Osgoode v UofT - mature student

[ForeignPrune2024]

Hi all, I know ppl get tired of this one, but my question is a bit different.
 

With my stats I should get into both schools. I am a mature student and a parent. My concern is that with kids it is inevitable that there will be some classes I miss, and I won’t be able to live on campus to study as much as I would like to. Given my circumstances, is there any reason I should consider one of these schools over the other?

I can’t leave the GTA due to a family court order and have zero interest in TMU, so these are my only choices. 
 

TIA for any advice you may have for me. Much appreciated.

[MyWifesBoyfriend]

26 minutes ago, ForeignPrune2024 said:

My concern is that with kids it is inevitable that there will be some classes I miss

1L at U of T. Recorded lectures are not sent to students by default. You MAY be able to work something out with the professor, and they do send out their recorded lectures on a case-by-case basis. Without arranging accommodations with a professor though, you’ll need to be at classes in person. 

Edited October 14, 2024 by MyWifesBoyfriend

[thrill]

On the contrary, all of my 1L classes at Oz were recorded. In 2L, one of my profs makes the recordings available to all, and another doesn't. Also, there are a surprising amount of mature students at Oz. A bunch of my friends are, and I feel like they add a much more interesting perspective than the average K-JD.

I think you'll do well at either school. Do you have any idea what you want to do in law?

[StoneMason]

51 minutes ago, MyWifesBoyfriend said:

1L at U of T. Recorded lectures are not sent to students by default. You MAY be able to work something out with the professor, and they do send out their recorded lectures on a case-by-case basis. Without arranging accommodations with a professor though, you’ll need to be at classes in person. 

This, but I would add that you should not bank on getting these accommodations. I have seen some select students receive recording accommodations but it wasn't as simple as for being a parent. The school is infamously bad at sharing recorded lectures beyond the standard death in the family or sick day circumstances. Also, seminar courses (e.g., your 1L small group) are not recorded so there won't be any recordings available for them. 

There are many reasons to pick UofT over Oz but this is not one of them.

Edited October 14, 2024 by StoneMason

[cities1000]

Is the commute shorter for you for one school over another? Are you set on a specific area of law? These are questions you could consider. 

[ForeignPrune2024]

9 hours ago, thrill said:

On the contrary, all of my 1L classes at Oz were recorded. In 2L, one of my profs makes the recordings available to all, and another doesn't. Also, there are a surprising amount of mature students at Oz. A bunch of my friends are, and I feel like they add a much more interesting perspective than the average K-JD.

I think you'll do well at either school. Do you have any idea what you want to do in law?

My background is in family violence research, and I’m currently a family law clerk. I’m fairly set on family law, but going in with an open mind to other areas as well. 

[ForeignPrune2024]

9 hours ago, cities1000 said:

Is the commute shorter for you for one school over another? Are you set on a specific area of law? These are questions you could consider. 

Most likely family law, but open to having my mind changed along the way. 
 

The commute is definitely a point to consider, and there are pros and cons to both schools. For Oz I would have to drive, which could mean a lot of idle time behind the wheel stuck in traffic depending on the timing, but if it’s not rush hour the commute is pretty quick. Cost of gas, parking, wear and tear etc. also needs to be worked out. UofT I could take the Go Train, which would give me time to read etc. It’s farther for sure, but could be less time wasted than if I’m stuck driving.

[Scrantonicity2]

I'm a mature student at OZ, so feel free to DM me if you have more specific questions. There are a fair number of profs in upper year classes who post all class recordings AND don't require attendance. 1L would probably be the trickiest in terms of missing class, because you don't have control over which profs you have and whether they're sticklers for attendance. In response to a point made earlier in the post, respectfully, I'd say there are potentially also many reasons to chose OZ over U of T,* and easier access to class recordings is one of them.

I would also do research into the kind of financial aid you're likely to qualify for. In my experience, if you have paid down past educational debt and have savings, you may get some minimal needs-based support, and potentially small amounts of merit-based funding if you have good grades. U of T obviously has a higher sticker price, but I know of some people whose financial aid was so good that they essentially had free rides. I don't know the specifics of their financial situation, so obviously YMMV. 

 

*I think a lot of this depends on whether you're more interested in the academic study of law (U of T probably wins) versus plentiful clinical opportunities (I'd say Oz wins here), and to some extent your political leanings (although, honestly, the politics of the student bodies at these schools is not as different as people say). U of T also has a better campus, although OZ's is not as bad as reputed.

[aurora borealis]

U of T 3L here.

 

Regarding clinical offerings: I don't know much about Osgoode's clinical programs, but a quick skim suggests that the only family-related clinical program might be Barbra Schlifer (someone at Osgoode please correct me if I'm wrong). My understanding is that CLASP and Parkdale do more traditional poverty law areas (eg housing). U of T's student clinic is Downtown Legal Services, which has a family law division (that I have done and am happy to chat about). There are also a couple family related externships (including also at Barbra Schlifer). I don't know much about those, though. Osgoode definitely has excellent clinical programs but if OP is looking for family law-specific clinical legal education I'm not sure Osgoode is better.

 

Course stuff: U of T generally doesn't schedule classes on Fridays. This sounds great until you want to take two important-to-you classes and they're at the same time. I second what others have said about the difficulty of getting access to recordings. Sometimes I'm jealous of people who go to Osgoode who can just watch the recordings back when they need to. Law school admin touts getting other people's notes as a substitute, but they can be mixed quality depending on the person.

[cities1000]

11 hours ago, ForeignPrune2024 said:

Most likely family law, but open to having my mind changed along the way. 
 

The commute is definitely a point to consider, and there are pros and cons to both schools. For Oz I would have to drive, which could mean a lot of idle time behind the wheel stuck in traffic depending on the timing, but if it’s not rush hour the commute is pretty quick. Cost of gas, parking, wear and tear etc. also needs to be worked out. UofT I could take the Go Train, which would give me time to read etc. It’s farther for sure, but could be less time wasted than if I’m stuck driving.

I also go to UofT so I will add my two cents here as well. 

I don't go to Osgoode, so I can't comment on their clinical opportunities, but I would say that UofT's are far more robust than people assume. Our Downtown Legal Services (community legal clinic) has a Family Law Division that 1Ls work in. We also have other family law externships, moots, and courses you can take. You can view all of our externships/clinic offerings here. For an up-to-date list, you can also control find the word "clinical" on this page to see all of the externship/clinic offerings this year. You can click into each offering to see what it is about/its structure. There is a sizeable contingent of students every year who go on to practice in family law, whether that be in firms, government, etc. My impression is that we have a strong alumni network in this field. 

If you are open to other areas of law and happen to change your mind, UofT will surely not close any doors for you. 

With regards to the commute, I personally would prefer the GO Train. You might struggle to do readings on the train, but if you can make it work then it might be beneficial for you. Regardless, it will give you some built-in down time and time for relaxation. You will probably need that. 

The point on attendance might be the biggest issue with choosing UofT. We have a rarely-enforced (and not really well-understood) policy where professors can refuse to let a student sit their final examination/evaluation if they miss more than 25% of classes in the term. Attendance is rarely tracked, so the policy is hard to enforce, but the policy does exist and faculty are aware of it. 

Recordings are also not distributed unless you have accommodations. Also, if you seek accommodations too often, and it gets close to the 25% threshold, the faculty might warn you that further accommodations might lead to withdrawal from the course and a potential academic leave. I have heard that people have been threatened with this in previous years. 

Edited October 15, 2024 by cities1000

[ForeignPrune2024]

This is very valuable information. Thank you so much for taking the time to type it out. 

[ForeignPrune2024]

10 hours ago, Scrantonicity2 said:

 

*I think a lot of this depends on whether you're more interested in the academic study of law (U of T probably wins) versus plentiful clinical opportunities (I'd say Oz wins here), and to some extent your political leanings (although, honestly, the politics of the student bodies at these schools is not as different as people say). U of T also has a better campus, although OZ's is not as bad as reputed.

Re: political leanings, do you mean that both schools are more politically heterogenous than reputed, or that U of T is as left leaning as Oz (given that I have heard Oz described as the social justice law school)? I'm curious now.

[MyWifesBoyfriend]

21 minutes ago, ForeignPrune2024 said:

political leanings, do you mean that both schools are more politically heterogenous than reputed, or that U of T is as left leaning as Oz (given that I have heard Oz described as the social justice law school)? I'm curious now

All moot points. The whole ‘political leaning’ discussion tends to invite very unproductive debates, since how a school ‘leans’ is an entirely subjective analysis. It’s safer to say that both schools are likely to ‘lean’ in the direction as any university campus would (progressive). This does not mean there will not be a diversity of views within the student cohort.

[Scrantonicity2]

22 minutes ago, ForeignPrune2024 said:

Re: political leanings, do you mean that both schools are more politically heterogenous than reputed, or that U of T is as left leaning as Oz (given that I have heard Oz described as the social justice law school)? I'm curious now.

Obviously take this with a grain of salt, because I can only speak from my own experiences/observations. But yes, I'd say that I've met quite a few lefty folks from U of T. There are plenty of things about Oz that have earned it the social justice law school reputation (clinics, journals, some of the profs, lots of the course offerings), but there's a strong contingent of students gunning for Big Law to represent banks and hedge funds. I'm guessing (although I don't know), that students at Oz are more likely to pay lip service to leftist politics, but having seen where folks end up articling/working, I'm not convinced that there is as big a difference between the lived-out politics of U of T versus Oz students. I do think that if you're a law student with a sincere commitment to social justice lawyering, Oz is probably more likely to foster that and provide appropriate opportunities for learning/placements - but, of course, I've never been a student at U of T law, so this is only a presumption.

[ForeignPrune2024]

58 minutes ago, MyWifesBoyfriend said:

All moot points. The whole ‘political leaning’ discussion tends to invite very unproductive debates, since how a school ‘leans’ is an entirely subjective analysis. It’s safer to say that both schools are likely to ‘lean’ in the direction as any university campus would (progressive). This does not mean there will not be a diversity of views within the student cohort.

Appreciate this perspective!

[Naj]

On 10/14/2024 at 12:08 PM, MyWifesBoyfriend said:

1L at U of T. Recorded lectures are not sent to students by default. You MAY be able to work something out with the professor, and they do send out their recorded lectures on a case-by-case basis. Without arranging accommodations with a professor though, you’ll need to be at classes in person. 

RE Osgoode (2L), all my current course lectures are recorded and posted. So, attending in person is effectively optional for the courses that don't have participation grading. 

[SNAILS]

If you go to Oz, you will be able to choose your courses in 2L/3L. If having recordings is important to you, the  make sure you look into courses/professors to make sure they are not one of those few who do not post recordings. My Criminal Procedure Class with Justice Greene did not post recordings. "Seminar" courses generally do not post recordings.

Regarding political leanings, Oz seems to have an integration of being very "social justicey" while also being pro corporate (or to put it better, having no noticeable criticism of working in corporate law). I'll try to illustrate this with some examples:

• A guy once said in class that landlords are quite justified in their motivation to kick prostitutes out of their building - it devalues the property and scares away other tenants. He got aggressively criticized for not understanding the plight of sex workers and the legitimacy of that profession. I know that some of those very vocal critics ended up on Bay Street. 
• Advocating that "the rich" should be taxed and also that law school debt should be forgiven and/or law school should be more subsidized by the taxpayer (lawyers, of course, will be high income earners who should by that theory pay more not less).
• BLM style events being well attended, but recruits for lawyers helping with racial issues still resulting in a shortage of willing candidates.

[ForeignPrune2024]

On 10/26/2024 at 6:19 AM, SNAILS said:

If you go to Oz, you will be able to choose your courses in 2L/3L. If having recordings is important to you, the  make sure you look into courses/professors to make sure they are not one of those few who do not post recordings. My Criminal Procedure Class with Justice Greene did not post recordings. "Seminar" courses generally do not post recordings.

Regarding political leanings, Oz seems to have an integration of being very "social justicey" while also being pro corporate (or to put it better, having no noticeable criticism of working in corporate law). I'll try to illustrate this with some examples:

• A guy once said in class that landlords are quite justified in their motivation to kick prostitutes out of their building - it devalues the property and scares away other tenants. He got aggressively criticized for not understanding the plight of sex workers and the legitimacy of that profession. I know that some of those very vocal critics ended up on Bay Street. 
• Advocating that "the rich" should be taxed and also that law school debt should be forgiven and/or law school should be more subsidized by the taxpayer (lawyers, of course, will be high income earners who should by that theory pay more not less).
• BLM style events being well attended, but recruits for lawyers helping with racial issues still resulting in a shortage of willing candidates.

All very helpful. Thank you!