Admissons questions and concerns

[samantha12]

Hey everyone, I'm just looking for any advice and feedback as I don't know anyone in law and am lost on the requirements needed/most appealing to law school and what I should do that is strong to have. I'm in my third year of my undergrad at Yorku, planning on taking the LSAT soon but my biggest worry is not getting in. My dream school is Osgoode, also Uofft but it seems very unrealistic now so I'm mainly sticking to Osgoode, but I fear that since they are very competitive I won't make it. My grades are all Bs with a few As, probably around a 3.0, I'm involved in clubs at my school, as well as president/founder of one, I have a nonprofit organization, and I volunteer in my community, and compete in moot competitions. I don't have much law-related work experience but have worked in offices as a receptionist, accounts payable, and admin and those types of general jobs. Does extracurriculars matter that much? Does having strong volunteer work help? Do I have a good chance if I can get my grades up and get a good LSAT score to be accepted to these? I hope to work in Biglaw and stay in Toronto.

(I'd also like to add my first two years, a family member is ill and I am the main caregiver during this time which has affected my performance those 2 years (including my mental health). If I can explain in my personal statement why I had lower grades due to this would that help? Or would it look weak that I’m unable to balance a workload/courses and personal life? I am sure these next 2 years I can do very well and bring up my grades, I’m just concerned about my first two years being at a 2.9, affecting my CGPA. I’m more focused on getting into Osgoode as I’d like to stay in Toronto for family reasons and not have to move away) 

[BHC1]

You still have plenty of time to turn it around. However, a word of caution: loading up on extra-curricular activities like mock trials and volunteer work won't compensate for a low GPA and poor LSAT score. Focus on raising your grades and preparing for the LSAT. A small GPA increase is far more valuable for law school admission than winning moots, law firm “experience”, or volunteering. Do things if you enjoy them, not because you think they'll help you get into law school. Far too many applicants make the mistake of thinking their “softs” will save them. They will not. 

[MyWifesBoyfriend]

A lot is going on here, so I'll try to provide a helpful answer that addresses all of your points. Note that I'm just an admit, so if a seasoned vet with adcoms experience weighs in, you will do better deferring to their opinion.

2 hours ago, samantha12 said:

lost on the requirements needed/most appealing to law school and what I should do that is strong to have

LSAT and GPA are essential. Softs are largely ancillary to these two core metrics. It's very unlikely your GPA will be salvageable for U of T, but you may be able to get within striking distance of Osgoode's median (3.69 cGPA). Nonetheless, you'd still need a strong LSAT score to offset the low cGPA for Osgoode. 

It may be worth exploring schools that take your B2 or L2 GPA (Queens and Western, respectively) since this will mitigate the impact your first two years will have on your application. Failing that, TMU is the only other alternative to Osgoode and U of T if it's Toronto or bust.

2 hours ago, samantha12 said:

(I'd also like to add my first two years, a family member is ill and I am the main caregiver during this time which has affected my performance those 2 years (including my mental health).

I'm not sure if this rises to the level of an access claim, but if you had some form of documentation or paper trail, maybe it could. Regardless, I believe U of T and Osgoode's optional essays provide you with 2,000-2,500 characters to discuss barriers to achievement and how you overcame them. I'd assume this would be the place to convey the hardships you faced in the first two years of your undergraduate (and, most importantly, how you overcame them!). 

Edited July 16, 2024 by MyWifesBoyfriend

[Legalwho]

I think the advice given above is sound - do not try to compensate for your GPA by doing more extracurriculars, devote that energy to increasing your GPA in your final year and preparing for the LSAT. You have good experience already that will likely help you write a great personal statement. I think the key to law school admissions is that they aren't looking for the people with the lost possible experiences, but those who have a deep commitment to one or a few activities that shaped them personally. 

That being said, I think you should consider law schools other than Osgoode. A school like TMU, for example, will have lower admission criteria, and lots of opportunities to work in the Toronto market. I think if you are able to boost your GPA in your final year and get a competitive score on the LSAT, you will be a strong applicant there. The other thing to think about is that there are a handful of law schools in Canada that only look at your best 2 years of Undergrad. Those schools should be on your list as well. The stress you feel about getting in to Osgoode would be alleviated if you put more options on the table. 

A lot of people I talk to who want to be lawyers and have a specific law school in mind let go of their goal when they dont get in to their dream school, and as a result miss out on an entire career. You seem you have an interesting background that will make you a good lawyer. Don't give up! 

[samantha12]

6 hours ago, Legalwho said:

I think the advice given above is sound - do not try to compensate for your GPA by doing more extracurriculars, devote that energy to increasing your GPA in your final year and preparing for the LSAT. You have good experience already that will likely help you write a great personal statement. I think the key to law school admissions is that they aren't looking for the people with the lost possible experiences, but those who have a deep commitment to one or a few activities that shaped them personally. 

That being said, I think you should consider law schools other than Osgoode. A school like TMU, for example, will have lower admission criteria, and lots of opportunities to work in the Toronto market. I think if you are able to boost your GPA in your final year and get a competitive score on the LSAT, you will be a strong applicant there. The other thing to think about is that there are a handful of law schools in Canada that only look at your best 2 years of Undergrad. Those schools should be on your list as well. The stress you feel about getting in to Osgoode would be alleviated if you put more options on the table. 

A lot of people I talk to who want to be lawyers and have a specific law school in mind let go of their goal when they don't get in to their dream school, and as a result miss out on an entire career. You seem you have an interesting background that will make you a good lawyer. Don't give up! 

Thank you! Yes, I agree as well, I plan on applying to Queen's and Western as well, of course with Osgoode being my top choice. I don't plan on applying to tmu for other reasons. My hope for Osgoode is really just to work in Biglaw and stay in Toronto to care for my family, although many comments I received have been very discouraging about not having a chance at all. I've seen stats of people with low gpas get into Osgoode but I know if differs from each applicant and earlier applicants in the queue.

10 hours ago, BHC1 said:

You still have plenty of time to turn it around. However, a word of caution: loading up on extra-curricular activities like mock trials and volunteer work won't compensate for a low GPA and poor LSAT score. Focus on raising your grades and preparing for the LSAT. A small GPA increase is far more valuable for law school admission than winning moots, law firm “experience”, or volunteering. Do things if you enjoy them, not because you think they'll help you get into law school. Far too many applicants make the mistake of thinking their “softs” will save them. They will not. 

Thank you! I really appreciate the advice, most people have told me it's too late and not to bother at all. I'm starting my third year and even retook some classes I did poorly in to get a better grade, I'm just hoping I can do well in my third year and fourth to bring up my GPA to stand out as much as possible.

[samantha12]

10 hours ago, MyWifesBoyfriend said:

A lot is going on here, so I'll try to provide a helpful answer that addresses all of your points. Note that I'm just an admit, so if a seasoned vet with adcoms experience weighs in, you will do better deferring to their opinion.

LSAT and GPA are essential. Softs are largely ancillary to these two core metrics. It's very unlikely your GPA will be salvageable for U of T, but you may be able to get within striking distance of Osgoode's median (3.69 cGPA). Nonetheless, you'd still need a strong LSAT score to offset the low cGPA for Osgoode. 

It may be worth exploring schools that take your B2 or L2 GPA (Queens and Western, respectively) since this will mitigate the impact your first two years will have on your application. Failing that, TMU is the only other alternative to Osgoode and U of T if it's Toronto or bust.

I'm not sure if this rises to the level of an access claim, but if you had some form of documentation or paper trail, maybe it could. Regardless, I believe U of T and Osgoode's optional essays provide you with 2,000-2,500 characters to discuss barriers to achievement and how you overcame them. I'd assume this would be the place to convey the hardships you faced in the first two years of your undergraduate (and, most importantly, how you overcame them!). 

Thank you! I will try looking into another route to support circumstances that would support it. 

[Scrantonicity2]

I echo all the advice from commenters above. That said, I am a bit concerned by your statement that "My hope for Osgoode is really just to work in Biglaw..."  There's been a lot of discussion on the forum lately about whether it is possible to land a big law job with average or below average grades. The consensus seems to be that it is possible to lateral to big law a few years into your career, but vanishingly unlikely to land a big law summer or articling position with anything but above average law school grades. I say all this because it is not very likely that your law school grades will be much better than your undergrad grades (assuming you've been putting in your best effort, which it sounds like you have). Its possible that your grades will improve now that you no longer have caregiving responsibilites, but it sounds like you are quite close to your family and may have other familial obligations come up in the future.

In law school, you will be in a pool of smart people who all excelled in their undergrads, and you will be graded based on how well you perform in relation to those people. A lot of people  go from being top of their class in undergrad to middle or even bottom of the pack in law school. 

I don't say this to discourage you from law school, but to make you aware that you could be setting yourself up for dissapointment if your appraoch is big law or bust. There are many ineresting, and well-remunerated, law jobs outside big law, and there is a good chance that these may be more realistic options for you.

Also, I would advise you to take some steps to improve the clarity of your writing. I get that on a forum you aren't necessarily writing the way you would at a job or for a class, but even based on the limited sample here, I think it will help you a lot on your application and in law school to take a class focused on developping stronger grammar and diction. I seem to recall in my undergrad there was a free paper-review service provided by the university - that might also be something to take advantage of.

[samantha12]

10 hours ago, Scrantonicity2 said:

I echo all the advice from commenters above. That said, I am a bit concerned by your statement that "My hope for Osgoode is really just to work in Biglaw..."  There's been a lot of discussion on the forum lately about whether it is possible to land a big law job with average or below average grades. The consensus seems to be that it is possible to lateral to big law a few years into your career, but vanishingly unlikely to land a big law summer or articling position with anything but above average law school grades. I say all this because it is not very likely that your law school grades will be much better than your undergrad grades (assuming you've been putting in your best effort, which it sounds like you have). Its possible that your grades will improve now that you no longer have caregiving responsibilites, but it sounds like you are quite close to your family and may have other familial obligations come up in the future.

In law school, you will be in a pool of smart people who all excelled in their undergrads, and you will be graded based on how well you perform in relation to those people. A lot of people  go from being top of their class in undergrad to middle or even bottom of the pack in law school. 

I don't say this to discourage you from law school, but to make you aware that you could be setting yourself up for dissapointment if your appraoch is big law or bust. There are many ineresting, and well-remunerated, law jobs outside big law, and there is a good chance that these may be more realistic options for you.

Also, I would advise you to take some steps to improve the clarity of your writing. I get that on a forum you aren't necessarily writing the way you would at a job or for a class, but even based on the limited sample here, I think it will help you a lot on your application and in law school to take a class focused on developping stronger grammar and diction. I seem to recall in my undergrad there was a free paper-review service provided by the university - that might also be something to take advantage of.

First of all, let me clarify. I hope to stay in Toronto as my family is here and I am a caregiver, which is why my 1st choice is Osgoode due to its prestige and convenience that I can continue with my care duties and attend law school, which I am confident I can excel in both. I understand that Ontario and outside have many great law schools which will offer amazing careers, but my hope is to stay here and not have to move away. My goal is to work in Biglaw, which I am very capable of as I work hard. Due to my circumstances, I have been unable to perform as best as I can, which is an accountability I take and have been in the process of retaking courses to get better grades and improve. Life happens and I can't really control it. This post was meant to seek advice from others who may have been in a similar situation for an outlook and inspiration for myself, as many comments I get tell me to give up on being a lawyer and that I'm just setting myself up for disappointment... It was not written in an academic format as this was merely a quick post I created to seek advice. 

[CB2021]

[Mod Edited[

On a serious note - what is wrong with applying to TMU if you want to do biglaw?

[BHC1]

1 hour ago, samantha12 said:

First of all, let me clarify. I hope to stay in Toronto as my family is here and I am a caregiver, which is why my 1st choice is Osgoode due to its prestige and convenience that I can continue with my care duties and attend law school, which I am confident I can excel in both. I understand that Ontario and outside have many great law schools which will offer amazing careers, but my hope is to stay here and not have to move away. My goal is to work in Biglaw, which I am very capable of as I work hard. Due to my circumstances, I have been unable to perform as best as I can, which is an accountability I take and have been in the process of retaking courses to get better grades and improve. Life happens and I can't really control it. This post was meant to seek advice from others who may have been in a similar situation for an outlook and inspiration for myself, as many comments I get tell me to give up on being a lawyer and that I'm just setting myself up for disappointment... It was not written in an academic format as this was merely a quick post I created to seek advice. 

Caregiving and supporting your family is admirable. Attending law school close to home makes sense for you for that purpose alone. You really need to dig deep though if that’s what you want. Aim for a 4.0 this upcoming semester. Good luck. 

[samantha12]

6 hours ago, BHC1 said:

Caregiving and supporting your family is admirable. Attending law school close to home makes sense for you for that purpose alone. You really need to dig deep though if that’s what you want. Aim for a 4.0 this upcoming semester. Good luck. 

Thank you! Trying my best these next 2 years to get all A+, I've seen people with somewhat lower stats get in so it gives me hope

[MyWifesBoyfriend]

10 hours ago, CB2021 said:

[Mod Edited[

 

@samantha12 why big law? Just out of curiosity.

[BlockedQuebecois]

10 hours ago, CB2021 said:

 

[Mod Edited - outside of a note from BQ about TMU doing pretty poorly when it comes to Toronto big law placements]

[SNAILS]

As a general rule, I would always suggest applying to TMU as a "backup school" whenever someone applies to UofT/Oz.

The OP had "other reasons" for not applying to TMU, which is fine. However: (1) "Big law" does hire some students from TMU (2) It's reputation will improve as time goes on I think - it only started accepting students in 2020 I think (3) There is more to law than big law, and an applicant may easily develop an interest outside big law while in law school (4) It's fair to say that TMU is not saturated with the most elite over achievers from undergrad, and thus it is easier to attain a top 25% or top 10% standing at TMU.

Edited July 17, 2024 by SNAILS

[CleanHands]

1 minute ago, SNAILS said:

(2) It's reputation will improve as time goes on I think - it only started accepting students in 2020 I think

Worth pointing out that I think most people expected this to happen but if anything so far the opposite has happened with multiple controversies over conduct of their student body in a few years.

Still early days and nothing that can't be course corrected though.

[ZineZ]

Alright that's enough. We've got the early signs of a tire-fire that's based less on OP's questions than some long standing judges. 

I'm going to remove any of those comments which are NOT substantive.

[chaboywb]

On 7/15/2024 at 7:35 PM, samantha12 said:

Hey everyone, I'm just looking for any advice and feedback as I don't know anyone in law and am lost on the requirements needed/most appealing to law school and what I should do that is strong to have. I'm in my third year of my undergrad at Yorku, planning on taking the LSAT soon but my biggest worry is not getting in. My dream school is Osgoode, also Uofft but it seems very unrealistic now so I'm mainly sticking to Osgoode, but I fear that since they are very competitive I won't make it. My grades are all Bs with a few As, probably around a 3.0, I'm involved in clubs at my school, as well as president/founder of one, I have a nonprofit organization, and I volunteer in my community, and compete in moot competitions. I don't have much law-related work experience but have worked in offices as a receptionist, accounts payable, and admin and those types of general jobs. Does extracurriculars matter that much? Does having strong volunteer work help? Do I have a good chance if I can get my grades up and get a good LSAT score to be accepted to these? I hope to work in Biglaw and stay in Toronto.

(I'd also like to add my first two years, a family member is ill and I am the main caregiver during this time which has affected my performance those 2 years (including my mental health). If I can explain in my personal statement why I had lower grades due to this would that help? Or would it look weak that I’m unable to balance a workload/courses and personal life? I am sure these next 2 years I can do very well and bring up my grades, I’m just concerned about my first two years being at a 2.9, affecting my CGPA. I’m more focused on getting into Osgoode as I’d like to stay in Toronto for family reasons and not have to move away) 

Your post is largely "ifs", so advice is likely meaningless at this stage. If you get a 4.0 in each of your final two years and get a 165+ LSAT, even UofT isn't out of reach. If your grades continue to be more like 3.0s and you struggle with the LSAT, you likely won't get it anywhere. Take the LSAT and come back after your third year and you'll be able to get more useful advice.

Unless they are providing value to your mental health/feeling of self-worth, I would drop all but your one or two favourite ECs. If you are in them just to bolster your application then you are expending energy unnecessarily on something that won't move the needle. Prioritize improving your grades above all else.

Edited July 17, 2024 by chaboywb

[Scrantonicity2]

Just to be clear, my comment was intended to be helpful, not to cut you down. I think the fact that you were a caregiver for a family member is a real credit to you and speaks well of your character. The advice about writing was also intended as helpful. I wouldn't have made that suggestion if I thought your situation was hopeless. You're obviously smart and capable, but there are indications in your writing (even in this informal space) that your written work could use some polish. This is something that will help you with admissions, law school, and recruits while in law school.

I also wasn't suggesting that you have to look outisde Toronto for school (although you may). My bigger point was that you may have to be open to areas outside big law. This isn't a comment on your capacity - I have no idea what your capacity is and no reason to doubt that, as you say, you can work very hard. This is intended to temper your expectations, as a kindness. Big law jobs are really competitive to get in the first place. It may be that you will end up competitive for those roles, but there is a good chance that you won't be. This assessement has nothing to do with what I've learned from your post, its just that, statistically speaking, many people don't end up being comeptitive for these positions.

I also agree with you that "life happens." I don't think that the circumstances that have impacted your grades so far say anything about your innate intelligence or capacity, except for indicating (as I mentioned) good moral character. But life will continue to "happen" in law school. It may be that your experience so far has been uniquely challenging in a way that is unlikely to repeat itself. But there is a good chance that you will continue to face hurdles of various kinds (just as any of us will).

Lastly, in your first post you said "I'm just looking for any advice and feedback." That is why I gave some feedback. In your reply to me, you said "This post was meant to seek advice from others who may have been in a similar situation for an outlook and inspiration for myself, as many comments I get tell me to give up on being a lawyer and that I'm just setting myself up for disappointment..." I got a lot of different advice before starting law school, much of it pure encouragement and some of it cautionary. While the former felt better to hear, the latter was, ultimately, much more useful. I'm not telling you to give up. Not at all! I'm just trying to pay forward some of the helpful advice I myself recevied on this forum and elsewhere when I was an applicant.

[Yogurt Baron]

On 7/15/2024 at 7:35 PM, samantha12 said:

(I'd also like to add my first two years, a family member is ill and I am the main caregiver during this time which has affected my performance those 2 years (including my mental health). If I can explain in my personal statement why I had lower grades due to this would that help? Or would it look weak that I’m unable to balance a workload/courses and personal life?

I'm really rooting for you. I think you've got a good attitude. I think you've got a tough road ahead of you, and your confidence in yourself is rubbing a couple of people here the wrong way, but, you know what? Some people come in here saying, "I haven't done well up until now, but I know I'm a superstar, and just watch, I'll prove it." Most of them are wrong, but some are right. I'm hoping you're right.

In terms of the quoted, I wouldn't say you're at risk of looking weak. I would say it may not help as much as you're hoping. It's probably a slightly-above-average grounds for an access claim, if anything.

[samantha12]

1 hour ago, Yogurt Baron said:

I'm really rooting for you. I think you've got a good attitude. I think you've got a tough road ahead of you, and your confidence in yourself is rubbing a couple of people here the wrong way, but, you know what? Some people come in here saying, "I haven't done well up until now, but I know I'm a superstar, and just watch, I'll prove it." Most of them are wrong, but some are right. I'm hoping you're right.

In terms of the quoted, I wouldn't say you're at risk of looking weak. I would say it may not help as much as you're hoping. It's probably a slightly-above-average grounds for an access claim, if anything.

Thank you!! I really appreciate the kind words and support. I'm just really going through a lot and having so many people not believing in me and telling me to give up is really forcing me to be the only one to believe in myself and have the confidence that I can make it, which is where this attitude comes from lol. 

8 hours ago, chaboywb said:

Your post is largely "ifs", so advice is likely meaningless at this stage. If you get a 4.0 in each of your final two years and get a 165+ LSAT, even UofT isn't out of reach. If your grades continue to be more like 3.0s and you struggle with the LSAT, you likely won't get it anywhere. Take the LSAT and come back after your third year and you'll be able to get more useful advice.

Unless they are providing value to your mental health/feeling of self-worth, I would drop all but your one or two favourite ECs. If you are in them just to bolster your application then you are expending energy unnecessarily on something that won't move the needle. Prioritize improving your grades above all else.

Thank you! Would you say is it helpful to take some extra classes during my 3rd year? I’m thinking if taking some easier courses this year and doing good in them, then that will raise up my cgpa. Since I am applying at the start of my 4th year (November) I will only have my first 3 year grades to show.