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NY Pre-OCI


aventuravisainfinite

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aventuravisainfinite
  • Law Student

For anyone that's thinking of working in big law in New York, what's pre-oci been like for you? I've started applying about 2 weeks ago to about 50ish firms and I've only gotten rejections so far. I'm at UoT and I thought my 1L grades would be good enough to at least get some interviews (7Hs).

I would also appreciate past years chiming in. TIA

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O Criminal Informant

Not applying to NY firms but I did consider it so I read up on it. 
 

The conventional wisdom seems to be that you need to be an A student (or top 10%) to be competitive coming from Canada. With straight H's you aren't at that level. 
 

Hopefully you get some interest soon but it's not surprising (with my limited knowledge/experience) that you're not getting interviews. 

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helloall

^lol this is UofT - you don't need to be in the top 10%.

7 Hs is sufficient, but it's not a guarantee. It's also relatively early in the game for interviews, so don't fret. But keep in mind the market conditions suggest firms might be inclined to reduce their summer class size.

Edited by helloall
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GoatDuck
  • Law Student

I think you need either distinction or being in the JD/MBA program to be competitive. This being said, you might get some interviews, but it won’t be a shocker if you don’t. 

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O Criminal Informant
37 minutes ago, helloall said:

7 Hs is sufficient

I'll cop to having limited knowledge on grade breakdowns at UofT and how averages would translate to rough class rank. However, all Hs (they're B/B+'s no need to bullshit and pretend its an A) means OP is an above average but not top student based on my quick statistics. 

I simply don't believe that is "sufficient" to generate a notable degree of interest in a hyper-competitive recruit as an out-of-country student. I could be wrong (and for OP's sake I hope I am) but I don't think blowing smoke up OP's ass because "it's UofT" is a good idea.

Edited by O Criminal Informant
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helloall
32 minutes ago, GoatDuck said:

I think you need either distinction or being in the JD/MBA program to be competitive. This being said, you might get some interviews, but it won’t be a shocker if you don’t. 

Key word is "competitive." You absolutely do not need distinction standing and it's seriously unfortunate that this idea keeps persisting among 1Ls, given that so many people self-select out of the NY recruit.

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Turtles
  • Law Student
21 minutes ago, O Criminal Informant said:

I'll cop to having limited knowledge on grade breakdowns at UofT and how averages would translate to rough class rank. However, all Hs (they're B/B+'s no need to bullshit and pretend its an A) means OP is an above average but not top student based on my quick statistics. 

I simply don't believe that is "sufficient" to generate a notable degree of interest in a hyper-competitive recruit as an out-of-country student. I could be wrong (and for OP's sake I hope I am) but I don't think blowing smoke up OP's ass because "it's UofT" is a good idea.

You are wrong. 

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O Criminal Informant
5 minutes ago, Turtles said:

You are wrong. 

Care to elaborate?

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Turtles
  • Law Student
12 minutes ago, O Criminal Informant said:

Care to elaborate?

That is "sufficient" to generate a notable degree of interest in a hyper-competitive recruit as an out-of-country student.

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CB2021
  • Law Student
4 hours ago, O Criminal Informant said:

Not applying to NY firms but I did consider it so I read up on it. 
 

The conventional wisdom seems to be that you need to be an A student (or top 10%) to be competitive coming from Canada. With straight H's you aren't at that level. 
 

Hopefully you get some interest soon but it's not surprising (with my limited knowledge/experience) that you're not getting interviews. 

This is false - it's not even close. 7 H's would generally be competitive to at least secure interviews even if not necessarily sufficient to guarantee an offer from a NY firm. 

1 hour ago, GoatDuck said:

I think you need either distinction or being in the JD/MBA program to be competitive. This being said, you might get some interviews, but it won’t be a shocker if you don’t. 

Not true.

OP - you might want to take a second look at the other aspects of your application. Given how early these firms interview candidates and how keen some of the US students are about landing pre-OCI offers, coming from Canada/UofT might require a bit more networking this year. 

There were students from a US school today either doing firm visits or callbacks at my office. Things are moving even quicker this summer.

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CB2021
  • Law Student

@GoatDuck and @O Criminal Informant have no clue what they are talking about. 

But I do want to note that a certain V10 firm, which has historically been very strict on grades, is showing a preference for UofT JD/MBAs. So it is somewhat true that JD/MBAs have an advantage in securing early interviews with some US firms. Abs not necessary to have distinction or be JD/MBA to secure interviews tho: based on my personal knowledge of the current recruiting season and my own recruiting experience. 

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StoneMason
  • Law Student
On 6/10/2024 at 9:44 PM, helloall said:

Key word is "competitive." You absolutely do not need distinction standing and it's seriously unfortunate that this idea keeps persisting among 1Ls, given that so many people self-select out of the NY recruit.

I can confirm this. I did not make distinction and have received several callbacks this cycle. 

Asides from my anecdotal experience, statistically, UofT sends approximately ~20% of its class to NY each year whereas only the top 10% make distinction. Also, many students who do make distinction do not pursue NY so the proportion of distinction-level students in the ~20% is likely lower than half. It is obvious to anyone who cares to think through the facts that the distinction-only mindset is nonsense.

Edited by StoneMason
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BlockedQuebecois
  • Lawyer
20 minutes ago, StoneMason said:

Also asides from my anecdotal experience, statistically, UofT sends approximately ~20% of its class to NY each year whereas only the top 10% make distinction. So clearly the distinction-only mindset is invalid.

That was almost true for classes going through the recruit during the massive pandemic hiring boom, but isn't true historically and is unlikely to continue to be true now that the market has cooled significantly. 

https://www.law.utoronto.ca/student-life/career-development-office/career-statistics

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StoneMason
  • Law Student
5 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

unlikely to continue to be true now that the market has cooled significantly. 

I guess we will have to wait and see how this cycle goes. As someone going through the cycle right now I know several non-distinction-level students who have been receiving interviews and offers from NY. 

Edited by StoneMason
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BlockedQuebecois
  • Lawyer
5 minutes ago, StoneMason said:

I guess we will have to wait and see how this cycle goes. As someone going through the cycle right now I know many non-distinction-level students who have been receiving interviews and offers from NY. 

Sorry, I could have been clearer. I don't think you need to be in the top 10% of your class at U of T to get a NY job. 

What I disagree with is the suggestion that "statistically, UofT sends approximately ~20% of its class to NY each year". It doesn't, and it never has. For a brief period during which New York firms were poaching literally any warm body from Canada, U of T got somewhat close to sending 20% of their students to NYC. But historically the average is in and around 10% (which would still give most folks in the top 20% of the class a decent shot).

Anyways, good luck with interviews 🙂

Edited by BlockedQuebecois
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StoneMason
  • Law Student
1 minute ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

To be clear, I don't think you need to be in the top 10% of your class at U of T to get a NY job. 

What I disagree with is the suggestion that "statistically, UofT sends approximately ~20% of its class to NY each year". It doesn't, and it never has. For a brief period during which New York firms were poaching literally any warm body from Canada, U of T got somewhat close to sending 20% of their students to NYC. But historically the average is in and around 10% (which would still give most folks in the top 20% of the class a decent shot).

Anyways, good luck with interviews 🙂

I did not have the exact number top of mind when I commented, but even in the link you shared it is at 18% for the class of 2023 which is close to 20% (hence the "~"). Based on UV's reporting, the numbers appear to be between the 15% to 20% range for the classes of 2024 and 2025 as well, considering UV always underreports since not all students fill in the survey (I personally know at least 5 students who did not report in the 2024 summer survey but are in New York right now). Anyways, my point was not to get into a technical statistical argument over the numbers. I think in either case, we agree with my overall point that even the numbers over the last several years indicate that the distinction-only mindset is not true.

If you want to hinge your argument on the assumption that the numbers will revert back to pre-covid levels, we will simply have to wait and see! 

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2 hours ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

Give most folks in the top 20% of the class a decent shot.

Agreed, but also in hot market conditions that number could reach the top third of the class. Also, if you're an average student with certain credentials (e.g., Ivy league background, JD/MBA, former IB/consulting experience) - you could get away with being an average student.

I just wanted to tack this onto your comment because I know that a frustrating number of students still self-select out because they're not in the top ~10-15% of the class. For neurotic students reading this: just apply. Worst case scenario, you don't get a job but you'll be more prepared for the Toronto recruit.

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CB2021
  • Law Student
46 minutes ago, helloall said:

Agreed, but also in hot market conditions that number could reach the top third of the class. Also, if you're an average student with certain credentials (e.g., Ivy league background, JD/MBA, former IB/consulting experience) - you could get away with being an average student.

I just wanted to tack this onto your comment because I know that a frustrating number of students still self-select out because they're not in the top ~10-15% of the class. For neurotic students reading this: just apply. Worst case scenario, you don't get a job but you'll be more prepared for the Toronto recruit.

Good news - even not in hot market conditions, the above still holds true. The market isn't bad right now, but it certainly isn't hot. UofT seems to continue to be strong in NYC recruiting efforts. 

For the sake of future UofT students: 

Generally, if you are an average student (or even below average*), you will need to satisfy both of the below categories; i.e., you will need to have at least one element from each of the two sets below

  • Connections: by networking with alums, Canadians, etc. (or even better if you have personal or family connections);
  • Appealing factors: JD/MBA, good undergrad background (degree from a prestigious US/UK school and/or hard science major with perfect grades), former professional experience, award-winning athlete/author/actor (you get the gist), SOME OTHER UNIQUE OR SPECIAL FACTORS ABOUT YOUR APPLICATION.

*anecdotally, I know a handful of students who had way below average grades but met the above landed in NY. 

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CB2021
  • Law Student
4 hours ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

That was almost true for classes going through the recruit during the massive pandemic hiring boom, but isn't true historically and is unlikely to continue to be true now that the market has cooled significantly

https://www.law.utoronto.ca/student-life/career-development-office/career-statistics

Trends seem to be pointing to the opposite direction despite a not so hot market (lateral market is pretty much dead but summer hiring seems to be largely unaffected, especially at the top firms). Barring a black swan event in the US or global economy, I think the hiring of summer associates from UofT/McGill by top US firms will continue to be strong. Here is why - thanks to the extremely talented and hardworking UofT/McGill alums that came before us, UofT/McGill students, and Canadians generally, have established a solid reputation among the top firms in NY. Some of the more senior folks have lateraled to other peer firms and their respective firms have noticed the previous untapped talent pools as well. This partly explains why firms that have historically rarely interviewed/extended offers to/hired from students from UofT/McGill for their summer associate positions, even during the pandemic boom, are interviewing and giving out offers to UofT/McGill students currently. Unless our students suddenly all become incompetent or lazy, I think the trend will continue: more and more firms will be willing to take a chance on a student from UofT/McGill.

A top US firm's incoming co-chair is a UofT alum. More likely than not the firm will slowly take in more and more UofT/McGill students. 

To above average students from UofT/McGill: polish your app and try to build genuine relationships with alums. You might have a pretty good chance landing in NY.

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BlockedQuebecois
  • Lawyer

@helloall not to be a jerk, but please don’t crop and edit my comments so as to make it look like I’m saying something I’m not.

The words “give most folks in the top 20% of the class a decent shot” were part of a sentence discussing an environment in which ~10% of the class is going to New York (i.e., not a hot market), not a standalone sentence as your quote suggests.

I don’t think we disagree about anything, but I don’t appreciate being misquoted. 

Edited by BlockedQuebecois
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