Windsor Single vs Dual JD

[101]

Hello!

I have been accepted to Windsor's single and dual JD programs. I am unsure which one I should choose. 

I am interested in the Dual program because having a student visa and being able to have a summer job in the US is very interesting to me. 

I have read many negative things about the Dual program related to course load, rushed courses, UDM's low ranking in the US, the price etc. 

I feel that I may be leaning towards the single JD program after reading all of the negative things about the Dual and I am wondering if having a student visa and an American degree (despite UDM's low rank) would make it worth it in the end?

 

Edited June 25, 2024 by 101

[scooter]

My understanding is that the extra cost for the dual is in the ballpark of $100,000. Someone please correct me if I’m wrong. 
 

I don’t see how anything you’ve mentioned in your post is worth $100,000. The single is the obvious choice. 

[GoatDuck]

It is a no-brainer, pick the single JD. If the dual program makes sense at all given that you are also admitted into the single program, it's only because you have a kink for practicing specifically in Detroit. If you don't have this kink, there is no reason to pick the dual program in your situation. 

[loonie]

On top of the increased cost of the Dual JD program, there will be a presumption that you are only attending because you had no other Canadian prospects. I understand that having an American degree as well may sound attractive to you -- but, remember, in the American context, you are attending a bottom-tier law school so your prospects will be severely limited. Moreover, the Dual JD program will also further limit your Canadian prospects as the Dual places significantly worse than the Single JD in the formal recruits.

In your circumstance, I would definitely pick the Single JD.

[erin otoole]

As the resident Dual JD apologist just go to the single. The uniform bar exam is much more approachable to Canadian grads given the recent increased difficulty on the Ontario licensing exams. If US law is an interest to you are aren't shut out besides a few states. 

Prior to covid there was some sneaky ways for single JD students to take classes at Detroit Mercy. You can ask around if those have started up again to wet your beak. Make some Dual JD friends though as the Detroit Mercy events are way more fun and boozy compared to Windsor. 

Good luck, congrats on the multiple acceptances! 

[chaboywb]

13 hours ago, 101 said:

I am interested in the Dual program because having a student visa and being able to have a summer job in the US is very interesting to me. 

If you are interested in big law and in case there was any question in your mind, it should be made clear that you will not get a U.S. big law job from the Windsor dual JD. You'd have a shot at Canadian big law but less so than the single JD.

[Naj]

23 hours ago, 101 said:

summer job

• You're unlikely to have a summer 'job'. Post 1-L summer involves mandatory US law courses while simultaneously undertaking unpaid US externships/clinics. For post 2-L summer/U.S OCI's, my understanding is that US firms will prioritize UDM/US students as they're cautious about hiring Canadians who may very well end up deciding to work in Canada (flight risk). 
• If you choose not to partake in the Post 1-L summer US externships/clinics, well, you're still bound to Windsor because you'll have to attend summer courses. Your ability to find Canadian experience at this time will be limited to Windsor, and will likely have to come about through informal means (e.g cold calling); the formal channels that do exist at this time work to suffice US clinic/extracurricular-based credits that are required for the US JD. If you subvert from the norm and pursue Canadian experience during post-1L summer, you will still need to suffice US extracurricular/clinic credit requirements at a later point in time (not sure about the implications here). 
• There's the possibility that you will be relatively disadvantaged for Canadian OCIs since your Canadian single counterparts have a summer's worth of work experience over you. (presuming Canadian OCI employers discriminate between 1L summer US/CA work experience-genuine question) 
• You are paying double tuition. 
• Course load is higher (at least for 1L) - but in my opinion, not really an issue. Unless you start getting involved in Fall/Winter term clinics, then it can get pretty annoying. Still, all is easily manageable IMO. 

I will note that UDM profs have been consistently impressive. 

Anecdotally, a substantial portion of Duals are ambiguous about their reasons for undertaking and continuing with the program (apart from the last resort factor). They tend to be bad reasons, in that they are seemingly borne by uninformed presumptions of the program's ability to launch you into the US legal workforce (and I mean beyond just Michigan) and continue to ignore some of the above practical realities I noted.

23 hours ago, 101 said:

because having a student visa and being able to have a summer job in the US is very interesting to me

The above is the sort of reasoning I'm talking about. 

Maybe @erin otoole can verify or correct some of the above, but AFAIK best to stick to the single program unless you know what you're doing, it's just an easier time overall. 

Being in the Dual JD doesn't immediately preclude you from opportunities that would lend to someone being a competitive Canadian applicant, just note, that many of your would-be dual peers and yourself will end up juggling time and effort between borders, which arguably serves to effectively reduce your chances on each side. This is the inevitability, you are required to do this to graduate with a US JD in addition to your CA JD. It's just too much to ask, with not much to show for it. 

Just as a final address to the stigma of the program. Notwithstanding the legitimacy of its last-resort reputation, I think much of the weight of this stigma is substantially, but perhaps not entirely, open to be defeated by your performance in law school. It seems that placement concerns have at least something to do with the 'logistics' of the program, including some of those I've mentioned above. Well-performing students will likely find success regardless of where they go, generally speaking. 

Edited June 26, 2024 by Naj

[erin otoole]

17 hours ago, Naj said:

Maybe @erin otoole can verify or correct some of the above, but AFAIK best to stick to the single program unless you know what you're doing, it's just an easier time overall. 

The single is an "easier" program insofar that you take fewer classes. Less noise too it gets confusing trying to remember Detroit OCI vs Toronto OCI, whether you should apply this legal test or not and getting multiple parking passes.  The weird part no one talks publicly about the Dual is the PIA it is to receive twice the number of useless notice emails from the main campus.   

Regardless I liked the Dual and Detroit Mercy. The profs at UDM are leagues above Windsor and are much more approachable and friendly. 

[Whisk3yjack]

On 6/25/2024 at 9:08 PM, Naj said:

• There's the possibility that you will be relatively disadvantaged for Canadian OCIs since your Canadian single counterparts have a summer's worth of work experience over you. (presuming Canadian OCI employers discriminate between 1L summer US/CA work experience-genuine question) 

There's not a lot of Single JD Windsor students that are getting meaningful 1L summer work experience. If I recall correctly, I believe there was one (1) student who got a job in the 1L recruit. Obviously other students find legal jobs in the summer, but I am not convinced that firms in the OCI recruit view someone's experience working one summer at a very small law firm as any more valuable or indicative of future competency than serving or working landscaping

On 6/26/2024 at 3:00 PM, erin otoole said:

The single is an "easier" program insofar that you take fewer classes

I agree with this. There's no doubt, the single is an "easier" program. Less courses per semester and the courses themselves are less demanding. Though one might find the curve more likely to work in their favour in the Dual.