - tuition (~6,000) - food/clothes etc. (~2,500) = 3k left

2nd year ~20,000 income - rent (8 mos * 800 = 6400) - tuition (~6,000) - food/clothes etc. (~2,500) = 5k left

3rd year ~22,000 income - rent (8 mos * 800 = 6400) - tuition (~6,000) - food/clothes etc. (~2,500) = 7k left

So I had 23k saved over 3.5 years - one 10k vacation = 13k left before law school; UBC tuition is ~12k so I had enough for 1 year of tuition right as I started

Edited August 20, 2021 by meandtheboys

[GGrievous]

20 minutes ago, meandtheboys said:

Sure, I don't mind.

Not going to look at my tax returns for exact amounts but here is a rough estimate:

- I had IB credits from high school and also skipped one year of undergrad, which saved about 1 year of tuition (~6,000)

~ 5,000 from working in the summer before 1st year

~ 3,000 from scholarships over the years

1st year ~18,000 income - rent (8 mos * 800 = 6400) - tuition (~6,000) - food/clothes etc. (~2,500) = 3k left

2nd year ~20,000 income - rent (8 mos * 800 = 6400) - tuition (~6,000) - food/clothes etc. (~2,500) = 5k left

3rd year ~22,000 income - rent (8 mos * 800 = 6400) - tuition (~6,000) - food/clothes etc. (~2,500) = 7k left

So I had 23k saved over 3.5 years - one 10k vacation = 13k left before law school; UBC tuition is ~12k so I had enough for 1 year of tuition right as I started

Thanks. I think I wasn’t factoring no rent over the summer, and that a typical student job has a net pay that high. But great work! Will be nice to graduate with such a minimal amount.

Edited August 20, 2021 by Barry

[meandtheboys]

6 minutes ago, Barry said:

Thanks. I think I wasn’t factoring no rent over the summer, and that a typical student job has a net pay that high. But great work! Will be nice to graduate with such a minimal amount.

Thanks!  If I had to factor summer rent I would just skip my vacation and I would end up in roughly the same spot.  I worked at a boutique firm as an assistant which paid decently, and I stacked all my classes (up to 12 hrs a day) just to accommodate my work schedule.  I also worked during exams if I could, which bumps the total up slightly.

[Rashabon]

2 hours ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

I think they were saying only working twice a week and making enough money to fully and independently support yourself while also paying tuition is unfathomable. 

Also my undergrad was way harder than law school, certainly not a joke. Law school was a joke. So YMMV. 

Agreed. Once I got the hang of law school (which came very quickly) I found it mostly a breeze. The difficulty also decreases dramatically as you move through law school which is the inverse of undergrad.

[Meryl]

On 8/14/2021 at 12:57 PM, LMP said:

In any case if you chat with the many incoming students about to submerge Canadian Law schools you'll find the salary expectations for nearly all of them to be far beyond the realistic range.

From one 0L to another, what would you say students’ future salary expectations should be? Assuming they’re making around the average for a lawyer in a few different sectors...say, big law vs a boutique firm vs a government job. 
 

This is an open question if anyone with more law school/professional experience wants to chime in. 

[Apple]

Making a budget is critical to reduce debt loads. Budget and work. 

 

 

Edited August 21, 2021 by Apple

[BlockedQuebecois]

1 hour ago, Meryl said:

From one 0L to another, what would you say students’ future salary expectations should be? Assuming they’re making around the average for a lawyer in a few different sectors...say, big law vs a boutique firm vs a government job. 
 

This is an open question if anyone with more law school/professional experience wants to chime in. 

There are too many variables to truly answer this question, including jurisdiction. The ZSA salary guide gives you a decent idea of the general range of salaries for vaguely “corporate” law.

Articling salaries in Canada run the gamut from $117,000 (annualized, roughly $90,000 during the articling term) at Davies in Toronto down to $20,000 or lower at criminal defence firms I know of in Vancouver. In some jurisdictions, articling may still be unpaid or may only include a few hundred bucks of a “stipend” each month. 

[Thrive92]

On 8/13/2021 at 10:39 PM, Renerik said:

How frugal should one be while in law school?

I would say not very. You should still count your dollars though. Definitely much less frugal than how you were back in undergrad.

On 8/13/2021 at 10:39 PM, Renerik said:

Graduating with how much debt is considered "too much"? 30k? 50k? 100k+?

If you were receiving student loans since undergrad, you are probably already starting off with 40 - 50k in debt. I would say around 200k is considered "too much", but this limit is subjective to individual students and their financial situation prior to starting law school

 

On 8/13/2021 at 10:39 PM, Renerik said:

Is having tuition and cost of living as one of your chief concerns for attending a school pennywise and pound foolish?

Not really no. In fact, I would say its pretty smart to consider the tuition and cost of living as one of your chief concern.

On 8/13/2021 at 10:39 PM, Renerik said:

My contribution: Three lawyers I know through work told me that if they were to do it again, they wouldn't work during their academic year and would pay more in rent to be closer to school and avoid any commute.

If there is a bank in Canada that offers me student loan with a limit of 200k, I would take it and probably use most if not all of it. I would spend a little more than the money - conscious law student when it comes to things like housing, food, and some comforts that are not really necessary, but is still nice to have around like a gym membership or a little more heat in the wintertimes. If that means that I'll have to spend 3- 5 more years than usual to pay off my student loans, so be it.

Like you, I have considered how to save as much money as possible in law school in order to decrease my overall debt. Now, I consider the extra debt in order to live less frugally to be worth it considering the fact that I would be in a much better position to be able to pay off the debt once I graduate than if I never started law school at all. In other words, I see the extra spending as an additional fee in order to not feel miserable and inconvenient during law school that would land me a much better financial position. Fuck annoying roommates and eating bowl noodles for dinner.

 

 

[Renerik]

I started this thread with a good grasp of the question in the title, but wanted to start a conversation for the incoming admits and future applicants who might not have considered the implications that come with the large borrowing power awarded to law students.

@BlockedQuebecois as well as @CleanHands (despite being an ass, though I was fishing using broad questions) are right in that appropriate levels of debt are dependent on the goals of a law student and can vary wildly. I might not want to shoulder more than 50K in debt but that's my choice. Something I've heard a lot from fellow applicants is their lack of hesitancy to indebt themselves heavily like @Thrive92 suggests. While this might be an acceptable strategy if you intend on going into a high-paying career in big law, 200k of debt would take years to pay off as an immigration attorney. The amount of applicants who have privately told me they expect to make six figures in criminal defense straight out of articling is worrisome. Maybe it's because like @LMP I'm a bit older, but my expectations for future earnings are less romanticized than what I've seen among my peers.

@Apple is correct, making a budget is critical. A while back I sat down with my financial planner and worked out what my overall expenses would be if I wanted to go to a few different schools. We laid out costs (tuition, supplemental fees, books, rent, utilities, food, transportation fees, misc) against savings and potential income from summer employment - Scholarships and 1/2L recruit money aren't guaranteed and law students shouldn't base their budgets expecting to get either or both. Costs accumulate quickly and applicants/admits should at the very least go into law school having a rough sketch of how much they will be spending and what they can expect to receive given their choice in career.
 

Edited August 21, 2021 by Renerik
Edit: I will add that @Thrive92 is correct in that for many, earning power will increase after law school so some debt is definitely acceptable

[Thrive92]

7 minutes ago, Renerik said:

While this might be an acceptable strategy if you intend on going into a high-paying career in big law, 200k of debt would take years to pay off as an immigration attorney.

I think it is still a decent option even if you plan on going non - corporate or non - big law. I definitely dont intend to go into any of those fields that pay alot, but I decided to just screw it and trade short - term comfort in exchange for paying off my student loans several years later than those who intend to be frugal with their money.

Some may disagree, but $5000 plus per year for three years in exchange for faster internet plan, real and nutritious food, a studio/apartment all to myself and closer to campus, a car with gas and insurance, and more heating during the winters is worth getting into more debt for me.

Edited August 21, 2021 by Thrive92
correction

[Apple]

11 minutes ago, Renerik said:

A while back I sat down with my financial planner and worked out what my overall expenses would be if I wanted to go to a few different schools. We laid out costs (tuition, supplemental fees, books, rent, utilities, food, transportation fees, misc) against savings and potential income from summer employment - Scholarships and 1/2L recruit money aren't guaranteed and law students shouldn't base their budgets expecting to get either or both. Costs accumulate quickly and applicants/admits should at the very least go into law school having a rough sketch of how much they will be spending and what they can expect to receive given their choice in career.
 

This is a super wise thing to do. Budgeting like this takes time but makes life a lot less stressful as you can see what you can and cannot do. It then allows you to make other decisions with greater clarity, like what school you will go to. 

For those contemplating which school to go to I'll say two things:

• Don't buy into the hype of prestige. It's worthless and relatively meaningless. You cannot go wrong by attending any institution in Canada. All of them produce good lawyers and all of them will provide you with a good education. Since prestige is out of the considerations, consider where you spend your money. For some attending Osgoode, Dal, Windsor, Ryerson or UBC might be worth the price because of where they live/clinics/their dreams etc. But, don't allow prestige to influence you decision as it relates to finances.
• Consider the way your debt might impact your future career prospects/life. If you're gonna have to be working loads to pay down debt you likely won't have much time for other enjoyable parts of life. Debt can also impact what areas of law you can practice in. For instance, there may be a perfect job working for some local immigration firm (and you love immigration law, in fact its your life's passion), but because of debt you cannot afford to work there. 

Going into debt isn't bad. In fact, it can be a fiscally smart thing to do and can be a good thing to do for your health. But managing debt is important and you must determine your risk tolerance before going into debt. 

Edited August 21, 2021 by Apple

[CleanHands]

4 minutes ago, Thrive92 said:

I think it is still a decent option even if you plan on going non - corporate or non - big law. I definitely dont intend to go into any of those fields that pay alot, but I decided to just screw it and trade short - term comfort in exchange for paying off my student loans several years later than those who intend to be frugal with their money.

Some may disagree, but $5000 plus per year for three years in exchange for faster internet plan, real and nutritious food, a studio/apartment all to myself and closer to campus, a car with gas and insurance, and more heating during the winters is worth getting into more debt for me.

Life's too fucking short to live with assholes and eat ramen for 7 years of it if one has the luxury of avoiding it. Especially when those are prime years for most people attending post-secondary education.

Had a psycho roommate in undergrad and decided I was never rolling the dice with housemates again unless I were to become legitimately destitute. The quality of life difference is hard to overstate and it's distinctly possible (as occurred in my case) that one won't even save money if their roommates skip rent or cause damages.

Lived on my own, ate as I pleased, and enjoyed a vacation abroad during law school. I don't in the slightest regret the increased debt load (granted I got nowhere near $200k) even though I went into criminal law and am making half of what my BigLaw peers are. In the long run law school will still be a good investment and I'd rather have had a good quality of life both during and after law school than a terrible quality of life during school and a slightly better than good quality of life after graduating.

[BlockedQuebecois]

23 minutes ago, Apple said:

Don't buy into the hype of prestige. It's worthless and relatively meaningless. You cannot go wrong by attending any institution in Canada. All of them produce good lawyers and all of them will provide you with a good education. Since prestige is out of the considerations, consider where you spend your money. For some attending Osgoode, Dal, Windsor, Ryerson or UBC might be worth the price because of where they live/clinics/their dreams etc. But, don't allow prestige to influence you decision as it relates to finances.

Frankly, I think this is nonsense and terrible advice for incoming students. In the context of law schools, "prestige" is really a shorthand for "what are you opportunities coming out of school." And the opportunities you have coming out of school are heavily influenced by what school you go to. Some law schools will essentially slam the door shut on  career options out of the gate, before you've even written your first law school exam. 

As an example, if you got into Queens ($19,487.57 yearly tuition) and Lakehead ($18,039.22), it would be penny-wise but pound-foolish to attend Lakehead, all else being equal.

Prestige exists, and it matters. The trick is finding a school that keeps open the doors you want left open with a lower tuition cost. For example, all else being equal I would take Queens over Western ($21,765 yearly tuition), because the opportunities coming out those two schools are more or less identical while you'd save about six grand over the course of your studies on tuition.

The rest of your post is fine, but the idea that prestige is "worthless" in the Canadian market is just wrong. 

[CleanHands]

1 minute ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

Frankly, I think this is nonsense and terrible advice for incoming students. In the context of law schools, "prestige" is really a shorthand for "what are you opportunities coming out of school." And the opportunities you have coming out of school are heavily influenced by what school you go to. Some law schools will essentially slam the door shut on  career options out of the gate, before you've even written your first law school exam. 

As an example, if you got into Queens ($19,487.57 yearly tuition) and Lakehead ($18,039.22), it would be penny-wise but pound-foolish to attend Lakehead, all else being equal.

Prestige exists, and it matters. The trick is finding a school that keeps open the doors you want left open with a lower tuition cost. For example, all else being equal I would take Queens over Western ($21,765 yearly tuition), because the opportunities coming out those two schools are more or less identical while you'd save about six grand over the course of your studies on tuition.

The rest of your post is fine, but the idea that prestige is "worthless" in the Canadian market is just wrong. 

Thanks for flagging this, I skimmed over and missed it.

Yes, graduate outcomes do vary significantly among Canadian law schools.

33 minutes ago, Apple said:

For some attending Osgoode, Dal, Windsor, Ryerson or UBC might be worth the price because of where they live/clinics/their dreams etc. But, don't allow prestige to influence you decision as it relates to finances.

Another reason this post is nonsense is that UBC has some of the lowest tuition rates of any law school in Canada.

Also I have no idea why one would regard Windsor or Ryerson as particularly "prestigious" law schools so I don't understand why they are mentioned in the context of that paragraph.

[Avatar Aang]

Yea, I know of people that graduated literally first in the class at Windsor and Lakehead with worst career prospects than average students at the top schools. Search up "Lakehead law First Class Standing" and "Windsor law Board of Governor Medals" on LinkedIn and have a scroll though where these top grads are working now. Western is also a very overrated school. Search up "Western law Law Society of Upper Canada Prize" (which is given to the top 15 students upon graduation). 

[MapleLeafs]

33 minutes ago, Avatar Aang said:

Yea, I know of people that graduated literally first in the class at Windsor and Lakehead with worst career prospects than average students at the top schools. Search up "Lakehead law First Class Standing" and "Windsor law Board of Governor Medals" on LinkedIn and have a scroll though where these top grads are working now. Western is also a very overrated school. Search up "Western law Law Society of Upper Canada Prize" (which is given to the top 15 students upon graduation). 

I think what BQ is trying to say is that all else being equal, someone in the top 25% at Queens is going to have an easier time landing a Big Law job compared to someone in the top 25% at Lakehead. Obviously a Gold Medalist at any Canadian law school is going to do well. 

Edited August 21, 2021 by MapleLeafs

[Pendragon]

3 hours ago, MapleLeafs said:

I think what BQ is trying to say is that all else being equal, someone in the top 25% at Queens is going to have an easier time landing a Big Law job compared to someone in the top 25% at Lakehead. Obviously a Gold Medalist at any Canadian law school is going to do well. 

Your career as a gold medalist from U of T and Lakehead are going to look very different. I know a gold medalist from Lakehead who is working at a small firm in Kitchener now and did not do any clerkships. I know someone that graduated in the top 5% at Windsor who is working at an average personal injury firm. Let's not even get started with the Windsor/Detroit Mercy program, even if you graduate top of your class there.

My school has a very high Biglaw placement rate, and many of my peers that did not land Biglaw jobs in law school just worked at mid-sized firms and lateralled into Biglaw within their first five years of practice. I don't think @BlockedQuebecois was only referring to Biglaw when they talked about law school prestige, as there are many career opportunities that are also prestigious and not as easily accessible for everyone - think clerkships, government, public sector, and high-end boutiques. Biglaw hiring is primarily grades-based so you can technically go to any law school and land these jobs. However, public sector and boutique firms look at more than grades alone, and so some law schools will offer better experiential education and clinical programs; and it just so happens that these schools also tend to be the "prestigious schools."

[Apple]

9 hours ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

Frankly, I think this is nonsense and terrible advice for incoming students. In the context of law schools, "prestige" is really a shorthand for "what are you opportunities coming out of school." And the opportunities you have coming out of school are heavily influenced by what school you go to. Some law schools will essentially slam the door shut on  career options out of the gate, before you've even written your first law school exam. 

As an example, if you got into Queens ($19,487.57 yearly tuition) and Lakehead ($18,039.22), it would be penny-wise but pound-foolish to attend Lakehead, all else being equal.

Prestige exists, and it matters. The trick is finding a school that keeps open the doors you want left open with a lower tuition cost. For example, all else being equal I would take Queens over Western ($21,765 yearly tuition), because the opportunities coming out those two schools are more or less identical while you'd save about six grand over the course of your studies on tuition.

The rest of your post is fine, but the idea that prestige is "worthless" in the Canadian market is just wrong. 

My point on prestige was to get more directly at the social image or status acquired by it. That is, in my view, pointless as an analytical tool. Job prospects on the other hand is a meaningful consideration. The underlining analysis should be “what school will provide me the opportunity I am searching for”. This question rather than “what school is most prestigious” is likely to assist students in saving money, as you demonstrate in your post. 

Edited August 21, 2021 by Apple

[Apple]

9 hours ago, CleanHands said:

Another reason this post is nonsense is that UBC has some of the lowest tuition rates of any law school in Canada.

Also I have no idea why one would regard Windsor or Ryerson as particularly "prestigious" law schools so I don't understand why they are mentioned in the context of that paragraph.

It’s included not as a set of schools to be identified as prestigious institutions (we know plenty of people who would type dissertations to defend the prestige of institutions on this forum), but to show that there are other variables for students to consider when attending any school (I.e where they live/clinics/dreams) that are applicable to all schools. I attended Osgoode and am well aware of the different perceptions some have of different schools. 
 

Certainly if a student wants to land a job in Big Law attending Windsor isn’t going to get them very far. But again the underlining question that a student should ask themselves when selecting a school to go to is not, “is X school more prestigious” it is “what type of job do I want and what school offers the best value proposition to obtain that”. Answering this question can save a student money. Heck, I saved nearly 10k by going through this analysis when I decided to not even bother applying to U of T because Osgoode was cheaper and would give me the same outcomes. Given this posting is about budgeting and debts I am simply encouraging people to analyze the value proposition of any given institution rather than simply going to the most prestigious institution because they can. 

Edited August 21, 2021 by Apple

[Avatar Aang]

5 hours ago, Apple said:

It’s included not as a set of schools to be identified as prestigious institutions (we know plenty of people who would type dissertations to defend the prestige of institutions on this forum), but to show that there are other variables for students to consider when attending any school (I.e where they live/clinics/dreams) that are applicable to all schools. I attended Osgoode and am well aware of the different perceptions some have of different schools. 
 

Certainly if a student wants to land a job in Big Law attending Windsor isn’t going to get them very far. But again the underlining question that a student should ask themselves when selecting a school to go to is not, “is X school more prestigious” it is “what type of job do I want and what school offers the best value proposition to obtain that”. Answering this question can save a student money. Heck, I saved nearly 10k by going through this analysis when I decided to not even bother applying to U of T because Osgoode was cheaper and would give me the same outcomes. Given this posting is about budgeting and debts I am simply encouraging people to analyze the value proposition of any given institution rather than simply going to the most prestigious institution because they can. 

You're not wrong, but the main issue is that most incoming law students have no clue what they want to practice in, and most people also change their minds as they go through law school - and even as they start out in their legal career. Attending the most "prestigious" school you can get into will leave the most doors open, so I think it is fair for students to consider this if they are still unsure about the field they want to pursue. 

[Apple]

49 minutes ago, Avatar Aang said:

You're not wrong, but the main issue is that most incoming law students have no clue what they want to practice in, and most people also change their minds as they go through law school - and even as they start out in their legal career. Attending the most "prestigious" school you can get into will leave the most doors open, so I think it is fair for students to consider this if they are still unsure about the field they want to pursue. 

That's a fair point! 

[123]

16 hours ago, Renerik said:

While this might be an acceptable strategy if you intend on going into a high-paying career in big law, 200k of debt would take years to pay off as an immigration attorney.

At $200,000 in debt, time to repay wouldn’t be my biggest concern in a lower earning field. It would be defaulting on my loans. That’s definitely not out of the question, especially for anyone unemployed or not making much for a while. That could end up in insolvency (if you’re lucky enough to have that be LOC, rather than government loans) or having orders against you resulting in garnishes on pay and restrictions on practice. 

[GGrievous]

17 minutes ago, realpseudonym said:

At $200,000 in debt, time to repay wouldn’t be my biggest concern in a lower earning field. It would be defaulting on my loans. That’s definitely not out of the question, especially for anyone unemployed or not making much for a while. That could end up in insolvency (if you’re lucky enough to have that be LOC, rather than government loans) or having orders against you resulting in garnishes on pay and restrictions on practice. 

That’s depressing man! It’s Saturday!

I would be in favour of more incentives for lawyers that practice in lower earning fields, and in underserved communities. Like they do with doctors and nurses. 

[Mal]

Starting around $100k you are really risking a bad situation. Anything above $150k and you have to have the stars align to make it worth it.

[TobyFlenderson]

12 minutes ago, Mal said:

Starting around $100k you are really risking a bad situation. Anything above $150k and you have to have the stars align to make it worth it.

Speaking from firsthand experience and those of my close law school friends, it’s difficult for many to avoid the six figure debt range.

~7K/year x4 for undergrad tuition = 28K

20K/year x3 for law school tuition = 60K year

That’s nearly 90K before looking at:

- books (500-1000/year x 7 years = 3500-7000)

- rent (500 month x 7 years = 42,000 — cheaper if you live at home, but if you do rent, 500/month is hard to find)

Other expenses like clothes, gas, parking passes, groceries, some sort of entertainment fund to keep you sane.

Working during the summers/school year helps, certainly, but I think many law students should expect to graduate near $100K debt.

That said, I’m not suggesting it’s good. In fact, I think it’s bad. But it is the reality for many, if not most, law students (at least in my experience, which admittedly is limited largely to Western and exclusively to Ontario).